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veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


JosephWongKS posted:

I guess that counts as a solid foundation for a healthy relationship in anime-land.

Contrast Kuroko, who's been tazed so often she's developed a minor tolerance. Or maybe a minor fetish, it's hard to tell with her.

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SpaceViking
Sep 2, 2011

Who put the stars in the sky? Coyote will say he did it himself, and it is not a lie.


Wallrod posted:


Also, that blog is an exemplary case of Poe's law, except for maybe that a parody wouldn't be so extensively and deeply characterised... she makes some salient points about sexism but there's a whole lot of (THIS ANIME IS GOOD BECAUSE ALL OF THE CHARACTERS ARE WOMEN TAKE THAT NECKBEARDS )

That part didn't bother me as much as the "THIS ANIME IS GOOD BECAUSE ALL THE BAD GUYS ARE MEN AND THE GOOD GUYS ARE WOMEN AND THE WOMEN SPEND ALL THEIR TIME BEATING UP THE MEN FOR BEING BAD"

SatansBestBuddy
Sep 26, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


Endorph posted:

I'm pretty sure every single other post in this thread is 'The fanservice is dumb but it's still a pretty good show,' though. The OP of this very thread even gives the show poo poo for it. I think we've all taken the show to task for what it does wrong. Nobody's really disagreeing with that lady on the fanservice is dumb front, either.

But that was the first season. This season I don't think they've shown so much as a single panty shot. Only one girl was seen in a bikini, briefly. Compared to the first season they've really cut down on the fanservice and focused more on the drama and action and humour, and this season is a lot stronger for it.

And the fanservice in the first season was never, ever as dumb and intrusive as it got in either Index season.

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen


I agree, I am extremely glad that I was wrong about how the stupid fanservice was likely to continue (watch me eat my words this week or something). Were it not for the fact that the first season of this show is pretty much required watching for the second, I would recommend it to friends wholeheartedly. This season so far has been good.

And regarding fanservice in Index: I still can't get over how stupidly egregious the washing machine scene was.

Redcrimson
Mar 3, 2008

Second-stage Midboss Syndrome


When did feminism in fiction change from "Hey guys, could we maybe get some positive female role-models and a better variety of female characters?" to "Down with the evil Patriarchy! No mercy to the vile penis-bearers!"

Having an all-girl cast is feminist-positive now? With that kind of logic, Queen's Blade would be a triumphant work of female empowerment.


SatansBestBuddy posted:

And the fanservice in the first season was never, ever as dumb and intrusive as it got in either Index season.

I couldn't make it past the Angel Fall arc. The writing was bad enough, but piling the fanservice on top of it was too much for me to take.

Redcrimson fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Jun 25, 2013

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Redcrimson posted:

Having an all-girl cast is feminist-positive now? With that kind of logic, Queen's Blade would be a triumphant work of female empowerment.
I don't think anyone said that, really, even on her site - she just enjoys shows with all-female or nearly all-female casts, because it's so rare to get any sort of meaningful interaction between two women in 'normal' shows. I don't think there's anything wrong with a show with an all-female or nearly all-female main cast, either. I really disagree with that Nasu post down below, too. I don't think women become 'mascots' or whatever if they're by and large the only focus of the show. With K-On, he has a point, but extending that point to say, Claymore or even Railgun here feels ridiculous. The characters change and grow and are treated seriously, there's just not that many male characters. I don't see how that's some sort of 'building a farm where there can be no antagonism,' whatever that means. Excising guys entirely because GRR gently caress MEN is silly, but if you just want to tell a story that focuses on women, then there's nothing wrong with that.

EDIT: To get back on-topic, yeah, even as an Index apologist I found myself skipping past a fair few scenes in the Angel Fall arc.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Jun 25, 2013

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

I'm sort of reminded of an interview that Kinoko Nasu (TYPE-MOON writer, creator of Tsukihime, Fate/stay night, etc.) gave that was posted in the VN thread:

quote:

- (interviewer says something about K-On having female superiority)

Nasu: No, instead of female superiority, that's just absence of men. It looks like girls are being prioritized, but if men don't appear to begin with, it's like nothing more than building a farm where there can be no antagonism. In that sense, women become more like mascots... it might mean looking down on them. Not by the creators, but by the audience. Speaking of my own works, people often tell me "Nasu-san, you really appreciate women's rights, because you write stories with strong girls in them", and I agreed too, but lately I started thinking that might not be the case. In Tsukihime and in Fate, the heroines Arcueid and Saber are the ones fighting on the front lines and the protagonists are behind them. In Kara no Kyoukai, the fighting is always left to the heroine Ryougi Shiki, and the protagonist Kokutou Mikiya becomes just the man who feeds the heroine. That composition is actually very male chauvinistic. When you think about physical strength and emotional strength, the latter is more difficult to achieve. Anyone can be strong if they pick up a weapon, but you can't become mentally strong just by obtaining a thing. In the works of Nasu Kinoko, strength in battle is possessed by the heroines, and the male characters symbolize emotional strength. When I noticed this, I felt like even I'm stuck in my ways [?] in some respects. For example Arcueid is said to be the strongest in the world of Type-Moon, but at the same time because she's in love with Shiki she tends to give in to what he says. At those times the man is the one put in a superior position. If it were truly even, Arcueid could use her superfluous power to send Shiki flying. Like "you two-timing bastard!" lol

(interviewer says some stuff about arcueid who cares)

Nasu: I'd want a truly powerful heroine to have the emotional specs to match. Rin and Saber and Arcueid aren't just dumb heroines. But, I can't say that the way the protagonists who only have emotional strength teach something to these perfect heroines doesn't look like a metaphor for how men win out in real society. If we're aiming for an even world, we shouldn't erase men like in K-On! or push the weakness of falling in love solely on the heroines, we should consider an equal relation.

SatansBestBuddy posted:

But that was the first season. This season I don't think they've shown so much as a single panty shot. Only one girl was seen in a bikini, briefly. Compared to the first season they've really cut down on the fanservice and focused more on the drama and action and humour, and this season is a lot stronger for it.

And the fanservice in the first season was never, ever as dumb and intrusive as it got in either Index season.
Things bode well for the future as well, as the next arc is also pretty strong. It'll probably be saved for Railgun S3 though.

Joshlemagne
Mar 6, 2013


Redcrimson posted:

When did feminism in fiction change from "Hey guys, could we maybe get some positive female role-models and a better variety of female characters?" to "Down with the evil Patriarchy! No mercy to the vile penis-bearers!"



Lumping all feminists together as a collective based on the most extreme position you can find on the internet by a self-described feminist is pretty much MRA territory. Not accusing you of anything but I think you are going a bit far there. There are lots of different feminists with lots of different opinions. Some of them even disagree with each other!

I'm honestly incredibly surprised at how self-aware that Nasu quote is. I wouldn't have expected that from the guy who made Fate/Stay Night.

Also I'm really having trouble remembering any egregious fanservice from Railgun S1 outside the gratuitous beach episode. Granted, that episode was very gratuitous. But they even made a point that Misaka was aware that she's an action girl and wears shorts under her skirt to avoid panty shots. Maybe I just blocked it out or am too numb from years of anime-watching to even notice.

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen


Joshlemagne posted:

Also I'm really having trouble remembering any egregious fanservice from Railgun S1 outside the gratuitous beach episode. Granted, that episode was very gratuitous.

There is a shower scene less than ten minutes into episode one. It's the only thing I've ever felt so uncomfortable watching that I skipped it entirely.

fake edit: well not "entirely" as to know what it is I had to have actually seen the start, but you get the point.

Nomyth
Mar 15, 2013

And if a Nyto get a attitude
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot


Joshlemagne posted:

I'm honestly incredibly surprised at how self-aware that Nasu quote is. I wouldn't have expected that from the guy who made Fate/Stay Night.

Didn't Nasu not want to make Tsukihime (or make it a visual novel) because he believed the adult game culture was awful and his artist Takeuchi pushed it on him?

vvv yeah, that. Nasu comes off to me as just a guy who wanted to tell stories about triumphing against odds with the help of a figuratively alien-ish lady and giant loving powerlevels everywhere.

Nomyth fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jun 25, 2013

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


He wanted it to be a visual novel, but he didn't want the porn, and he added it because they actually wanted to sell copies and visual novels without porn barely selled, especially at the time. Same thing happened with F/SN.

That's why the porn in both games is pretty much shoehorned in and quickly forgotten about, and why his latest VN doesn't have any porn.

SatansBestBuddy
Sep 26, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


Relambrien posted:

Were it not for the fact that the first season of this show is pretty much required watching for the second, I would recommend it to friends wholeheartedly. This season so far has been good.

Actually thinking on this a bit, why? So far, this season has been surprisingly self contained. Yes, you wouldn't know who anybody is right off the bat, but the general rules of the universe are explained in the first episode of this season, and you'll pick up how everyone relates to each other fairly quickly. I mean, we just had Touma's introduction again, complete with the scene where he first meets Misaka.

I guess if we get stuff relating to Level Upper or something later on, then yeah, you'll need to show somebody the first season so they'll understand what's going on, but otherwise I'd say this season is doing a fine job of introducing newbies to the To Aru universe. In fact it's probably the gold standard introduction now and it's not even halfway through yet.

So I say go ahead, introduce more people to this show! It's far and away the best this series has churned out.

Though I suppose if somebody wants to explore more, it's only fair to warn them about the rampant fanservice in the rest of the series.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


Relambrien you are completely wrong I jumped into Railgun S after it got props in the Spring thread, even after I had discarded Railgun 1 as a lost cause, and loved it. I only slightly regret watching Railgun 1.

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen


Okay I'll take your guys' word for it but personally I don't think I'd have any clue why I should care about what's happening if I hadn't seen both Index and season 1

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Relambrien posted:

Okay I'll take your guys' word for it but personally I don't think I'd have any clue why I should care about what's happening if I hadn't seen both Index and season 1

Why should you care what's happening given that you've seen those? What part of those makes you care about what's happening?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Clarste posted:

Why should you care what's happening given that you've seen those? What part of those makes you care about what's happening?
Investment in the characters?

That said I wouldn't say Index is necessary, since only Misaka makes major appearances there and she obviously gets enough development and screentime in the first season of Railgun to make you care.

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen


Just from the events of Railgun S, I don't have any sort of insight or knowledge into how the city works. All I know is there are these superpowered kids, at least one of whom is a hugely overpowered mass murderer. He's mass murdering the clones of another kid, to make him more powerful. I have no idea why this whole thing seems to be important enough that it's a huge government conspiracy; that part doesn't really seem to have any justification and I just have to roll with it. With Index, I know that there is a huge worldwide conflict between secularism and religion and that (Index spoilers) a shadowy Big Brother-type figure named Aleister Crowley, who has serious magician connections, appears to be either doing research into the nature of magic itself or building an army with which to stand up to the magicians. With that in mind, Accelerator and ITEM make a lot more sense.

Granted, I don't learn most of that until after the Sisters arc in Index, but crucially I know that there is a massive underground battle being fought by science and magic, and interpreting Accelerator as a weapon being produced by Academy City to fight against magicians makes sense at the time the arc comes up. There is then some measure of justification in the Level 6 Shift project, though clearly its cruelty suggests something far more sinister is going on.

There are also these three other random girls who seem to be completely irrelevant to the main character, but she's treating them as extremely important for some reason? Also her roommate seems to care about her a little too much in a bunch of different ways. I have no idea why the MC puts up with this and it's actually kind of frustrating. From Railgun season 1, I can see how Mikoto treasures the normal friendships she was able to forge despite her celebrity status, and how instrumental Kuroko was in helping her do that. Now I actually care about the other characters.

And of course without Index I don't give a flying gently caress about Touma so that whole scene and any of his future appearances mean absolutely nothing to me.

Now with that out of the way, in full disclosure I get very easily lost when I jump into any sort of media outside of its origin. I would not have liked Fate/Zero without Fate/Stay Night. It's hard for me to watch television dramas because even if they're episodic it's unsettling to be thrown into a bunch of characters I know nothing about. So if you actually can care about what's happening without any prior Raildex exposure, I applaud you but I honestly can't personally see how.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Relambrien posted:

Just from the events of Railgun S, I don't have any sort of insight or knowledge into how the city works. All I know is there are these superpowered kids, at least one of whom is a hugely overpowered mass murderer. He's mass murdering the clones of another kid, to make him more powerful. I have no idea why this whole thing seems to be important enough that it's a huge government conspiracy; that part doesn't really seem to have any justification and I just have to roll with it. With Index, I know that there is a huge worldwide conflict between secularism and religion and that (Index spoilers) a shadowy Big Brother-type figure named Aleister Crowley, who has serious magician connections, appears to be either doing research into the nature of magic itself or building an army with which to stand up to the magicians. With that in mind, Accelerator and ITEM make a lot more sense.

Granted, I don't learn most of that until after the Sisters arc in Index, but crucially I know that there is a massive underground battle being fought by science and magic, and interpreting Accelerator as a weapon being produced by Academy City to fight against magicians makes sense at the time the arc comes up. There is then some measure of justification in the Level 6 Shift project, though clearly its cruelty suggests something far more sinister is going on.

Technically no, that doesn't make any sense. Honestly, the more you know about the Index universe, the less sense it makes. Simply put, Magicians don't care about Level 5s. Level 5s are fodder, as far as they're concerned, because Magic is stupid overpowered. I don't think they'd care much about Level 6 either. Someone who hadn't seen Index would probably be in a better position to make educated guesses about the true nature of Academy City based on what we've seen.

I mean, just the fact that the City clearly doesn't care what kind of person gets the ultimate psychic powers should tell you that they have no real hope for Accelerator as a weapon. I mean how would they expect to control someone like that?

quote:

There are also these three other random girls who seem to be completely irrelevant to the main character, but she's treating them as extremely important for some reason?

They're her friends? Why exactly does this need an explanation? Normal people have friends.

quote:

And of course without Index I don't give a flying gently caress about Touma so that whole scene and any of his future appearances mean absolutely nothing to me.

They introduced him with a flashback, and he's clearly a love interest.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Jun 26, 2013

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Different people consume media in different ways and there's no right or wrong way of doing it. I don't think there's any need to have a debate about whether or not you need to have seen seventy different spin-offs before watching S - since the answer to that would vary from person to person.

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen


I had a whole post typed up to respond but I think Endorph's right, no one outside of Clarste and I probably cares about this so I'll drop it. If you want to talk about it further then shoot me a PM or something.


vvvv We good

Outer Science fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Jun 26, 2013

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Well, I don't really care either, so there we go. Carry on.

VictualSquid
Feb 29, 2012

Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.


We do know Academy city's official goal. It is to train strong espers.
We also know that there seems to be a more secret variant to make espers that are good at combat.

I don't think those are goals that sound too stupid. And the discovered plans make sense for someone who thinks that you need to burn down a village to make an omelet.

What those combat espers are supposed to be used for is unknown. But it doesn't actually matter at this point in the story.
Maybe they are intended to fight supervillians or defend the country, or take over the world or fight alien invaders. None of those is actually contradicted by anything happening in the city.
The only variant that makes no sense would be that they are intended to fight foreign espers or magicans or somthing like those. Because then Touma's power would be seen as a very useful power instead of a useless level 0 thing.

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012




Index anime spoiler: Isn't the end goal of Academy City some Satanism stuff, considering how the boss of Academy City is called Aleister Crowley?

Edit: VVV whoops, sorry. VVV

Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Jun 26, 2013

VictualSquid
Feb 29, 2012

Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.


Lucy Heartfilia posted:

Isn't the end goal of Academy City some Satanism stuff, considering how the boss of Academy City is called Aleister Crowley?
I have never read the novels and I fast forwarded over most of the index anime, so I have no idea what this refers too.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


Lucy Heartfilia posted:

Isn't the end goal of Academy City some Satanism stuff, considering how the boss of Academy City is called Aleister Crowley?

Not Satanism, quite the opposite in fact.
Its based on the invocation of Angels, and since the existing ones are rather stuck in their roles, why not make some. After you can make Angels there's just one more step for a megalomaniac

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012




veekie posted:

Not Satanism, quite the opposite in fact.
Its based on the invocation of Angels, and since the existing ones are rather stuck in their roles, why not make some. After you can make Angels there's just one more step for a megalomaniac


Ah, I see. I swear I've watched every episode of Index, but it's really hard to remember anything from that show.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


I just pretend magic doesn't exist and the inherent contradictions of Academy City (giving massive power to individuals yet enforcing a panopticon-like order upon the populace) are simply because the place wasn't built to last and was engineered by maniacs to churn out as much Science as it can before it is inevitably destroyed.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


Phobophilia posted:

I just pretend magic doesn't exist and the inherent contradictions of Academy City (giving massive power to individuals yet enforcing a panopticon-like order upon the populace) are simply because the place wasn't built to last and was engineered by maniacs to churn out as much Science as it can before it is inevitably destroyed.

The next arc might give you some trouble then.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


Fuuuuuck that I don't care about wizards how do you even relate to them.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


What exactly is the difference between magic and what Misaka does?

Yasser Arafatwa
Jan 13, 2009



Phobophilia posted:

Fuuuuuck that I don't care about wizards how do you even relate to them.

But Stiyl/Stiyr is so awesome.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Endorph posted:

What exactly is the difference between magic and what Misaka does?
Functionally, not much. It's not really the technicalities of magic vs. science that make them different anyway, but rather the inherit structures of the two sides. Academy City has a fairly clear hierarchy, and it's pretty easy to wrap your head around why things are the way they are once you suspend disbelief for there being espers in the first place. The presence of factions such as the seven Level 5's makes potentially interesting dynamics and reveals.

Conversely, I really have no idea what the deal is with the magic side's various factions and whenever the novels do try to elaborate or develop them they come off as a throw poo poo against the wall and see what sticks. There's nothing to really "look forward" to in the same way you would be interested in meeting the next Level 5. Basically the structure of that side is really dumb and doesn't fit in very well with the Railgun world. I would also say the magic side is a lot more shameless, like the one Russian orthodox nun who wears exclusively bondage belts or something.

Also any magic side bullshit is going to involve Touma.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?


Whenever someone mentions Magic to me, this immediately comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mQaIMYIvYU

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

Endorph posted:

What exactly is the difference between magic and what Misaka does?

One of the major differences between esper powers in the Railgun/Index world and magic is that with esper powers you are literally locked into having one power/ability were as with magic there is nothing really stopping you from say picking up a new magic tome and learning a completely different magic, like say if you were a fire mage you could go and learn ice magic.

So to sum it up espers have only one power that they can master to a very high degree were as mages can have multiple powers.

Myurton fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jun 26, 2013

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


I didn't mean literally, I meant why could they relate to one and not the other.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

Oh in that regard espers warp reality with their own mind were as mages warp it by using naturally occurring magic energies and apparently the two types of energies don't get along with each other.

Edit: All of this is by the way explained during the course of the two Index animes, and some of season 1 of Railgun if you watch closely.

Myurton fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jun 26, 2013

Chillyrabbit
Oct 24, 2012

The only sword wielding rabbit on the internet



Ultra Carp

Myurton posted:

Oh in that regard espers warp reality with their own mind were as mages warp it by using naturally occurring magic energies and apparently the two types of energies don't get along with each other.

Edit: All of this is by the way explained during the course of the two Index animes, and some of season 1 of Railgun if you watch closely.

Okay that makes a hell of a lot more sense than the broken terrible english of the light novels.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


Here's my two cents on Railgun season 1, someone who knows absolutely nothing about Index except that Touma is the main character.

It was not supposed to be good, but it was still decent. It seemed like it was supposed to be an in depth introduction to the setting that made a few points clear: 1) Academy City is run by profit praising dickwads that want to exploit the gifted children of this city for profitable scientific research to create practical weapons out of them. 2)Academy City was designed around that purpose, and for no other reason.

It is also a prolonged introduction to the main characters and their lives. It gives us something to care about (not in a creepy fanservice way I mean), to an extent. And that was it. The plot arc was ok in its own right, but it felt tacked on rather than being a central component. You could watch Railgun S without the first season, but it would be a bit like watching Fumoffu? without having seen any of FMP. You don't need to watch FMP for Fumoffu? to be enjoyable, but watching some of FMP gives you a good background and introduction to the characters and their relationships. That said, Railgun season 1 is far better than FMP and is mildly entertaining in its own right.

But is it good? Not exceptionally. More like a 7/10 on my scale, whereas Railgun S gets an 8.5/10 for now.

Cubemario
Apr 3, 2009


I think how much you enjoy season 1 depends on how much you can get behind the setting and characters. When it comes to entertainment, a lot of it for me, is what my expectations are going in. If someone told me Railgun season 1 was action heavy, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed it much at all.

Another big factor is how you watch a show. There's some shows which are way easier for me to watch if I can just burn through it all. Doing it this way prevents me from setting up false expectations and being disappointed when the show does something else. I imagine I'd take Railgun Season 1 more negatively if I had watched it as it aired. That said, season 2 is so much better and I hope it can stay this way.

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ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


Yea, that's a good way to think about it. It isn't a very serious show, so objectivity doesn't mean much, and the fanservice is definitely going to polarize opinions on this show, so take it as you will.

Still, I don't think it's anywhere as shamefully terrible as that blog made it out to be, even from an objective standpoint. There's plenty worse out there.

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