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veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


AnacondaHL posted:

(13) Why were the Sisters okay with showing Touma all of the clones and explaining in blunt detail what happened? They gave the passcode check, he failed... and then they treated him like he should know about the experiment anyways...? Was it because of his cancelling ability?

There are multiple possible interpretations.
-The emotional program download worked(the administrator sent out a spurious status message to decieve). They now know this sucks and want out, so they get sloppy, allow Touma to find out, and hopefully get something resolved before they're all dead.

-The Sisters were already developing emotions and desires on their own. Hence 'accidentally' meeting up with Misaka Original, having fun with cats and Gekotas. They naturally like Touma because he's a harem protagonist, so they share anything they weren't explicitly forbidden to mention. Particularly, 10032 expected to die that night, so it would be the last time they'd meet. And the cat too.

-The Sisters already wanted out for a while, even if no individual Sister can object, the MISAKA Network as a whole has a sense of self preservation. Completion of the experiment is not conducive to their continued survival, but it is also the only reason they are being kept around at present(consider the logistics of feeding and housing twenty thousand girls who apparently eat like monsters if the ice cream is any indication, before any special needs), so they can't just go renegade even if there wasn't an override in the system. What they can do is following orders to the dot, and no further, attracting the attention of persons likely to intervene.

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Redcrimson
Mar 3, 2008

Second-stage Midboss Syndrome


AnacondaHL posted:

(13) Why were the Sisters okay with showing Touma all of the clones and explaining in blunt detail what happened? They gave the passcode check, he failed... and then they treated him like he should know about the experiment anyways...? Was it because of his cancelling ability?

Well, Touma does attract women for no good reason. Why should a horde of clones be any different?

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

AnacondaHL posted:

(13) Why were the Sisters okay with showing Touma all of the clones and explaining in blunt detail what happened? They gave the passcode check, he failed... and then they treated him like he should know about the experiment anyways...? Was it because of his cancelling ability?

I take it as that they were forbidden from providing details on the Level 6 shift project without the passcode, but that the existence of multiple clones and their hive mind ability falls under the original Radio Noise project, not the Level 6 Shift, and was thus falls outside the boundary of the encryption.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


To be fair the logistics are completely borked how the hell does an army of clones with a distinctive NVG headwear move around in the middle of a city without being spotted?

But yeah, the whole point is that the conspiracy is massive and the entire city is actively working against Misaka. Though the solution I would have gone for is bring it to the public's attention and engineer a scandal that will burn the city to its core. Human cloning is still illegal and even if the city has alot of clout, it only has so much and something like this coming out will mean a massive loss of prestige.

(but that's me ignore my fanfiction garbage ramblings)

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Phobophilia posted:

To be fair the logistics are completely borked how the hell does an army of clones with a distinctive NVG headwear move around in the middle of a city without being spotted?

But yeah, the whole point is that the conspiracy is massive and the entire city is actively working against Misaka. Though the solution I would have gone for is bring it to the public's attention and engineer a scandal that will burn the city to its core. Human cloning is still illegal and even if the city has alot of clout, it only has so much and something like this coming out will mean a massive loss of prestige.

(but that's me ignore my fanfiction garbage ramblings)

The city has more clout than you think. Eventually (novel spoilers)it declares war on Russia and the Vatican. And wins. Sort of. Anyway, I'm reasonably sure they can decide to screw international law if they feel like it.

SatansBestBuddy
Sep 26, 2010

by FactsAreUseless


Phobophilia posted:

But yeah, the whole point is that the conspiracy is massive and the entire city is actively working against Misaka. Though the solution I would have gone for is bring it to the public's attention and engineer a scandal that will burn the city to its core. Human cloning is still illegal and even if the city has alot of clout, it only has so much and something like this coming out will mean a massive loss of prestige.

But again, the ENTIRE city is working against Misaka. The number of people who already know about the experiment is in the hundreds already, and they have such strict control over the city that I have no doubt they also control the local media, so any proof Misaka could get to show that the city is up to something rotten would have to be delivered to a newsgroup outside of the city, one with enough clout to spread the news internationally.

The worst part is that I don't think even that would stop the experiments, they'd just go back into hiding like they did for the first few thousand. The only reason Misaka ever learned about them was that they started doing them outside for... some reason. Wait hold up why are they outside again? I feel like they covered that somewhere but I can't remember it...

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


SatansBestBuddy posted:

Wait hold up why are they outside again? I feel like they covered that somewhere but I can't remember it...

I don't think they ever give a reason. It's probably just part of the original simulation they received and they don't want to deviate from it too much. I mean, how exactly does killing "20000 slimes" level him up anyway? It doesn't make much sense, so we just have to assume their models are correct. They're probably just as confused as we are. "Taking orders from a machine" was also a minor theme of the arc.

AtomikKrab
Jul 17, 2010

Keep on GOP rolling rolling rolling rolling.


20000 adaptive slimes. Also there are multiple factions at play in academy city, some of which are quite quite aware of Touma and his Imagine Breaker. Don't assume every faction is out to do the level 6 Shift. Remember how Girl-who-got-put-on-a-bus was doling out money cards to disrupt the experiment, they cannot afford attention. Just because they have a lot of backing doesn't mean heads wouldn't roll, which would disrupt the experiment and they cannot afford ANY large disruption like shutting down for a few months would cause. Also there is probably a "What if Imagine Breaker beats up Accelerator?" faction out there

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


Clarste posted:

I don't think they ever give a reason. It's probably just part of the original simulation they received and they don't want to deviate from it too much. I mean, how exactly does killing "20000 slimes" level him up anyway? It doesn't make much sense, so we just have to assume their models are correct. They're probably just as confused as we are. "Taking orders from a machine" was also a minor theme of the arc.

The idea is to use increasingly difficult combat simulations, with the cumulative combat and power experience of the Network and increasingly varied environment to challenge Accelerator's Vector Control ability and force it to evolve through a predicted series of scenarios. Both the Sisters and Accelerator are evolving through the fight, the Sisters even gained levels fairly rapidly as a whole.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?


Phobophilia posted:

To be fair the logistics are completely borked how the hell does an army of clones with a distinctive NVG headwear move around in the middle of a city without being spotted?

But yeah, the whole point is that the conspiracy is massive and the entire city is actively working against Misaka. Though the solution I would have gone for is bring it to the public's attention and engineer a scandal that will burn the city to its core. Human cloning is still illegal and even if the city has alot of clout, it only has so much and something like this coming out will mean a massive loss of prestige.

(but that's me ignore my fanfiction garbage ramblings)
I wonder if someone could photoshop the cover of the (excellent) movie "Moon" to have Misaka on the cover.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008
This space intentionally left blank.


The thing is, Academy City has alot of enemies. This kind of Mad Unethical Science can't be rare, the scientists have broken alot of eggs to make their omelette. It's inevitable that some of those eggshells are sharpening knives and looking to make an opening. Maybe Mikasa should exploit that. Sure, she'd be betraying her homeland, but at this point they started it and she'd be emotionally justified bringing death and anarchy to the city that used her.

The use of the clones is probably an open secret at this point, and they're banking on using this tech to gain an unstoppable edge on the planet over trivial diplomacies such as "international law" and "scientific ethics". And besides, it's not the only application of cloning technology.

Somewhere inside Academy city, there lies another cloning project to pump lanky violent young men set free to mug and threaten people. It's the only explanation for why there are so many creepy gangsters hanging around harassing and especially threatening pretty young girls. Where the sisters project was to feed xp to the top Level 5, this cloning project is designed to feed valuable xp the multitudes of level 3s and 4s.

fivegears4reverse
Apr 4, 2007

by R. Guyovich


Phobophilia posted:

The thing is, Academy City has alot of enemies. This kind of Mad Unethical Science can't be rare, the scientists have broken alot of eggs to make their omelette. It's inevitable that some of those eggshells are sharpening knives and looking to make an opening. Maybe Mikasa should exploit that. Sure, she'd be betraying her homeland, but at this point they started it and she'd be emotionally justified bringing death and anarchy to the city that used her.

Emotionally justified maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe. I think you're forgetting that she has been doing everything in her power to not be a monster to stop a monster. It's obvious that the whole experience is hurting her on every conceivable level, but she's still trying to avoid causing undue casualties, and DOESN'T want to be a murderer to get what she wants. She's already sickened at the thought of what the murderer she's trying to stop is doing to her clones.

Put it into perspective: Accelerator has killed over 10k clones, right? If she helped "burn the city to the ground", either by her own hand or by engineering a means that others could use to do so, she'd be affecting millions of lives, and as awful as Academy City's dark side really is, not everyone living there deserves to have what would happen if the Magic side (or the whole world really) got carte blanche to stomp the place into a carpet stain. This is all generously assuming she could even gain enough influence to set such a thing up to begin with. The whole point of Misaka's actions is that she's trying to stop an rear end in a top hat from being an rear end in a top hat and to save lives, not to become an rear end in a top hat and get more people killed so she can feel emotionally secure.

The problem here is that, unlike Touma, Misaka is depicted having her ideals and abilities tested to such an extent that there IS no easy solution, there IS no win button, there IS no scenario in which people aren't getting killed over the experiment. Everything she's doing is systematically being undone or ignored, because at the end of the day she's ONE Level 5 against a city that made her what she is, and she's so far removed from being the biggest cheese on the block it's actually kind of sad. She's breaking under the pressure and doesn't want to be. She hinted about what she might end up being driven to do, was given an answer that would crush absolutely everyone involved BUT the bastards who actually got the ball rolling to begin with. Kuroko, of all people, told her to her face that if it came down to the safety of the city, or her "love" for Misaka, the city came first. Not because she supports what's going on, but because the city is full of people that Judgement protects, innocent people who aren't involved with whatever Misaka is fighting.

If the only solution to Misaka's problems is to somehow ruin the lives of hundreds, thousands, or even millions of innocents, it's not an action she could bring herself to take. That's why she ultimately makes the choice she does: She's not Accelerator.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

AnacondaHL posted:

(13) Why were the Sisters okay with showing Touma all of the clones and explaining in blunt detail what happened? They gave the passcode check, he failed... and then they treated him like he should know about the experiment anyways...? Was it because of his cancelling ability?
It's another one of those dumb scenes from Index rather than Railgun. They didn't really bother to have Touma find out about the experiments organically like Mikoto, so they had to work exposition in there somehow. Like they always do in Index.

So the answer is it's bad writing I guess.

JosephWongKS
Apr 4, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo


Man, things sure got hell of a lot darker between Season 1 and this season. Not that I don't enjoy watching this season, mind you - it just feels like I'm watching two entirely differently series, which coincidentally happen to have characters who share the same names and similar appearances.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

veekie posted:

The idea is to use increasingly difficult combat simulations, with the cumulative combat and power experience of the Network and increasingly varied environment to challenge Accelerator's Vector Control ability and force it to evolve through a predicted series of scenarios. Both the Sisters and Accelerator are evolving through the fight, the Sisters even gained levels fairly rapidly as a whole.
it always kind of annoyed me how this is something we're told, not shown, because Accelerator seems to be able to slaughter clone 1 and clone 10,000 equally effortlessly. Why is he growing when the only work he seems to do is coming up with creative ways to finish them off?

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


To be fair, we're also never told what exactly the Levels are measuring, so maybe getting more creative with his powers is exactly what they want out of him? Personally I doubt that though. Everything they ever say about Level 6 implies that it's "absolute power" or "artificial divinity" or other extreme superlatives, so I don't see how getting merely better at his powers is going to get him there.

This is just making stuff up, but the only explanation that makes sense to me is that AIM fields resonate in some way when an ESPer dies. Which also explains why the scientists insist that he kills them instead of just defeating them.

Dan7el
Dec 7, 2008



Bakanogami posted:

I take it as that they were forbidden from providing details on the Level 6 shift project without the passcode, but that the existence of multiple clones and their hive mind ability falls under the original Radio Noise project, not the Level 6 Shift, and was thus falls outside the boundary of the encryption.
I agree with this overall assessment. The clones aren't providing explicit details about the specific experiment but rather explaining their existence to Touma as he's obviously confused and upset.

Nate RFB posted:

It's another one of those dumb scenes from Index rather than Railgun. They didn't really bother to have Touma find out about the experiments organically like Mikoto, so they had to work exposition in there somehow. Like they always do in Index. So the answer is it's bad writing I guess.
I don't think this is completely true. Touma meets 10031 and 10032 "organically". The infodump in the alleyway details their existence in-mass -- enough to try to make him stop worrying about them. (Next Episode Anime Spoiler) Touma finds out the details of the experiment by reading the paper-based information Mikoto has hidden in her bear underneath her bed while hiding there from the dorm supervisor. He realizes Mikoto isn't complicit by noticing the paperwork was downloaded from a D-Level level terminal when it's A-Level information -- something that would only happen if a hacker did it. Meaning, the info was stolen. Meaning, Mikoto is not willingly involved in the experiment.

Both Accelerator and the Sisters are supposed to grow due to this experiment. We get a slight view of this when (spoilering because I can't recall if this happened in this particular series or in another) the one Sister plants an explosive such that Accelerator walks over it and then she detonates it. You can see a definite amount of pre-planning involved in the conflict. However, it's hard to see if Accelerator actually ever grew much. Everything comes so easy to him. In my opinion, nothing the Sisters do is amazingly inventive, though. You'd think after 10031 attempts, they'd have a better plan of attack. Maybe the progression is like a home loan where you pay massive amounts of interest for the first 20 years or so and then only really pay off the house for last 5 to 10 years or so?

What I think this series is doing a really great job at is setting up Mikoto such that's she's absolutely desperate. We don't see this at all in the light novels or original Index anime. We just follow Touma around and he (Anime Spoiler) finds her ready to fight Accelerator in a hopeless battle and die for the sake of the Sisters.

Clarste posted:

To be fair, we're also never told what exactly the Levels are measuring, so maybe getting more creative with his powers is exactly what they want out of him? Personally I doubt that though. Everything they ever say about Level 6 implies that it's "absolute power" or "artificial divinity" or other extreme superlatives, so I don't see how getting merely better at his powers is going to get him there.

This is just making stuff up, but the only explanation that makes sense to me is that AIM fields resonate in some way when an ESPer dies. Which also explains why the scientists insist that he kills them instead of just defeating them.
My guess is the difference between a level 6 and level 5 would be the same as a level 5 and a level 4. The LN's explain, briefly, some of the details but it's stuff like, "can generate 200 million volts of electricity" versus "can generate 1 billion volts of electricity" and "can accelerate a coin to the speed of sound" versus "can accelerate a coin to 3 times the speed of sound", etc. Same goes with teleporters like Kukuro. If she could teleport, say a couple of kilometers and handle a few tons at a time, she'd be a level 5. I guess.

I like your idea about the AIM dispersion fields affecting Accelerator in some way when the Sisters die, but again that's not implied or discussed either. It's just that the Tree Diagram said to do this, and so we will do this. Plus, the clones are not designed for longevity. No one wants to end up with a few thousand wounded and useless clones, now do they? Especially when they'll only live for a few more months or so anyway, right? Might as well complete the process and finish each one off.

Regardless, I think the whole level 6 thing is just the author's attempt to have a reason for the Sisters existence and such. He never really intended to make something of it other than its purpose such that Touma gets to be a hero and Mikoto gets to (Anime/LN Spoiler) fall in love with Touma because of him saving her.

Superuser008
Feb 7, 2011


My impression of the experiments is that each one is at least somewhat controlled and each has a specific goal or objective; they aren't just random events. Also, Accelerator is powerful indeed, but far from invincible. Seems to me he'd be quite vulnerable to biological attacks...load up some good 'ol bubonic plague (or some other nasty bug) in a dispenser hidden in a sewer grating, trigger it as he walks by, plan the funeral. Or any number of methods of poisoning.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


Sindai posted:

it always kind of annoyed me how this is something we're told, not shown, because Accelerator seems to be able to slaughter clone 1 and clone 10,000 equally effortlessly. Why is he growing when the only work he seems to do is coming up with creative ways to finish them off?

Actually, they're making him actually need to make an effort now. The first 10,000 seem to be trying to figure out the nature of his ability, whether it works against a wide spectrum of forces, whether it functions on surprise, whether it works against a variety of different attack modes. They could probably have halved the necessary battles if they gave the Sisters an Accelerator dossier.

AnacondaHL
Feb 15, 2009


Superuser008 posted:

My impression of the experiments is that each one is at least somewhat controlled and each has a specific goal or objective; they aren't just random events. Also, Accelerator is powerful indeed, but far from invincible. Seems to me he'd be quite vulnerable to biological attacks...load up some good 'ol bubonic plague (or some other nasty bug) in a dispenser hidden in a sewer grating, trigger it as he walks by, plan the funeral. Or any number of methods of poisoning.

I don't know if that would work, he's already stated that he keeps his ability on reflect by default, and he sure didn't have any problem reflecting the biological mass of 10031's exploding body. Food poisoning seems hilarious though.

veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


AnacondaHL posted:

I don't know if that would work, he's already stated that he keeps his ability on reflect by default, and he sure didn't have any problem reflecting the biological mass of 10031's exploding body. Food poisoning seems hilarious though.

Upcoming episode spoiler
He can be affected by ambient gaseous chemical attacks. If there simply isn't enough oxygen in the area he can't breath for example, and his reflection needs to be adjusted to selectively only let 'safe' air through. Filtering out everything but oxygen wouldn't work either, you need a certain ratio to be fit to breath. So using electricity to ionize the air in the entire area might do the trick, since he can't affect the electricity at range either.

Anime_Otaku
Dec 6, 2009


I think that even though both previous seasons had a big fight where Misaka shows off her powers her reaction to seeing Accelerator kill 10031 really brought it home how potentially dangerous the Level 5 espers can really be when they want to be, I doubt much of Academy City would be left standing if they'd used Meltdowner clones for the experiment (assuming she'd have the same reaction as Misaka).

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3



College Slice

Anime_Otaku posted:

I think that even though both previous seasons had a big fight where Misaka shows off her powers her reaction to seeing Accelerator kill 10031 really brought it home how potentially dangerous the Level 5 espers can really be when they want to be, I doubt much of Academy City would be left standing if they'd used Meltdowner clones for the experiment (assuming she'd have the same reaction as Misaka).

The newest episode kinda tops that in some ways

Touma really is a much better character from the Railgun side of things. Honestly I like it this way, we just see his actions and what he says and leave the internal POV to the others.

Flappy Bert
Dec 11, 2011

I have seen the light, and it is a string

I know they're not exactly going to change the source material much and it does come from Index of all series, but it's really leaving a bad taste in my mouth that the end of all Misaka's trouble is going to be Good Guy Touma showing up out of the blue and bailing her out.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?


DerLeo posted:

I know they're not exactly going to change the source material much and it does come from Index of all series, but it's really leaving a bad taste in my mouth that the end of all Misaka's trouble is going to be Good Guy Touma showing up out of the blue and bailing her out.
I personally think in this instance there would be no other choice for her. Well, I did think about one option she could have. Remember Nunotaba said that if she were able to implant more emotions and ill feeling towards the experiments, maybe Accelerator would stop his onslaught? Mikoto knocks out 10032, steals her goggles and F2000 and then just drops it and begs to not fight. That'd be anticlimactic as hell though.

Mikoto has had her fair share of being able to solve everything. Look at how she handled the AIM burst manifestation and Telestina on the highway, as well as overcoming the man-made railgun at the very end.

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



Falken posted:

I personally think in this instance there would be no other choice for her. Well, I did think about one option she could have. Remember Nunotaba said that if she were able to implant more emotions and ill feeling towards the experiments, maybe Accelerator would stop his onslaught? Mikoto knocks out 10032, steals her goggles and F2000 and then just drops it and begs to not fight. That'd be anticlimactic as hell though.

Not really, if the writer was interested in Mikoto solving things herself she would, Accelerator's powers are only as impenetrable as they're written to be. Jojo is proof that any insane bullshit power can have a weakness. But Touma is the main character of the main storyline and that's really ruining the impact of what's happening in the much better (in my opinion) side story version.

The Evil Thing
Jul 3, 2010


DerLeo posted:

I know they're not exactly going to change the source material much and it does come from Index of all series, but it's really leaving a bad taste in my mouth that the end of all Misaka's trouble is going to be Good Guy Touma showing up out of the blue and bailing her out.
Right with you there. Even worse, he doesn't even have to work for it. He basically uses the information Misaka gathered herself, then waltzes into her fight and starts spouting his usual one-dimensional pop humanism crap as if that's ever convinced anyone. In Index, I guess it's all in aid of defining his character, but seeing this arc from Misaka's perspective really made me annoyed at what he did here.

I know it's silly to judge a spinoff as a standalone work, but I can't help but wonder what the audience is supposed to take away from this arc. What is the story trying to say? I just can't think of anything good.


Falken posted:

I personally think in this instance there would be no other choice for her. Well, I did think about one option she could have. Remember Nunotaba said that if she were able to implant more emotions and ill feeling towards the experiments, maybe Accelerator would stop his onslaught? Mikoto knocks out 10032, steals her goggles and F2000 and then just drops it and begs to not fight. That'd be anticlimactic as hell though.
I quite like this idea. Unfortunately, would she think to try it? I can't remember if she ever got that information, but regardless, she seems rather... confrontational. I agree that she stands no chance in a straight-up fight, which is fair enough, but the arc's resolution still disappoints me.

legoman727
Mar 13, 2010

by exmarx


For me, it's Misaka becoming the sidekick in her own story that really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know they really had no choice since this came from Index, but still. gently caress Touma.

Dan7el
Dec 7, 2008



So, I watched Episode 14 and then the same original Index. There were a few differences, but only minor. They could've used the same exact footage. There were no massive point of view angles that would've been missed either way. I'm interested to see how the next couple of episodes handle the scenes from Mikoto's POV.

I don't know what it is the Mikoto has against bridges....

Mikoto and Touma have fought in the past. If Mikoto really wanted to kill Touma, all she'd have to do is railgun a coin into his forehead. His magical hand can't stop a 100 yen piece traveling three times the speed of sound. I don't think.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Dan7el posted:

His magical hand can't stop a 100 yen piece traveling three times the speed of sound. I don't think.

You'd think, but the series is strangely inconsistent about this. One scene in the manga (that wasn't animated) actually does show him block it, but that doesn't make any sense given how his power is portrayed in other places. Which I guess just means that he can but it's impossible to explain why he can.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Because its powered by the almighty force of narrative convenience. His hand does whatever it needs to do, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

Blhue fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jul 13, 2013

Chillyrabbit
Oct 24, 2012

The only sword wielding rabbit on the internet




Ultra Carp

Maybe the right hand being close to the electricity of the coin stops it?

Outer Science
Dec 21, 2008

Daisangen


I've never particularly liked or hated Touma; I just treat him as a device on which to dump the plot and I'm pretty okay with that. That said, seeing things from Mikoto's perspective makes him come across as a lot more of a godsend than he does from his own perspective (expectedly).

Mikoto is fighting against an entire city, with seemingly endless ability to completely ignore her attempts to stop their plans. She's completely at the end of her rope, she doesn't have a single ally in the world that can help her, and then all of a sudden this totally random guy steps in and is like "Yo I'm on your side, I'll handle this." Leaving the gender aspects of the whole thing aside, that's a pretty powerful moment. You have nothing, you're completely in despair, you have exhausted every single option available to you and you've resigned yourself to dying in a desperate bid to do something, and then someone tells you you were never alone in the first place.

If there actually is something to take away from seeing this from Mikoto's perspective, it's that no matter what kind of poo poo you're in, someone will be there for you. That someone may be a totally bland, one-note MC of a bad-but-entertaining series of light novels, but hey, it's someone

The biggest problem I have with Touma taking the role of the savior is that there's no reason other than narrative necessity that he should be able to play that role. All things considered, he shouldn't be able to resolve this arc, but he has to, and so the arc is written to fit. I don't think that, in general, there's necessarily anything wrong with someone other than the MC solving the main problem of a story. But the character who does solve it should at least have some value that makes it worth them doing so, and Touma doesn't really have that.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


The biggest problem I have with it is that Touma's plan just doesn't make much sense in the first place. Are we really supposed to believe that Tree Diagram's plans were premised on the idea that Accelerator is the best esper there ever was and ever will be? That somehow not being "the best" in some abstract way would invalidate all the time and money spent pushing him towards Level 6? That's a pretty silly plan if that's the case. I mean, it makes sense to choose the best esper you know to begin the project, but once that's done is there any reason to stop just because some nobody apparently has a secret power that makes him even better? It's not like Accelerator is suddenly weak, or hasn't already gone through half of the training. I just can't wrap my head around this.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010


Relambrien posted:

I've never particularly liked or hated Touma; I just treat him as a device on which to dump the plot and I'm pretty okay with that. That said, seeing things from Mikoto's perspective makes him come across as a lot more of a godsend than he does from his own perspective (expectedly).

Mikoto is fighting against an entire city, with seemingly endless ability to completely ignore her attempts to stop their plans. She's completely at the end of her rope, she doesn't have a single ally in the world that can help her, and then all of a sudden this totally random guy steps in and is like "Yo I'm on your side, I'll handle this." Leaving the gender aspects of the whole thing aside, that's a pretty powerful moment. You have nothing, you're completely in despair, you have exhausted every single option available to you and you've resigned yourself to dying in a desperate bid to do something, and then someone tells you you were never alone in the first place.

If there actually is something to take away from seeing this from Mikoto's perspective, it's that no matter what kind of poo poo you're in, someone will be there for you. That someone may be a totally bland, one-note MC of a bad-but-entertaining series of light novels, but hey, it's someone

This is what I took away from the arc as well. The message is "If you need help, it is okay to ask for help instead of being a typical Japanese and bearing the unbearable". Which is a message I don't think is all that bad.


quote:

The biggest problem I have with Touma taking the role of the savior is that there's no reason other than narrative necessity that he should be able to play that role. All things considered, he shouldn't be able to resolve this arc, but he has to, and so the arc is written to fit. I don't think that, in general, there's necessarily anything wrong with someone other than the MC solving the main problem of a story. But the character who does solve it should at least have some value that makes it worth them doing so, and Touma doesn't really have that.

Frankly I think the fight between Touma and Accelerator is more about Accelerator than it is about Mikoto. Accelerator has been literally untouchable for god knows how long, and then a random level 0 street punk come along and punches him in the loving face. It is a defining moment for him, particularly because it is just a random rear end level 0 punk (protagonist status notwithstanding). losing against Mikotot would be a simple "well she is a Level 5 beating another Level 5, no big deal after all".

VictualSquid
Feb 29, 2012

Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.


Clarste posted:

The biggest problem I have with it is that Touma's plan just doesn't make much sense in the first place. Are we really supposed to believe that Tree Diagram's plans were premised on the idea that Accelerator is the best esper there ever was and ever will be? That somehow not being "the best" in some abstract way would invalidate all the time and money spent pushing him towards Level 6? That's a pretty silly plan if that's the case. I mean, it makes sense to choose the best esper you know to begin the project, but once that's done is there any reason to stop just because some nobody apparently has a secret power that makes him even better? It's not like Accelerator is suddenly weak, or hasn't already gone through half of the training. I just can't wrap my head around this.
You are forgetting that Touma has the hidden ability to make everyone influenced by him act like the stupidest of stupidest shounen manga stereotypes.
So yeah, you get (index spoiler) every 2-bit fighter in the city thinking he is stronger then accelerator after he has lost one fight.

This also explains why Misaka never can defeat Touma. She isn't allowed to use deadly moves in the shounen zone.
Also explains why Misaka just sat down and left everything to Touma. Though that could also be explained by her age if you feel overly generous.

Dan7el
Dec 7, 2008



The author wrote this story about Touma. He is the primary character. Mikoto is a secondary, side character. So, now we have a new series where Mikoto is the primary character, yet we insist on telling Touma's story. Of course, she's going to seem relegated to the side-lines in her own story. It's not her story. It's Touma's.

In a way, this is a really stupid thing to do. All the really interesting Mikoto stories are about Mikoto, regarding Mikoto, and primarily involving Mikoto. However, we're being dragged, kicking and screaming, into Touma's story which just so happens to have Mikoto, the side character, massively involved.

In the original, Touma-based story, (Very Minor Anime Spoiler)Touma is the hero. He can't help but be the hero here. Regardless of whose story it is.

If they're going to write a story about Mikoto, Touma should only be mentioned as a side-note. In my opinion, while the Sisters story is significant to the Kamijou universe and Mikoto, it's the wrong story to tell because Mikoto is not the hero, after all.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3



College Slice

tonberrytoby posted:

You are forgetting that Touma has the hidden ability to make everyone influenced by him act like the stupidest of stupidest shounen manga stereotypes.
So yeah, you get (index spoiler) every 2-bit fighter in the city thinking he is stronger then accelerator after he has lost one fight.

This also explains why Misaka never can defeat Touma. She isn't allowed to use deadly moves in the shounen zone.
Also explains why Misaka just sat down and left everything to Touma. Though that could also be explained by her age if you feel overly generous.

I'm sure murdering innocent people that manage to beat you one time in an irrelevant street fight is totally something that's within Misaka's character to do? That's Sarcasm.

Falken
Jan 26, 2004

Do you feel like a hero yet?


Here's a genuinely good Persona eyes style picture of the level 5s.

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veekie
Dec 25, 2007

Dice of Chaos


Regarding the experiment's outcome:
There are two basic things involved here. Firstly, being defeated by someone worthless(from his point of view at least), caused dramatic changes in Accelerator's state of mind. Power progression to a large extent derives from personality traits, and the shock likely has thrown the estimations off. It would cause far more damage than if say, another level 5 or someone from the Magic Side defeated Accelerator, he could still fit that into his worldview of worthy foes and unexplainable forces.

Secondly, Aleister Crowley had a better use for the Sisters than Level 6 Shift. Rather than rely on a single, unpredictable level 6 individual, Radio Noise can be used to manipulate AIM Burst phenomenon through their administrator, and are nearly perfectly docile.


LN spoilers:
Instead what happened was Level 6 Shift primed the pump for both Accelerator and the Sisters. Accelerator could make the shift using a different approach, while the Sisters were sufficiently hardened from the process to make them quite effective esper mercenary forces, further justifying the spread of Radio Noise.

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