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Revol
Jul 31, 2003

EHCIARF EMERC...
EHCIARF EMERC...


Malderi posted:

I am very disappointed by the XPS12 refresh. No 256GB SSD option. 128 isn't enough for me, and the only option above that is the $2K model with 512. If the $1400 had 256GB (or there was a $1500 model with it), that's what I'd be considering. But not $2000, that's total bullshit.

That is something that perhaps the phone sales people would be able to do for you. While I was wrong about the CPU/memory combo, I do know that Dell has 256GB SSD minicards. It's just a question of whether or not the phone sales people would be able to custom order it. I doubt it, since they're probably only selling these three pre-made ones, but it might be worth a try, if it's important to you.

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fookolt
Mar 13, 2012

Where there is power
There is resistance


LurkingAsian posted:

I got mine with:
i7-4700QM
Geforce Gtx 765m
16Gb ram
256Gb SSD + 1Tb HD
Intel® Dual Band AC 7260 Wireless

The screen is not listed as IPS on Xotic PC's site but it should be a similar technology. Apparently IPS is a LG trademark?

drat, isn't the RAM and SSD upgradeable? I'd rather get that later.

Also, what's the construction like? Aluminum? Carbon fiber? Flexy plastic poo poo?

sports
Sep 1, 2012


Malderi posted:

I am very disappointed by the XPS12 refresh. No 256GB SSD option. 128 isn't enough for me, and the only option above that is the $2K model with 512. If the $1400 had 256GB (or there was a $1500 model with it), that's what I'd be considering. But not $2000, that's total bullshit.

I've heard that the 4x6 256 SSDs are very inefficient compared to 2x4 128 SSDs and 4x8 512 SSDs. You might want to just opt for a 256GB Air, because the Air uses a Samsung PCIe SSD that is much faster than the SATA III in other current laptops.

butt dickus
Jul 7, 2007

top ten juiced up coaches
and the top ten juiced up players

sports posted:

I've heard that the 4x6 256 SSDs are very inefficient compared to 2x4 128 SSDs and 4x8 512 SSDs. You might want to just opt for a 256GB Air, because the Air uses a Samsung PCIe SSD that is much faster than the SATA III in other current laptops.
That PCIe SSD is v.nice and I hope we start seeing them in other machines.

sports
Sep 1, 2012


Doctor rear end in a top hat posted:

That PCIe SSD is v.nice and I hope we start seeing them in other machines.

I hope Apple has the royalty on it for consumer applications for a while. Truth be told, the Windows laptop market is really bloated and should be culled down to the best sellers and niche laptops.

The Windows market can compete if there's more focus divested in a smaller amount of laptops. One of the big issues with things like the current ThinkPad line is that there's an overwhelming amount of models that are all capable of the same thing.

sports fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jul 10, 2013

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust


Grimey Drawer

What are you talking about. I can't wait for the Samsung ATIV One 5 Style and the Sony model SGZ811939 Ultrabook

Srebrenica Surprise
Aug 23, 2008

"L-O-V-E's just another word I never learned to pronounce."


To this day I have no idea as to the differences between the powerful business premium durable business lightweight vivid SMB small business Ultrabook™ laptop Ultrabook optimized for small and medium business T430s, T431s, and T430u are and hope it stops forever with the T440s. The Samsung thing is basically the Enterprise self destruct authorization phrase.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless


Young Orc

Srebrenica Surprise posted:

To this day I have no idea as to the differences between the powerful premium durable lightweight vivid SMB Ultrabook™ laptop Ultrabookoptimized for small and medium business T430s, T431s, and T430u are and hope it stops forever with the T440s.

It's actually going to get even worse. Do you prefer the T431s or the S431? The Helix or the Twist or the Think Tablet 2 or whatever other dumb non-alphanumeric names they have.

They had a big shakeup in their execs in 2012 because their Lenovo brand has been a consistent underperformer, so their solution was to split the Thinkpad group from the rest of the Lenovo group and put the head of Lenovo's product group in charge of the Think division. Because clearly he was doing his job so well before. And lo and behold, retarded poo poo starts happening right afterwards with massively multiplying product lines that all overlap and drastic redesigns to try and "compete with Apple" i.e. copy Apple poorly.

Zalakwe
Jun 4, 2007
Likes Cake, Hates Hamsters



I was hoping that someone would be able to recommend my wife a laptop? I plan to sue a my desktop for gaming so all it has to do is browse/office/itunes etc and stream/output video at decent quality. She would like an optical drive and windows 8 if possible, but isn't fussed about a touchscreen. HDMI out would be a good bonus. She does move it around a bit (trains etc.) so something lightish would be nice as well, she certainly doesn't want some 17 inch behemonth.

I'm sure I could have found a good option from the thread but one complication is that we're in the UK so availability (and pricing!) is a bit different. Is 4Gig of ram enough? Would like to get in under £600, less than that is a bonus.

Edit: Forgot to mention can't really wait for shiny new chips, last laptop is dying rapidly.

Zalakwe fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jul 10, 2013

oneof27
May 27, 2007
DSMtalker

Cream_Filling posted:

It's actually going to get even worse. Do you prefer the T431s or the S431? The Helix or the Twist or the Think Tablet 2 or whatever other dumb non-alphanumeric names they have.

They had a big shakeup in their execs in 2012 because their Lenovo brand has been a consistent underperformer, so their solution was to split the Thinkpad group from the rest of the Lenovo group and put the head of Lenovo's product group in charge of the Think division. Because clearly he was doing his job so well before. And lo and behold, retarded poo poo starts happening right afterwards with massively multiplying product lines that all overlap and drastic redesigns to try and "compete with Apple" i.e. copy Apple poorly.

Now I'm worried that if I wait for the Haswell Thinkpad instead of the current T430, I'll end up with some half-assed piece of garbage.

Malderi
Nov 27, 2005
There are three fundamental forces in this universe: matter, energy, and enlighted self-interest.

sports posted:

I've heard that the 4x6 256 SSDs are very inefficient compared to 2x4 128 SSDs and 4x8 512 SSDs. You might want to just opt for a 256GB Air, because the Air uses a Samsung PCIe SSD that is much faster than the SATA III in other current laptops.

Nah, definitely not going with the Air. Main reason I wanted the XPS12 was the touchscreen and convertible tablet functionality. I'm willing to pay a small premium for the fact that I love the hinge design much more than any other convertible. But $500+ is way too much. There's convertibles with specs that meet my requirements for $1k, so I'll go with one of those instead.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless


Young Orc

oneof27 posted:

Now I'm worried that if I wait for the Haswell Thinkpad instead of the current T430, I'll end up with some half-assed piece of garbage.

Nah I doubt it will get any worse except for some questionable design choices that probably don't matter to most people unless you're a brand fanboy as I am. The actual workmanship (versus the design part of build quality) went down a long time ago and I doubt it's going to get worse.

I thought the new clickpad was pretty bad but if you don't use the trackpoint most of the faults are stuff that could be fixed in drivers and are probably not hardware bound, so based on previous experience they will likely improve the performance.

sports
Sep 1, 2012


Cream_Filling posted:

Nah I doubt it will get any worse except for some questionable design choices that probably don't matter to most people unless you're a brand fanboy as I am. The actual workmanship (versus the design part of build quality) went down a long time ago and I doubt it's going to get worse.

I thought the new clickpad was pretty bad but if you don't use the trackpoint most of the faults are stuff that could be fixed in drivers and are probably not hardware bound, so based on previous experience they will likely improve the performance.

Lenovo is still spending quite a bit of money on R&D for the Yamato Lab, which has torture-tested ThinkPads since forever. The "lack of quality" of newer models is actually just intelligent, conspicuous choices made on Lenovo's part. A current ThinkPad might have thinner plastic and chassis and a bit more flex than a T40, but that flex absorbs shock better while also allowing Lenovo a bit less material spent on each ThinkPad.

Now, this all ends with the X1 Carbon, which I still am pretty ashamed is given the ThinkPad name. This thing has a glossy screen and to me feels quite flimsy and without the beef that basically defines what the ThinkPad is. That, along with mediocre battery life and temperature handling makes it really unnecessary for most people and a much more durable MacBook Air could be had for the same amount of money. Carbon fiber versus Aluminum is a battle won by Aluminum in terms of utility, but if anybody needed to ride a laptop in a triathlon, they might just go with one made out of carbon fiber.


Malderi posted:

Nah, definitely not going with the Air. Main reason I wanted the XPS12 was the touchscreen and convertible tablet functionality. I'm willing to pay a small premium for the fact that I love the hinge design much more than any other convertible. But $500+ is way too much. There's convertibles with specs that meet my requirements for $1k, so I'll go with one of those instead.

I hope to hear back from you. I've never seen a convertible used as such, and I want my suspicions proven wrong. In terms of convertible gimmick factor, the XPS 12 will deliver bounds. The Yoga 13 appears (has been described by "reputable" "tech" "news" websites (Here's a link to what I thought was an OK review)) to have a less gimmicky/less sexy?/less fragile hinge system in place, but I honestly haven't paid much attention to convertibles (because iPad).

sports fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jul 10, 2013

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.

The X1 Carbon doesn't have a glossy screen though.

Also pretty sure you're dead wrong about durability of it vs the MBA.

SoggyGravy
Jul 14, 2008

MAXIMUM
OVERGOON


I am confused, other than a place like xoticpc where can I buy the Clevo W230ST laptop? Are they the best place to go to? I am almost totally convinced that bang for buck this will be the way to go instead of spending 2300 on a blade. It seems almost too good to be true. What do you guys recommend customization wise to get the most bang for buck out of this guy given that I don't want it to be a portable brick or super duper loud/hot becuase I chose to get the higher wattage cpu that wasn't necessary. I am not up to speed on all the latest CPU units since it has been about a year since I last built a PC.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless


Young Orc

sports posted:

Lenovo is still spending quite a bit of money on R&D for the Yamato Lab, which has torture-tested ThinkPads since forever. The "lack of quality" of newer models is actually just intelligent, conspicuous choices made on Lenovo's part. A current ThinkPad might have thinner plastic and chassis and a bit more flex than a T40, but that flex absorbs shock better while also allowing Lenovo a bit less material spent on each ThinkPad.

No their design is still good, though I hate most of their recent choices. I'm talking more stuff like multiple people cutting themselves on the Lenovo logo because it's not mounted properly. As in I personally know two people that actually drew blood, and apparently even on this forum it's happened. I also have a random gut feel that the rate of stuff being DOA or broken on a new machine is higher, but I don't work at that organization to see the real patterns so it might just be a coincidence.

I used to work before in an area where they had inexplicably used tons of convertibles and they were almost all x series of some sort with a few places using toughbooks. The IBMs were tanks and I was surprised at the amount of abuse the hinges put up with considering it's like a barely over 1" pivot thing, so the x series tablets are definitely physically dependable, at least. Of course, actually using a convertible is kind of lame and that hasn't changed with Windows 8 but I dunno, I wasn't in charge of buying them.

OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 11, 2013

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006


I was very impressed with the x230t a client wanted to try but man is the convertible thing almost entirely a solution looking for a problem.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless


Young Orc

I don't think manufacturers 'get' that the reason a lot of people love tablets is because they're cheap and simple and no bullshit. You don't have to sit there fiddling with settings and installing updates and poo poo all the time. You just turn it on and it activates instantly and then you fart around on the internet and throw it back on the couch without anything breaking. You don't have to worry - no fans to cover up or break, no hard drives, no mice or power bricks to pack around.

Switched.on
Apr 25, 2008


SoggyGravy posted:

I am confused, other than a place like xoticpc where can I buy the Clevo W230ST laptop? Are they the best place to go to? I am almost totally convinced that bang for buck this will be the way to go instead of spending 2300 on a blade. It seems almost too good to be true. What do you guys recommend customization wise to get the most bang for buck out of this guy given that I don't want it to be a portable brick or super duper loud/hot becuase I chose to get the higher wattage cpu that wasn't necessary. I am not up to speed on all the latest CPU units since it has been about a year since I last built a PC.

In my googling last night, I found a good laptop subreddit with a list of reputable Clevo/Sager resellers.

http://tinyurl.com/q7bxgr9

mewse
May 2, 2006




Cream_Filling posted:

I don't think manufacturers 'get' that the reason a lot of people love tablets is because they're cheap and simple and no bullshit. You don't have to sit there fiddling with settings and installing updates and poo poo all the time. You just turn it on and it activates instantly and then you fart around on the internet and throw it back on the couch without anything breaking. You don't have to worry - no fans to cover up or break, no hard drives, no mice or power bricks to pack around.

The push is coming from Microsoft who literally believe they can leverage their desktop business into some sort of tablet presence, while they cover their ears and yell "LALALALALAL" at customers who think Windows 8 is an awful desktop experience

SoggyGravy
Jul 14, 2008

MAXIMUM
OVERGOON


Switched.on posted:

In my googling last night, I found a good laptop subreddit with a list of reputable Clevo/Sager resellers.

http://tinyurl.com/q7bxgr9

Thanks that helps a lot, still wondering what sort of configuration actually makes sense for this laptop and still waiting for some user feedback of course since that is usually the most valuable but it looks very promising!

Tried messing with XoticPC's configuration stuff and found myself spending 1800 from 1300 base without actually adding much beyond a raid 0 128gb + 128gb ssds

sports
Sep 1, 2012


SoggyGravy posted:

Thanks that helps a lot, still wondering what sort of configuration actually makes sense for this laptop and still waiting for some user feedback of course since that is usually the most valuable but it looks very promising!

Tried messing with XoticPC's configuration stuff and found myself spending 1800 from 1300 base without actually adding much beyond a raid 0 128gb + 128gb ssds

Fair word of warning here- You may be getting a great deal on, uh, bigger numbers, but you might not be getting the greatest deal on an actual laptop. Definitely assess what you really need and look at mobile options (and stationary options, if your needs are really that strenuous) when you look for a laptop.

InstantInfidel
Jan 8, 2010

BEST I EVER SPENT

SoggyGravy posted:

Thanks that helps a lot, still wondering what sort of configuration actually makes sense for this laptop and still waiting for some user feedback of course since that is usually the most valuable but it looks very promising!

Tried messing with XoticPC's configuration stuff and found myself spending 1800 from 1300 base without actually adding much beyond a raid 0 128gb + 128gb ssds

I would be seriously skeptical of that laptop's ability to cool its components and would recommend waiting to see actual reviews/feedback before you bought it. Also, never get factory-installed SSDs (the markup is stupid, get something from Amazon instead) and never, ever raid-0 SSDs. It does nothing for you except double the chances that you permanently lose all of your data.

edit: Anecdotal, but here we go. My Thinkpad W530 had a 3720QM and a K2000M; those drew 45W and 55W respectively. It was a 15.6" machine, and its cooling system was above and loving beyond, and it *still* got really goddamn hot when I did anything intensive on it. Now, imagine a 47W CPU and a GPU with at least (and in all likelihood higher, I couldn't find an exact number but notebookcheck says 50-75W) the same power consumption in a smaller frame and from a company much, much less reputable than even a shitbox like Lenovo.

Basically, you're buying what will probably be either a George Foreman grill or a laptop that'll throttle down hard enough to essentially lobotomize itself.

InstantInfidel fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jul 11, 2013

Sendo
Jul 26, 2011



Cooling has never really been an issue with Clevo machines I don't see it being any different with the W230ST, they have all been thick enough that airflow has been pretty good. They can be extremely loud when it gets working though, however that's to be expected with the hardware they are running.

As above though it's far cheaper to buy RAM/SSD upgrades elsewhere and install them yourself, these things are very easy to upgrade and almost all aspects of them can be upgrades (even the CPU/GPU on larger models). They operate on pretty thin margins with the base system and make their money on upgrades and other services.

InstantInfidel
Jan 8, 2010

BEST I EVER SPENT

Sendo posted:

Cooling has never really been an issue with Clevo machines I don't see it being any different with the W230ST, they have all been thick enough that airflow has been pretty good. They can be extremely loud when it gets working though, however that's to be expected with the hardware they are running.

As above though it's far cheaper to buy RAM/SSD upgrades elsewhere and install them yourself, these things are very easy to upgrade and almost all aspects of them can be upgrades (even the CPU/GPU on larger models). They operate on pretty thin margins with the base system and make their money on upgrades and other services.

That's not true at all. Their last SFF design, the W110ER, was 11.6" and used a much weaker graphics card and multiple reviews criticized it for being nearly 100F under load in contact areas like the touchpad, let alone the actual components. Again, I would seriously doubt that laptop's ability to cool itself.

LurkingAsian
Jul 27, 2007
Shhhh.......

quote:

That's not true at all. Their last SFF design, the W110ER, was 11.6" and used a much weaker graphics card and multiple reviews criticized it for being nearly 100F under load in contact areas like the touchpad, let alone the actual components. Again, I would seriously doubt that laptop's ability to cool itself.
My current Clevo w110er has a 45W CPU(i7-3610QM) + 45W GPU(650m) and has never overheated. It gets very hot, but never to the point of throttling. After a session of Bioshock Infinite it will hit about 85C, which is safely below Tjunction max of 105C for the processor. It is somewhat loud at load, but still quieter than my aging desktop.

LurkingAsian fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Jul 11, 2013

InstantInfidel
Jan 8, 2010

BEST I EVER SPENT

LurkingAsian posted:

My current Clevo w110er has a 45W CPU(i7-3610QM) + 45W GPU(650m) and has never overheated. It gets very hot, but never to the point of throttling. After a session of Bioshock Infinite it will hit about 85C, which is safely below Tjunction max of 105C for the processor. It is somewhat loud at load, but still quieter than my aging desktop.

I never said that the W110ER would overheat or throttle, just that it had thermal issues and would get exceptionally hot. Your laptop internals are almost hot enough to boil water, that's crazy.

Also, if it's quieter than your desktop, holyshit you should really get a new heatsink or at the very least reapply the TIM.

SoggyGravy
Jul 14, 2008

MAXIMUM
OVERGOON


Yeah I'm not looking to get something that will be able to launch me into outerspace, cook me breakfast and then sizzle my appendages off in a flash flame. That being said I was just curious from you guys that IF you were going to buy the Clevo W230ST (with the 14"blade being the [alternative] so to speak) what configuration would you go with? I do not need the extra 2 FPS id rather have something that is quieter/longer lasting than eek out that extra frame.

Clearly I am not constraining myself on budget granted but no need to spend money unnecessarily. The blade is expensive but there is no alternative configuration or model that matches it so the price is what it is on that one.

InstantInfidel
Jan 8, 2010

BEST I EVER SPENT

Asus makes a pretty drat good machine and they incorporate cooling into the entire design. The entire G-series is worth a look, but that one in particular is their smallest (albeit, last-generation) model.

LurkingAsian
Jul 27, 2007
Shhhh.......

InstantInfidel posted:

I never said that the W110ER would overheat or throttle, just that it had thermal issues and would get exceptionally hot. Your laptop internals are almost hot enough to boil water, that's crazy.

Also, if it's quieter than your desktop, holyshit you should really get a new heatsink or at the very least reapply the TIM.

Those temperatures are the norm in many modern laptops. The macbook air regularly exceeds 95C. The casing gets warm, but never uncomfortably so. Higher internal temperatures allow for more efficient heat dissipation and more compact designs, I am not super concerned. As for my desktop, it has loud case fans which are not temperature controlled. I don't really care about it too much since I rarely use it and will turn it into a server.

SoggyGravy
Jul 14, 2008

MAXIMUM
OVERGOON


InstantInfidel posted:

Asus makes a pretty drat good machine and they incorporate cooling into the entire design. The entire G-series is worth a look, but that one in particular is their smallest (albeit, last-generation) model.

very interesting, have they announced when that is going to be refreshed? I could wait if it wasn't too far off (1-2 months max)

sports
Sep 1, 2012


SoggyGravy posted:

Yeah I'm not looking to get something that will be able to launch me into outerspace, cook me breakfast and then sizzle my appendages off in a flash flame. That being said I was just curious from you guys that IF you were going to buy the Clevo W230ST (with the 14"blade being the [alternative] so to speak) what configuration would you go with? I do not need the extra 2 FPS id rather have something that is quieter/longer lasting than eek out that extra frame.

Clearly I am not constraining myself on budget granted but no need to spend money unnecessarily. The blade is expensive but there is no alternative configuration or model that matches it so the price is what it is on that one.

Look at Haswell machines. Seriously, man. Both of those laptops are unnecessary amounts of money. Look at the x240s, and the new t440s.

LurkingAsian
Jul 27, 2007
Shhhh.......

sports posted:

Look at Haswell machines. Seriously, man. Both of those laptops are unnecessary amounts of money. Look at the x240s, and the new t440s.

Neither one is going to have anywhere near the graphical performance.

InstantInfidel
Jan 8, 2010

BEST I EVER SPENT

LurkingAsian posted:

Those temperatures are the norm in many modern laptops. The macbook air regularly exceeds 95C. The casing gets warm, but never uncomfortably so. Higher internal temperatures allow for more efficient heat dissipation and more compact designs, I am not super concerned. As for my desktop, it has loud case fans which are not temperature controlled. I don't really care about it too much since I rarely use it and will turn it into a server.

The norm? The i5 and the i7 that ship with the MBA are rated at 100C max before serious permanent damage sets in. Exceeding 95C puts them precipitously close to a forced shutdown, which is hardly comforting. The Macbook Air is also not designed to handle those kinds of programs, and it sounds like a ramjet when it is. I wouldn't consider someone using a MBA as a gaming platform a regular useage scenario.

Anyway, the point remains, Clevo crammed a lot of hardware into a tiny chassis, it'll be interesting to see if it works or not.

yikes!
Jul 5, 2006




Soiled Meat

LurkingAsian posted:

Those temperatures are the norm in many modern laptops. The macbook air regularly exceeds 95C. The casing gets warm, but never uncomfortably so. Higher internal temperatures allow for more efficient heat dissipation and more compact designs, I am not super concerned. As for my desktop, it has loud case fans which are not temperature controlled. I don't really care about it too much since I rarely use it and will turn it into a server.

I don't think you're correct.

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust


Grimey Drawer

I had a Clevo/Sager 8130 and in terms of build quality it was a hunk of poo poo. Very cheap plastic feel and one of the screws stripped when I was replacing the hard drive. Can't argue with the amazing specs you get for the money, but I was glad to just return it and get something else.

LurkingAsian
Jul 27, 2007
Shhhh.......

Omelette du Fromage posted:

I don't think you're correct.

In what respects? A lot of laptops will hit 80-90C under load.
This HP:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6983/...rabook-review/4
This Toshiba:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6941/...rabook-review/4
Razer blade:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7119/...tebook-review/5
Macbook Air:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7113/...core-i7-4650u/4

fookolt
Mar 13, 2012

Where there is power
There is resistance


Mu Zeta posted:

I had a Clevo/Sager 8130 and in terms of build quality it was a hunk of poo poo. Very cheap plastic feel and one of the screws stripped when I was replacing the hard drive. Can't argue with the amazing specs you get for the money, but I was glad to just return it and get something else.

That's a drat shame. It's killing me to wait; I think I'm just going to get a MacBook Air and resell it if I need to when the new hot poo poo comes out from Samsung/Asus.

sports
Sep 1, 2012



The difference is, with the MacBook Air you look at the exterior temp of 41* vs 90* exterior temp for the Clevo.

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pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

So I need to get a laptop, I've been reading the thread and I'm not really sure what I should do. My desktop is also aging pretty badly, and I'm torn between getting a better laptop and just using it and having no desktop, or getting a cheap laptop and replacing my desktop. I'll be taking it to school with me every day, so decent battery life would be nice though I can easily plug it in, there's lots of access to plugs at school.

I could spend as much as $2,000 or so, though I'd prefer not to. My main use for it will be excel, web browsing, and some light game playing, (LOL, TF2) but my main concern is the ability to play, and multi box Eve online, which is a game usually bound by CPU and Ram as I understand it.

At this point I'm leaning towards waiting for the Haswell MBPr to come out.

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