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esquilax
Jan 3, 2003



Motherfucker posted:

Lets see what the devs have to say about it!



Than they muted me for a further sixty minutes for saying I use the generic guns mod because regular guns have the scent of 'gun guy' on them and radiate small dick energy

Did you really post that chatlog thinking that you would come off well? They're human beings dude

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reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


Personally I don't know enough about irl guns to have much an opinion one way or another but I'd like to draw contrast to the melee survivor's projected path versus the ranged survivor. (All prior to the addition of new book locations)

Melee:

It's day 1! Awesome! Let's cut a cudgel from this curtain rod!

Day 25: Hey! I'm melee level 3 now! Time to whip up the quarterstaff! Just gotta smash a couple carseats here and bada bing bada boom

Day 30: Fabrication level up! Time to be thinking about an iron shod quarterstaff and some metal leg guards and a wooden shield! Now I can get into some trouble!

Day 40: Ah, I've arrived. The Mansion. And if it ain't in here we hit The Next Mansion and The Next until... until.... Broadsword and plate armor Hallelujah! Now I desperately need a welding kit and some fabrication skill so I can keep this murder-suit and cutty-stick.

Day 47: Cutting weapons skill rises to match our bashing skill of 4

Day 50: The DIY compendium thank you loving lord

Day 55: Historic weaponsmith pulled out of a half burning library, my armor is now Plate Armor++ my sword is now Broadsword++

Day 75: The book of 5 rings is found in the back of a mansion in the middle of the woods with no adjoining road, now I cut things for 50-70 damage a swing.

Day ???: Survivor armor and robot parts are really the only step up from here



Okay great now let's do ranged characters

Ranged:
Day 1) Options, raid a gun store or negotiate with starting NPC's to take their guns. Other options include, archery start or throwing rocks.

Day 2) Gun is officially out of ammo if you did any fighting

Day 7) Okay by this point you probably have a bow or slingshot

Day 25) By this point your bow and slingshot are probably better than trying to shoot a gun

Day 35) You have a massive pile of guns and ammo in your safehouse. You have no idea what ammo goes to what guns and you don't care. You have the option of collecting spent shells and refilling them with gunpowder but gunpowder is highly restricted and you really couldn't make more.

Day 45) You keep finding mods for your gun pile. None of them work. You keep killing zombies with arrows and collecting the arrows. This works great.

Day 55) You encounter a corrosive zombie on the third floor of a hospital. These are basically impossible to melee and are described as being cow-sized. Similar to how skeletons are highly resistant to being shot to encourage melee these are highly vulnerable to being shot to encourage being a ranged character. You confidently ready your bow and then it spits acid into your eyes and disembowels you.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011

I certainly dont have deep-seated issues involving birthdays.

esquilax posted:

Did you really post that chatlog thinking that you would come off well? They're human beings dude

Yeah, poo poo ones.

Rockopolis
Dec 21, 2012

I MAKE FUN OF QUEER STORYGAMES BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH MY LIFE THAN MAKE OTHER PEOPLE CRY

I can't understand these kinds of games, and not getting it bugs me almost as much as me being weird


geeko55 posted:

I think that's an issue with the latest stable. If you find one of the newest Experimental build .apk files and use that, it should fix that issue. At least, it did for me!

It's honestly incredible that they've got CDDA running well on a phone in the first place.
Yeah, the little bits I've played have been pretty smooth.

I've been using the experimental from the Play Store, uh, 10264/0.D-11668-g6a39a45. Looks like it's a little behind.

Mzbundifund
Nov 5, 2011

I'm afraid so.


Motherfucker posted:

Yeah, poo poo ones.

Wow, uh, while I totally agree with you about the broken gun mods and the insane nutrition model and the general arc the game's development has taken over the past 5 years, I'd infinitely rather live in a society with people who don't know what makes a fun video game than people who don't know how to treat other people, dude. This is like the textbook example of "if you meet assholes all day, you're the rear end in a top hat".

reignofevil posted:

Day 25: Hey! I'm melee level 3 now! Time to whip up the quarterstaff! Just gotta smash a couple carseats here and bada bing bada boom

this is exactly how my internal monologue goes, too

Corrosive zombies (and acid zombies in general) are a huge nuisance. My lategame melee guys generally had an acid-resistance suit for use clearing hospitals. You can usually upscale a hazmat suit into an ANBC suit by that point.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011

I certainly dont have deep-seated issues involving birthdays.

Mzbundifund posted:

Wow, uh, while I totally agree with you about the broken gun mods and the insane nutrition model and the general arc the game's development has taken over the past 5 years, I'd infinitely rather live in a society with people who don't know what makes a fun video game than people who don't know how to treat other people, dude. This is like the textbook example of "if you meet assholes all day, you're the rear end in a top hat".

Strumpie posted:

Gentle reminder that the long term contributors still active on Cataclysm:DDA don't deserve anyone's respect.

They have long proven themselves to be incompetent babies who failed to honour their kickstarter. (Remember the Kickstarter?)
I give them credit that their failure to achieve most kickstarter milestones was due to said incompetence, rather than malice or greed.

The end result is that Cataclysm is essentially the same as it was almost 10 years ago and that is a travesty, not a triumph.


Spare me the apologia, copsucking and hand-wringing, Someone needs to backhand these loving dipshits. Like, this thread is filled with cute discussions about the completely imbecilic symptoms of a greater Dipshit Disease, like 'ooo guns are bad' or whatever but like, all jokes aside. These people are loving bastards.. the problems with the game are direct ego driven vandalism of the work of people who are less terminally malignant than the proud few old hat assholes working tirelessly to revert anything good. There's only so many times they can hide behind a veil of spineless worms before it starts to look less like a joke. There's a good game in Cataclysm... that was NOT free, by the loving way. These people aren't the cause of that they're the problem with that.


Daily reminder coolguye isn't. I'll be a meanie to any weenie I want, nerd.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!


if they're the dipshits then you just gave them a perfect example of why their detractors are even bigger dipshits that they can post anywhere they want so good going you dumb belligerent gently caress

don't @ me, i'm just backhanding the dipshit in the thread~

Dire Lemming
Jan 19, 2016


Actually apart from the mods thing guns seem OP as hell right now, literally every soldier/military zombie carries a .223 rifle or machine gun with around 15 rounds in it. You can get a lot of the same ammo scavenging from military vehicle turrets too and if you take out a turret in a lab (use grenades if you don't have amazing armour) you'll get its entire 1600 rounds of ammo which basically means you can go wild and shoot everything now.

I'm not actually as down on Cataclysm as my earlier post might have implied, the mod thing is dumb and likely caused by people with no grasp on reality wanting realism but this new playthrough has been more fun than the last time I played back in 0.C experimentals.

NPCs are great now. CBMs are annoying but it made me actually recruit an NPC in the first place so there's that.

Vitamins weren't the horrible chore I expected them to be, I've never seen any vitamin deficiencies on a 100 day character and I haven't been trying to hit 100% RDIs every day or anything. I agree they shouldn't be in the game but they weren't horrible, just irrelevant. The new nutrition system itself isn't bad either, the only problem is that they give you a worse than useless fullness meter rather than actual information on your nutrition probably because realism again.

Vehicles are much better than they were when I last played. My 20 ton military-composite-armoured rolling hoboshack can run into things at 60km/h+ without breaking anything internal which is a massive improvement to my playstyle.

Magiclysm is amazing top to bottom (except the magic gun mods :v:)

Also they finally added a late game targeted purifier so maybe I'll actually use mutagens now. They're still worse than CBMs in pretty much every way but they're at least less bad now.

Basically game is mostly good, just some really dumb decisions that I had to metagame around.

goatsestretchgoals
Jun 4, 2011



hahaha what the gently caress is going on in this thread

e: To actually contribute, i always aim for having a sword of some kind in a scabbard, a rifle in a survivor harness, and a pistol in a fast draw holster. On a related note, the "open sewer" map tile is basically suicide because the 10+ technician zombies will force grab all 3 of those weapons in like 5 turns. I lost a very good survivor the other day to this and now I think I'm going to treat more than one technician zombie as a no-go zone.

goatsestretchgoals fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jan 29, 2020

Mzbundifund
Nov 5, 2011

I'm afraid so.


Dire Lemming posted:

Also they finally added a late game targeted purifier so maybe I'll actually use mutagens now. They're still worse than CBMs in pretty much every way but they're at least less bad now.

Are there any mutations that are worth taking at character creation, specifically for a lab start? The danger with character-creation mutations is that you can't seem to purify them away ever, so if you're taking a mutation with positives and negatives you're in it for the long haul. I've had good luck taking tentacle legs because it turns out if you lab start as a ruined cyborg tentacle legs make you 100% stealthy, completely negating the squeaky ankles bionic. It made my lab escapes super reliable, but it definitely has downsides later when you can't wear certain gear, and I'm wondering if there's some better options for a day 1 mutant.

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013


Strumpie posted:

They have long proven themselves to be incompetent babies who failed to honour their kickstarter. (Remember the Kickstarter?)
I give them credit that their failure to achieve most kickstarter milestones was due to said incompetence, rather than malice or greed.

As the guy who ran the kickstarter, it was definitely a mix of utter incompetence and some serious personal issues. It definitely wasn't malice or greed, greed would have got more poo poo done since all the money was immediately locked behind a wall that required poo poo get done in order to access and if anyone was driven by malice the whole thing would have been way more entertaining on my end.

I haven't been involved in the game for years now, and in my defense I totally delivered on my part of fulfillment and made that terrible video series that name dropped all the backers (and dropped around $500 of my own money on the campaign, I was very sincerely dedicated in my incompetence).

If you want to poo poo on anyone for the kickstarter, you can feel free to poo poo on me, I regret doing it and would probably agree with you. It absolutely wasn't malice or greed that hosed the whole thing up though (aside maybe from the malice driving the lovely loving harassment campaign by one of the game's critiques who hounded one of the developers across the internet to poo poo on them at every available opportunity to such an extent the dev quit the project, all because the dude wrote a PR months prior that got rejected with a "if you change a few thing we'd happily merge it but this is a bit too hacky and would cause issues")

I learned valuable lessons about never trusting developers to deliver, and especially never trusting myself. :v:

GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jan 29, 2020

Inglonias
Mar 7, 2013

I WILL PUT THIS FLAG ON FREAKING EVERYTHING BECAUSE IT IS SYMBOLIC AS HELL SOMEHOW



goatsestretchgoals posted:

hahaha what the gently caress is going on in this thread

e: To actually contribute, i always aim for having a sword of some kind in a scabbard, a rifle in a survivor harness, and a pistol in a fast draw holster. On a related note, the "open sewer" map tile is basically suicide because the 10+ technician zombies will force grab all 3 of those weapons in like 5 turns. I lost a very good survivor the other day to this and now I think I'm going to treat more than one technician zombie as a no-go zone.

Zombie technicians are physically quite weak, and wouldn't be so tough if you could just keep a weapon. So go craft something close to your favorite melee weapon out of wood. Cudgel, two-by-sword, wooden spear, whatever. Then go smack them until they stop moving and give back whatever they stole from you.

Otherwise, lure them into the road and hit them with a car until they die.

Regarding the gun mods thing, I'll see what I can do about that. That said, I have never touched a gun in my life. I'd ask one of the devs with gun experience on the Discord to help, but... that well seems pretty poisonous at the moment.

Inglonias fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jan 29, 2020

silentsnack
Mar 19, 2009

Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current President of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.



Mzbundifund posted:

Are there any mutations that are worth taking at character creation, specifically for a lab start? The danger with character-creation mutations is that you can't seem to purify them away ever, so if you're taking a mutation with positives and negatives you're in it for the long haul. I've had good luck taking tentacle legs because it turns out if you lab start as a ruined cyborg tentacle legs make you 100% stealthy, completely negating the squeaky ankles bionic. It made my lab escapes super reliable, but it definitely has downsides later when you can't wear certain gear, and I'm wondering if there's some better options for a day 1 mutant.

Unless the whole mutation system got reworked, you can start with one or two of the lowHP flaws (flimsy/frail/fragile/glassjaw) and evolve into one of the mutant branches and get a highHP trait you'll lose your starting debuff(s), and purifier won't re-add them.

Because CDDA isn't stupidly minmaxtastic enough already.

SpacePope
Nov 9, 2009



Motherfucker posted:

Spare me the apologia, copsucking and hand-wringing, Someone needs to backhand these loving dipshits. Like, this thread is filled with cute discussions about the completely imbecilic symptoms of a greater Dipshit Disease, like 'ooo guns are bad' or whatever but like, all jokes aside. These people are loving bastards.. the problems with the game are direct ego driven vandalism of the work of people who are less terminally malignant than the proud few old hat assholes working tirelessly to revert anything good. There's only so many times they can hide behind a veil of spineless worms before it starts to look less like a joke. There's a good game in Cataclysm... that was NOT free, by the loving way. These people aren't the cause of that they're the problem with that.


Daily reminder coolguye isn't. I'll be a meanie to any weenie I want, nerd.

Have you tried talking to people like they're human beings? Your internet tough guy persona is clearly not the way to go about it if you want something to change.

I've got close to zero prior experience in coding and still managed to add some functionality to mutations by simply not being a dick to people. Sure, some of the main devs are way too happy to put in ridiculously overkill systems in the name of *realism* like the stomach content patch, but it's not by barging into the Discord to yell at people that you'll get what you want.

SpacePope fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jan 29, 2020

BlondRobin
May 29, 2005

Sssh! Be vewy vewy quiet. It's wabbit season.

on a hopefully less abrasive note, melee did get a bit of a nerf lately; the stamina system makes it hard to cut through large numbers, and it seems like the same changes that increased the numbers of items and reduced zombie evolutions early also increased the number of enemies.

I also think it made melee attacks more costly, but I only played one character from start to car and they were relatively low strength (which apparently reduces the stamina cost by dividing your weapon’s weight.) incidentally just one more reason strength is the best stat.

R.L. Stine
Oct 19, 2007

Stay Out of the Basement



my favourite part about these forums is when someone decides it's time to reveal they are psychotic

President Ark
May 16, 2010

:iiam:


i feel like motherfucker roams from thread to thread posting with increasing hostility until people find out he's a loving loony

e: like, this is his shtick everywhere, he's always an rear end in a top hat

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


President Ark posted:

i feel like motherfucker roams from thread to thread posting with increasing hostility until people find out he's a loving loony

e: like, this is his shtick everywhere, he's always an rear end in a top hat

Yeah, after reading it all I went "Ohhhh its this Motherfucker".

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


Honestly I have to agree that guns feel pretty powerful right now. Gun mods not affecting aim speed the way they should is a problem, sure, but that alone doesn't make guns useless. It might make a lot of gun mods (mainly close-range targeters, like reflex scopes) useless, but ranged combat feels better than it did when I started playing a couple years ago, by a longshot.

There definitely needs to be a PR issue opened for gun weight counting for too much/gun mods not counting for enough, though.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011

I certainly dont have deep-seated issues involving birthdays.

SpacePope posted:

Have you tried talking to people like they're human beings? Your internet tough guy persona is clearly not the way to go about it if you want something to change.

I've got close to zero prior experience in coding and still managed to add some functionality to mutations by simply not being a dick to people. Sure, some of the main devs are way too happy to put in ridiculously overkill systems in the name of *realism* like the stomach content patch, but it's not by barging into the Discord to yell at people that you'll get what you want.

Criticize them anywhere they have power and they spazz the gently caress out, talking normally doesn't work, 'they're human beings' isn't a good catch cry... like I said, not good ones.

R.L. Stine posted:

my favourite part about these forums is when someone decides it's time to reveal they are psychotic

video game psycho, makin' a real mean statement on the internet about someone bein' a dingus. Scaring everyone with his fuckin' mean words.

goatsestretchgoals
Jun 4, 2011



I’m getting a distinct “would murder NPCs with a machete” vibe.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011

I certainly dont have deep-seated issues involving birthdays.

goatsestretchgoals posted:

I’m getting a distinct “would murder NPCs with a machete” vibe.

dosn't everyone? Its free gear!

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017



Motherfucker posted:

Criticize them anywhere they have power and they spazz the gently caress out, talking normally doesn't work, 'they're human beings' isn't a good catch cry... like I said, not good ones.


video game psycho, makin' a real mean statement on the internet about someone bein' a dingus. Scaring everyone with his fuckin' mean words.

u mad?

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



Motherfucker posted:

Criticize them anywhere they have power and they spazz the gently caress out, talking normally doesn't work, 'they're human beings' isn't a good catch cry... like I said, not good ones.


video game psycho, makin' a real mean statement on the internet about someone bein' a dingus. Scaring everyone with his fuckin' mean words.

This is a fun Kauffman-esque bit but you're gonna have to be more subtle otherwise everyones just gonna put you on ignore and you won't be able to post any more epic prank vids

Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation. I actually named my daughter after the Pink ranger and will provide proof if challenged.


I think he's frickin badass!!! :eyepop:

tracecomplete
Feb 26, 2017



Motherfucker posted:

Spare me the apologia, copsucking and hand-wringing, Someone needs to backhand these loving dipshits.

You're a fantastic example of the problem with open source development. Burn your loving computer before you inflict your brainworms on other people again.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011

I certainly dont have deep-seated issues involving birthdays.

Perhaps I have yucked some yums, it is a good day for cataclysm, It is why I revisited it. I love seeing it when someone makes it through the gauntlet and scores a touchdown on good things.

R.L. Stine
Oct 19, 2007

Stay Out of the Basement


[in extremely DemoniusX voice]:

Motherfucker posted:

video game psycho, makin' a real mean statement on the internet about someone bein' a dingus. Scaring everyone with his fuckin' mean words.

Strumpie
Dec 8, 2012


GlyphGryph posted:

As the guy who ran the kickstarter...

I know who you are. Some of us have been here far too long.

For what it's worth, despite your role in the Kickstarter that made C:DDA go from 'Free, open source development!' to 'We paid $9,492 for this?' I do not consider you at fault.
You have proven yourself as one of the few sane and honest humans involved and I'm glad you got out. (After you made sure to do absolutely everything you could and honour everything within your power)



I wish Whales had never unleashed this hell upon us. I warned people all those years ago and no one listened. :colbert:

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


They've made it so you can't craft the crucible anymore. I don't know why that one thing in particular caught the ire of the dev team but it seems kinda dumb that I have ten fabrication skill and have accumulated and read every single book on fabrication that I'm aware exists and yet I can't actually fabricate any of them now because my character can't figure out how to take his solar powered infinite welder and his sea of available metal sheets and work out how he could end up with some kinda hot-metal pouring device.

If anyone knows where the gently caress to find a crucible just out in the wild please get back to me. I'm guessing garages?

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


I would like to talk about something that happened to me today and why it happened. It all began with bloated zombies. They make it hurt to breath! That's fine and good and was a great game mechanic except then the stamina meter was introduced. Now when you go to catch your breath after being bloated you get a little notification every few seconds that something hurts so you should stop. Of course the only way to get past this is to keep waiting so why waste my time walking around pointlessly, let's just ignore the pain.

Except a skeletal dog walks up and gets about fifteen million free hits on me before I can mash STOP WAITING, now I've gone from perfectly healthy to wrecked because the game design didn't account for the fact that someone should ever actually NEED to stay still for a while to proceed. Now that I can't use my weapon (my arms are destroyed) I try to light a fire under the zombie dog in question. No go. Now enemies knock items from your hands when you are being attacked. Now I can't light a fire, can't escape, never got a chance to fight, try to get in my car except changes to vehicles mean that zombies can no longer be thrown from your car even if you go nuts like I did in a trapped situation and try and throw your vehicle into buildings and poo poo to try and toss them out the open passenger door they are standing in.

Dying because the game can't differentiate between my own coughing fits and being attacked for real is no loving fun! Having no chance to fight back because I had the audacity to hit the I button because of poorly interacting systems that were never designed to work as part of a larger stamina system is no fun! I am very upset right now!

Edit- A player needs to feel like they have been complicit in their own death for a death to feel good and earned. Having literally tons of options around me to deal with the problem including just throwing the zombie from my vehicle and yet having them all been systematically ruled out means that when a situation arises that isn't because the player made any real mistake it's very frustrating and makes me not want to play.As an aside having the developers make it so fabricating is now not something you can actually work your way up the system from nothing (except a book and the means to access power/welding fuel) is no fun and makes me not want to play. And honestly now that I can't reliably become a robot person due to medical changes, can't reliably be a cool melee guy because of combat changes, can't reliably build a super car because the devs decided that having a cool military grade solar death tank was a bad thing for some reason I really am starting to ask myself if this game is even still worth putting the time and effort into.

reignofevil fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jan 31, 2020

Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation. I actually named my daughter after the Pink ranger and will provide proof if challenged.


I would be too, that sounds like absolute bullshit to deal with.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


Also this is completely off the topic but crafting makeshift arc welders is broken as per the experimental I downloaded a couple days ago. I had to actually open the debug menu and just spawn a couple when I went back and saw that the process of crafting them had been 100% successful they just failed to spawn. Should you find an arc welder with a battery in it you need to fully remove the battery before you can craft the next step in a vehicle welding rig, just so nobody makes the same mistakes I did!

CellarDweller
Jan 19, 2014

Down In The Pit... There's It!


reignofevil posted:

They've made it so you can't craft the crucible anymore. I don't know why that one thing in particular caught the ire of the dev team but it seems kinda dumb that I have ten fabrication skill and have accumulated and read every single book on fabrication that I'm aware exists and yet I can't actually fabricate any of them now because my character can't figure out how to take his solar powered infinite welder and his sea of available metal sheets and work out how he could end up with some kinda hot-metal pouring device.

If anyone knows where the gently caress to find a crucible just out in the wild please get back to me. I'm guessing garages?

Jewelry stores tend to have them in the backroom if I remember correctly.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


reignofevil posted:

They've made it so you can't craft the crucible anymore. I don't know why that one thing in particular caught the ire of the dev team but it seems kinda dumb that I have ten fabrication skill and have accumulated and read every single book on fabrication that I'm aware exists and yet I can't actually fabricate any of them now because my character can't figure out how to take his solar powered infinite welder and his sea of available metal sheets and work out how he could end up with some kinda hot-metal pouring device.

If anyone knows where the gently caress to find a crucible just out in the wild please get back to me. I'm guessing garages?

Are you sure that this is intended and not just something which accidentally got broken at some point?

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


The recipe is marked as obsolete on the experimentals side of the item browser

CellarDweller
Jan 19, 2014

Down In The Pit... There's It!


reignofevil posted:

The recipe is marked as obsolete on the experimentals side of the item browser

Looks like you can still make clay crucibles

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


Apparently it got removed because someone decided that having unrealistically useful crucibles made from metal was a huge affront to reality, and coding in a system to represent crucibles getting fatigued when used was too difficult.

To some people the latter would mean let's just leave it until things can be fixed properly but that's not the CDDA way. Go find some clay!

Nevets
Sep 11, 2002

Be they sad or be they well,
I'll make their lives a hell


RabidWeasel posted:

...coding in a system to represent crucibles getting fatigued when used was too difficult...

Considering every item in the game has hitpoints already it seems like it wouldn't be too hard to just have 'makeshift' tagged items take damage when used. Eventually that rock you tied to a stick with grass blades falls apart after you use it the 50th time.

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Xand_Man
Mar 2, 2004

If what you say is true
Wutang might be dangerous




Halp how do I master the technology of "cup that can get real hot"

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