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Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


I'd almost admire it if they just stuck to their mission statement of extreme realism simulation but it's so abundantly clear, in the way things are actually balanced, that it's more one of those misery grinds than anything. Like I said, they'll use "realism" as an excuse to not add anything cool or fun, but then when the realistic option is actually something that's very easy and accessible, they go "ah, realism is second to game design". The only exception I can think of is when they made gun maintenance way easier because someone pointed out a gun doesn't gently caress itself up to the point of needing replacement parts after firing 60 rounds.

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Arven
Sep 23, 2007


Manager Hoyden posted:

This is a free game developed by amateurs so I'm not going to criticize TOO much, but I have to wonder about the type of person who thinks end-game content isn't important but pocket simulation, vitamin deficiencies, and (horribly) simulated weight gain are all necessary and cool.

To them if you make it to the endgame it means that they aren't doing their job correctly

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!


Arven posted:

To them if you make it to the endgame it means that they aren't doing their job correctly

Making it to the endgame is fine but you're not allowed to have fun en route.

MonkeyforaHead
Apr 7, 2006

God, you vindictive bitch, why can't I ever have any "me" time

I am forever surprised and grateful for the plethora of debug functions and the incredible ease of savescumming, because Cataclysm is one of those games that, much like Don't Starve, I cannot IMAGINE playing for something like 30-60 hours only to have to start completely over because of some crazy bullshit (or just trying to learn how unfamiliar things work that aren't part of the first few hours of establishing a new character). There's a very fine balance of expected time investment per run versus the punishment of dying in older traditional roguelikes, the post-Rogue Legacy modern system of persistent upgrades was conceived at least in part as a means of mitigating that frustration in longer-haul games, but then you get to things like Cataclysm (played "as intended") and Don't Starve which have the punishment of the 1980's games but the length of the 2010's games. Design for the sort of crowd who play Minecraft exclusively in Hardcore mode.

zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

yospos


Arven posted:

To them if you make it to the endgame it means that they aren't doing their job correctly
Ahh yes, the IVAN approach.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


MonkeyforaHead posted:

I am forever surprised and grateful for the plethora of debug functions and the incredible ease of savescumming, because Cataclysm is one of those games that, much like Don't Starve, I cannot IMAGINE playing for something like 30-60 hours only to have to start completely over because of some crazy bullshit (or just trying to learn how unfamiliar things work that aren't part of the first few hours of establishing a new character). There's a very fine balance of expected time investment per run versus the punishment of dying in older traditional roguelikes, the post-Rogue Legacy modern system of persistent upgrades was conceived at least in part as a means of mitigating that frustration in longer-haul games, but then you get to things like Cataclysm (played "as intended") and Don't Starve which have the punishment of the 1980's games but the length of the 2010's games. Design for the sort of crowd who play Minecraft exclusively in Hardcore mode.
When I finally made peace with the fact I was just going to savescum forever in Cataclysm I ended up having a lot more fun with it. I just play it like a normal game with saving and loading, because like you said, permadeath may be fun for games where a run is around an hour, tops, but when you can be playing a Cataclysm character for several weekends in a row, losing it all to one bad move or a turret seeing you as you step out from behind a corner is not the enjoyable kind of difficulty I'm looking for. There's just entirely too much investment.

Vib Rib fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Apr 27, 2021

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



I think there's also the issue that most roguelikes have different characters and builds to mess with, so dying is an opportunity to try something new. In Cataclysm, there's I guess technically different builds, but they all play exactly the same. Yeah you could go max STR and use a hammer or max DEX/PER and use guns but outside of how you kill zombies, your moment-to-moment gameplay is all going to be exactly the same. You're always gonna be looking for the same set of tools and checking the map for the same sorts of buildings, leveling the same skills to make the same armor and weapons

Leal
Oct 2, 2009

Makin my way downthread
Postin fast
Shitposts pass
and I'm probed now


Mutation serums is what made me finally start save scumming hardcore.

Caidin
Oct 28, 2011


The thing about mutations is if you actually wanna play a mutant you're better off just giving yourself a gallon of mutagen or the serums for the threshold you wanna cross right at the start so you still have some goals to work toward while managing your tentacle limbs or whatever. Otherwise it's just "Neat, I've already won as much of the game as their actually willing to design."

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


MonkeyforaHead posted:

I am forever surprised and grateful for the plethora of debug functions and the incredible ease of savescumming, because Cataclysm is one of those games that, much like Don't Starve, I cannot IMAGINE playing for something like 30-60 hours only to have to start completely over because of some crazy bullshit (or just trying to learn how unfamiliar things work that aren't part of the first few hours of establishing a new character). There's a very fine balance of expected time investment per run versus the punishment of dying in older traditional roguelikes, the post-Rogue Legacy modern system of persistent upgrades was conceived at least in part as a means of mitigating that frustration in longer-haul games, but then you get to things like Cataclysm (played "as intended") and Don't Starve which have the punishment of the 1980's games but the length of the 2010's games. Design for the sort of crowd who play Minecraft exclusively in Hardcore mode.

This is the only way that I play. When it's fun it's REALLY fun, but I've also fallen entirely out of playing and one gigantic factor in the decision was when they changed bionics to no longer be something you could just take a whole bunch of meth and install into yourself whenever it was convenient and the straw that broke the camels back was when I found a toolbox but it had been changed to no longer automatically come with a hacksaw and I ended up having to craft one myself from scratch after exploring tons and tons of houses in a few different towns.

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


To a certain extent I get the backpack complaint because efficency but can't you just like, wear the backpack and then hit "," or whatever the key is to select all and pick it up? It's like maybe a half a second longer.

Also there is a mod to bring back old bionic systems and such. It might even be one of the default ones.

Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Apr 28, 2021

megane
Jun 20, 2008





Yes, the pocket system fixes a rare, minor annoyance by replacing it with incessant, awkward tedium.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


RazzleDazzleHour posted:

I think there's also the issue that most roguelikes have different characters and builds to mess with, so dying is an opportunity to try something new. In Cataclysm, there's I guess technically different builds, but they all play exactly the same. Yeah you could go max STR and use a hammer or max DEX/PER and use guns but outside of how you kill zombies, your moment-to-moment gameplay is all going to be exactly the same. You're always gonna be looking for the same set of tools and checking the map for the same sorts of buildings, leveling the same skills to make the same armor and weapons
The major roadblocks of tools make every early game really repetitive. Hammer, screwdriver, hacksaw, wrench, mask+welder, crucible, anvil, forge, kiln, etc. Always the same tools, always random enough that I feel inevitably I have to grind to find something.

Caidin posted:

The thing about mutations is if you actually wanna play a mutant you're better off just giving yourself a gallon of mutagen or the serums for the threshold you wanna cross right at the start so you still have some goals to work toward while managing your tentacle limbs or whatever. Otherwise it's just "Neat, I've already won as much of the game as their actually willing to design."
I strongly agree, both bionics and mutagens in a normal playthrough come past the point you'd need them, and even stuff like special sleep or dietary requirements end up being meaningless because you've got a huge base or mobile cruiser that's stocked to the gills anyway.
God forbid we get mutations early, when they might make a difference to the way the game plays.

Pacra
Aug 5, 2004

dom dom dom


Vib Rib posted:

The major roadblocks of tools make every early game really repetitive. Hammer, screwdriver, hacksaw, wrench, mask+welder, crucible, anvil, forge, kiln, etc. Always the same tools, always random enough that I feel inevitably I have to grind to find something.

I strongly agree, both bionics and mutagens in a normal playthrough come past the point you'd need them, and even stuff like special sleep or dietary requirements end up being meaningless because you've got a huge base or mobile cruiser that's stocked to the gills anyway.
God forbid we get mutations early, when they might make a difference to the way the game plays.

I know its been said for the Nth time but a goon fork of this game similar to the goon crawl fork, would be one of the all-time great games.

Manager Hoyden
Mar 5, 2020



Vib Rib posted:

I strongly agree, both bionics and mutagens in a normal playthrough come past the point you'd need them, and even stuff like special sleep or dietary requirements end up being meaningless because you've got a huge base or mobile cruiser that's stocked to the gills anyway.
God forbid we get mutations early, when they might make a difference to the way the game plays.

Ha, I never thought of it that way but yeah that is terrible design. Gameplay variety is gated behind completing all existing gameplay.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


Sometimes you gotta break the rules.


In prior versions I was butchering every available shocker ASAP because even though you mostly got extra-internal-batteries or the occasional flashlight system it meant I was installing bionics early and often. Combine that with the occasional good find in a shocker brute and it made the game feel really rewarding for dealing with two typically tedious enemy types and it meant I was always taking extra effort when I found a new zombie to cut it open and figure out if it had anything good inside.


So, you know. That's been majorly nerfed in many different ways.

Rynoto
Apr 27, 2009
It doesn't help that I'm fat as fuck, so my face shouldn't be shown off in the first place.

Pacra posted:

I know its been said for the Nth time but a goon fork of this game similar to the goon crawl fork, would be one of the all-time great games.

There was a goon fork for a while.

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



Honestly Bright Night might as well be the goon fork because it addresses all of the biggest complaints that people in this thread have, save for maybe more of an endgame

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


Manager Hoyden posted:

Gameplay variety is gated behind completing all existing gameplay.
This really is the sum of it in my mind. Even Bright Nights doesn't really address how most of the cool stuff is post-lab, when labs are endgame content and there's nothing else to do.

One very simple change I modded in myself was making the tainted tornado count as "strong" mutagen (guaranteed to cause mutation) rather than a 1/3rd chance. It's potent and knocks you out for most of the day + makes you feel like poo poo but it's cheap to make, so you might as well get something out of it. Seems balanced enough, especially with the odds you'll just get negative mutations which are way more likely than positive ones, that it doesn't additionally need a chance to just do nothing. Similarly, most mutagens aren't terribly expensive to craft so maybe just do a custom mod where you autolearn the recipe and drop the skill requirement a bit and boom, homebrew mutie.

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


Labs really aren't end game content. You can clear most of them with repeated visits and an okay gun.

Getting an okay gun is fairly easy because soldier zeds drop them and the ammo for it and they are fairly common. Grab a mil ID or three and bust into a bunker and there you go.

Or a gently caress ton of molotovs.

Like they don't reset so just clear like a 5th of it and then resupply/heal and come back. Or just clear till you get the recipes or mutagen vials you need.


Edit: Cryolabs are more end gameish but thats mostly needing warm clothes so you don't freeze.

Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Apr 28, 2021

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


There's not really a lot of places difficult enough to be considered endgame. Camps maybe?

reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012


Some of this sounds like stuff that could be maintained as a mod so long as the devs aren't actively trying to break compatibility because they disagree with it, which presumably the bright nights team wouldn't be.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!


Vib Rib posted:

There's not really a lot of places difficult enough to be considered endgame. Camps maybe?

There’s a number of places that could be fleshed out to be such. Fungal forests, sci lab portals, and FEMA shelters come immediately to mind. FEMA shelters in particular could provide an angle to a retirement option on your game, where if you clean it out, restore power and water, and bring in at least a dozen NPCs you can simply retire the character as a winner, complete with a montage of where are they now clips based upon your achievements.

This is all random example crap of course but when you consider that so much effort has been put in to the perfect muzzle velocity of a pistol and the impact force of an individual bullet it starts to look rather odd that no effort whatsoever has been put forward on expanding ideas like that.

Manager Hoyden
Mar 5, 2020



Coolguye posted:

There’s a number of places that could be fleshed out to be such. Fungal forests, sci lab portals, and FEMA shelters come immediately to mind. FEMA shelters in particular could provide an angle to a retirement option on your game, where if you clean it out, restore power and water, and bring in at least a dozen NPCs you can simply retire the character as a winner, complete with a montage of where are they now clips based upon your achievements.

This is all random example crap of course but when you consider that so much effort has been put in to the perfect muzzle velocity of a pistol and the impact force of an individual bullet it starts to look rather odd that no effort whatsoever has been put forward on expanding ideas like that.

It's easy to monkey around with jsons, it's hard to change code and design areas.

The lab portal in particular is frustrating because you can tell that idea was supposed to happen but was abandoned for some reason.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!


the nutrition system, inventory overhaul, etc were all large scale code changes and do not have the excuse of being a tinkering change like that. there's really no good reason why end game or game expansion initiatives have been so thoroughly abandoned other than lack of will.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


Coolguye posted:

FEMA shelters in particular could provide an angle to a retirement option on your game, where if you clean it out, restore power and water, and bring in at least a dozen NPCs you can simply retire the character as a winner, complete with a montage of where are they now clips based upon your achievements.
What, are you crazy? Why would any survivor camp occupy an existing structure, especially one tailor made for such scenarios? No, my friend, survivor camps must be built in the wilderness, from scratch, on barren dirt. I have never once heard of a zombie or post-apocalyptic story where an organized group of survivors ever occupied large or iconic structures left empty by the ravages of the apocalypse. They are all, to a one, set in log cabins in the middle of dusty fields.

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



This seems to be one of those Tarkov situations where I wonder how much the coders actually play the game. Tarkov keeps making changes that are based on the experience of all the top streamers because the head of the project doesn't want to play the game at all until its totally done, so he's literally never played the game he's making

Also I have no idea what has changed in the way I play the game, maybe it's literally just dropping backpacks which I never used to do, but man I've really been killing it. I killed my last character in a really stupid way that was 100% my fault but this guy just killed a Migo on Day 1 with a cudgel and no armor aside from the starting clothes

RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Apr 28, 2021

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss


RazzleDazzleHour posted:

This seems to be one of those Tarkov situations where I wonder how much the coders actually play the game. Tarkov keeps making changes that are based on the experience of all the top streamers because the head of the project doesn't want to play the game at all until its totally done, so he's literally never played the game he's making
That explains a whole lot.
Devs who balance their game around the top players really make some terrible decisions for the rest of us.

MonkeyforaHead
Apr 7, 2006

God, you vindictive bitch, why can't I ever have any "me" time

Vib Rib posted:

I strongly agree, both bionics and mutagens in a normal playthrough come past the point you'd need them, and even stuff like special sleep or dietary requirements end up being meaningless because you've got a huge base or mobile cruiser that's stocked to the gills anyway.
God forbid we get mutations early, when they might make a difference to the way the game plays.

So I just figured out how to add mutations to custom professions and started building some around my D&D characters. watch out here I gooooooo

Tin Tim
Jun 4, 2012

Live by the pun - Die by the pun



Is there a mod or cheat to make yourself immortal? I wanna do a casual game where I can explore and gently caress around with the content I never touch/get to see. Iirc you can save-scum on the death screen but I don't even want to land there in first place if possible

Rynoto
Apr 27, 2009
It doesn't help that I'm fat as fuck, so my face shouldn't be shown off in the first place.

Tin Tim posted:

Is there a mod or cheat to make yourself immortal? I wanna do a casual game where I can explore and gently caress around with the content I never touch/get to see. Iirc you can save-scum on the death screen but I don't even want to land there in first place if possible

It has a built in 'debug' menu that has the ability to spawn items, edit your characters at will, spawn mobs - basically anything. (wiki)

Leal
Oct 2, 2009

Makin my way downthread
Postin fast
Shitposts pass
and I'm probed now


Just be aware that they unironically put the "you have not grown, you have not learned" speech when you access the debug menu :v:

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


Hrmmm this start is going too well, gotta restart and see if I can make it more challenging/fun.

*Walks outside, a working mostly fully loaded Electric minitank is outside the evac center*

Nah too easy.

*Walks into nearby town, a working fully loaded m60 Patton MBT is parked in a street*

....welp guess Im tanking it.

Manager Hoyden
Mar 5, 2020



Anyone have a recommendation for a tileset that's not deadpeople or chesthole? Both of those are great, I'm just looking to shake things up a little for the next run.

I guess the real question is which tilesets are as finished as those, because I got real spoiled with deadpeople having tiles for everything and all major mods

Xand_Man
Mar 2, 2004

If what you say is true
Wutang might be dangerous




Manager Hoyden posted:

Anyone have a recommendation for a tileset that's not deadpeople or chesthole? Both of those are great, I'm just looking to shake things up a little for the next run.

I guess the real question is which tilesets are as finished as those, because I got real spoiled with deadpeople having tiles for everything and all major mods

I'm a big fan of retrodays

Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation. I actually named my daughter after the Pink ranger and will provide proof if challenged.


Telsa Cola posted:

Hrmmm this start is going too well, gotta restart and see if I can make it more challenging/fun.

*Walks outside, a working mostly fully loaded Electric minitank is outside the evac center*

Nah too easy.

*Walks into nearby town, a working fully loaded m60 Patton MBT is parked in a street*

....welp guess Im tanking it.

drat, in mainline? Im on BN and have never seen either

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


Dandywalken posted:

drat, in mainline? Im on BN and have never seen either

BN but im fairly sure they are part of the tank and related vehicles modpack.

If you would like I can find out for sure and let you know.

Tin Tim
Jun 4, 2012

Live by the pun - Die by the pun



Rynoto posted:

It has a built in 'debug' menu that has the ability to spawn items, edit your characters at will, spawn mobs - basically anything. (wiki)
Not quite what I'm looking for in regards to god mode but thanks! I guess I can abuse the kill command to just delete mobs when I can't deal

ducttape
Mar 1, 2008


Tin Tim posted:

Is there a mod or cheat to make yourself immortal? I wanna do a casual game where I can explore and gently caress around with the content I never touch/get to see. Iirc you can save-scum on the death screen but I don't even want to land there in first place if possible

The character template files are mostly plaintext. A character with 9999 in all stats is pretty mortality deficient. Throw in 9999 speed, and you don’t really have to worry pressures like hunger, sleep, daylight, etc., although you will always have your stamina bar empty.

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Inglonias
Mar 7, 2013

I WILL PUT THIS FLAG ON FREAKING EVERYTHING BECAUSE IT IS SYMBOLIC AS HELL SOMEHOW



There's a debug mutation for invincibility.

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