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Quinntan posted:Hey Gal, what sort of training do your guys do? I know there isn't any boot camp or anything like that, but how would you have learned to be a soldier in the Thirty Years War? Rookies got paired up with a veteran who would show them the ropes on how to be a soldier. 781: Charlemagne is crowned King of Italy by pope Adrian I.
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Dec 3, 2015 13:10
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feedmegin posted:Hispanic is 'people from Spain and Portugal after centuries of mixing with people from South/Central America'. People from South America and people from Spain generally look different. Why is that? Wasn't the Latin name for Iberia "Hispania"?
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Dec 3, 2015 13:14
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Hazzard posted:Why is that? Wasn't the Latin name for Iberia "Hispania"? Well, yes. That doesn't mean it now refers to people in that area. Like, no-one in Europe uses the word that way. Similarly 'British' does not today mean 'the Celtic people south of Scotland and also in northwest France' and 'French' doesn't mean 'those Germanic dudes living in most of continental Europe'.
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Dec 3, 2015 13:21
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I'm reading Bernal Diaz's account of the conquest of the Aztec Empire, and he repeatedly mentions that after battles they rendered the fat of the dead Indians to dress their wounds. He just mentions it like its no biggie. Does Hegel, or anyone else, have any context for this? Was it ever done to European dead? Also, I have very little desire to get involved in this Niall Ferguson/GGS argument, but it was interesting to read that for at least one battle, Cortes' men switched out their sword and bucklers for Indian-made, obsidian-headed pikes.
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Dec 3, 2015 13:24
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Tomn posted:Seriously? I'm honestly kinda curious now if there's any modern-day armies that tend to slack on basic sanitation, and simultaneously kinda afraid to learn the answer. But uhh,seriously if you are the commander of men who have not even had high school education, good luck convincing your men to buy into "hygiene". Tomn posted:This assumes that there exists no instructors in the art of wrestling than the guy covered in crap. Since there are, clean yourself up if you want anyone to give you the time of day. In a general case, of course, no one can claim to know Truth. In this specific case, no poster has even understood my point re: Niall Ferguson falling into the trap of ideology in a way we would be wise to learn from re: antidevelopmental factors in any given human civilization, and replied. So as far as I know, such a person does not exist, which strengthens my argument. Keldoclock fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 13:35
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I skipped alot of the last 100 posts or so, but I'd be surprised if somebody mentioned "the state" or in other words, functionally differentiated institutions as one of the big reasons of success of the western systems from the early modern period onward. As posted before, the Ottomans ran a huge number of reforms to make their institutions work somewhat rationally and disentangle competences, but they don't "succeed" until very late, or in some aspects not at all until Atatürk. Hegel and me were hugging some phantastically sophisticated, huge and ornamented cannons in the HGM and we talked about the amount of thought and knowhow that went into these pieces and what makes it different from the stuff that came before. These items are outward symptoms of some kind of intellectual phenomenon that also encompasses statecraft, which organizes everything around these pieces and the people that make the machine run. If you move through the rooms you can clearly see in the material quality of these items that several quantum leaps took place in terms of the connection between the material and intellectual production. You don't have this profound connection between intellectual production and labor on such a scale elsewhere. While there are several universities in Turkey that are older, the first modern one, that was separated from the religious institutions dates back to the late 18th or early 19th century. Btw, the Ottomans always relied on Italian specialists to cast their guns and update their firearms.
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Dec 3, 2015 13:45
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JaucheCharly posted:While there are several universities in Turkey that are older, the first modern one, that was separated from the religious institutions dates back to the late 18th or early 19th century. That doesn't really put them much behind the West, though? Oxford and Cambridge were (and technically still are) religious institutions, founded to train clergy. Separation of church and state isn't a thing before the Enlightenment in the 18th century.
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Dec 3, 2015 13:51
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JaucheCharly posted:While there are several universities in Turkey that are older, the first modern one, that was separated from the religious institutions dates back to the late 18th or early 19th century. That's about the time they start appearing in Christian Europe as well .
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Dec 3, 2015 14:04
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Correction, late 19th cent, getting closed constantly.
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Dec 3, 2015 14:13
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Hogge Wild posted:Could you post them next? Had to go digging on my Facebook to find them, but here you go:       
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Dec 3, 2015 14:22
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Can anybody go into the history of commissioned officers? In particular how they made the ideological jump from "I command by right of lineage and noble rank" to "I command because I have a paper from the king (or the king's duly appointed representative) saying I do."
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Dec 3, 2015 14:27
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lol
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Dec 3, 2015 14:38
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I'm not sure if this should go here or in the Roman thread, but here goes. I was doing some reading about Rorke's Drift, which led to reading about the Zulu Impis, which lead to reading about Shaka's reforms in warfare. He took the traditional long spear and small shield of the Zulu and changed them to a much larger shield and a shorter, stabbing spear. He kept the long spear for the troops to throw prior to engaging with the enemy in close quarters. What it reminded me of was the Roman soldiers armed with their short stabbing swords and large shields. Anyone think this is an example of convergent evolution in warfare? Two groups independently arrive at a similar conclusion to the same problem? Armyman25 fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 14:51
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Also, just to show how perfectly 6'2 the Growler bunks are: That's me on one of the replica bunks they have in the "learning center" section of the Intrepid. You know that thing where you put a perfectly sized cardboard box into another box and it just slowly slides down by itself? That probably would have happened if you lowered me in from the top.
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Dec 3, 2015 14:59
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Hogge Wild posted:Now Russia and China are poorer than Western countries, but that has more to do with other reasons like socialism rather than wars that ended hundreds of years ago. Congrats on being wronger than Keldoclock ever has. Apparently WWII both wasn't massively destructive and ended hundreds of years ago.
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Dec 3, 2015 15:27
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xthetenth posted:Congrats on being wronger than Keldoclock ever has. Were Soviet Union and China the only countries involved in WWII?
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Dec 3, 2015 15:42
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My nature desires that I state that both Russia and China went from backwards countries that had lost humiliating wars against a range of opponents, with tiny industrial bases, (and in the Chinese example suffered from imposed conditions such as the inability to try foreigners of crimes committed, and even prevent opium from being sold to their citizens) to world powers while socialist. For gently caress's sake, despite the famine the life expectancy of the Chinese went up by leaps [  ] and bounds under Mao. To blame socialism is the rankest stupidity, I think any student of history should be smarter than falling for the propaganda of the business class.
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Dec 3, 2015 15:45
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Hogge Wild posted:Were Soviet Union and China the only countries involved in WWII? Pre-socialist Russia and China: known for being fantastically rich and well developed.
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Dec 3, 2015 15:46
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Hogge Wild posted:Were Soviet Union and China the only countries involved in WWII? Other countries (including the western half of Germany) were really not ravaged to anywhere near the same extent, and/or forced to pick up the pieces on their own. For example GDP in the US rose over the course of the war, in Russia it fell significantly, and that's ignoring that most of it was spent on military. The UK rebuilt after WWII *by* swinging strongly to the left.
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Dec 3, 2015 15:50
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feedmegin posted:Pre-socialist Russia and China: known for being fantastically rich and well developed. Unironically true for China prior to the Industrial Revolution, and even then it was more in comparison to the Western powers that it appeared underdeveloped (and was still pretty rich - there was a reason why everyone wanted to break into the China trade, after all).
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Dec 3, 2015 15:51
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Tomn posted:Unironically true for China prior to the Industrial Revolution, and even then it was more in comparison to the Western powers that it appeared underdeveloped (and was still pretty rich - there was a reason why everyone wanted to break into the China trade, after all). China's state in the mid 18th century isn't really relevant to the question 'were people in China poorer than Germans because socialism'... (Not to mention that if you're going that route, you should probably be attributing its current strong economic state to socialism too  )
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Dec 3, 2015 15:56
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Hazzard posted:
This varies a lot depending on place and time. Escaped African slaves frequently joined together with natives ( probably displaced from their own original homes) in maroon communities in the jungles, swamps, highlands etc. Geography made expeditions to stamp these out quite challenging, so the slavers would sometimes cut deals to leave the maroon communities alone if they turned over any future escapees. The US is a bit of an outlier in this respect as the natives were mostly already exterminated and there was nowhere nearby for slaves to run to. Seminole wars would be the obvious exception here.
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Dec 3, 2015 16:22
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Quinntan posted:Hey Gal, what sort of training do your guys do? I know there isn't any boot camp or anything like that, but how would you have learned to be a soldier in the Thirty Years War? According to David Parrott and, therefore, me: you'd pick it up by osmosis eventually, if you hang around more experienced people. The evidence that supports this is that there's no mention in archival sources of people doing anything like drill, and scattered mentions of "more experienced people who help train newer ones," like I just finished an article on military jurisprudence in the Tyrol in the 30s where an oberst said that he wanted one of his soldiers pardoned because "he was a good soldier and helped train the younger people." JaucheCharly posted:Btw, the Ottomans always relied on Italian specialists to cast their guns and update their firearms. seriously, if you were a weapons dude and also italian you could always find a good job somewhere in a place that was not fortunate enough to be italian Mr Enderby posted:I'm reading Bernal Diaz's account of the conquest of the Aztec Empire, and he repeatedly mentions that after battles they rendered the fat of the dead Indians to dress their wounds. He just mentions it like its no biggie. Does Hegel, or anyone else, have any context for this? Was it ever done to European dead? quote:Also, I have very little desire to get involved in this Niall Ferguson/GGS argument, but it was interesting to read that for at least one battle, Cortes' men switched out their sword and bucklers for Indian-made, obsidian-headed pikes.
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Dec 3, 2015 16:33
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Hogge Wild posted:Were Soviet Union and China the only countries involved in WWII? The USSR was the site of literally infinitely more of WWII than the US, and a comparison to the size of the US economy is pretty relevant considering what happened next. There wasn't an economy on earth up to matching the US in the Cold War, let alone the host of most of the Eastern Front. For China, the Japanese invasion was kind of a big thing, never mind all the other fighting they had to deal with. Also regarding the whole Niall thing, I think that a decent amount of the time people tend to conflate what Western countries did with the only right way of doing things. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 16:40
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feedmegin posted:Well, yes. That doesn't mean it now refers to people in that area. Like, no-one in Europe uses the word that way. Similarly 'British' does not today mean 'the Celtic people south of Scotland and also in northwest France' and 'French' doesn't mean 'those Germanic dudes living in most of continental Europe'. edit: there are also black hispanics, and the philipino/as are asian hispanics. i think hispanic is anyone who comes from the hispanophone or lusophone world and wants to be called hispanic HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 16:41
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Tomn posted:Seriously? I'm honestly kinda curious now if there's any modern-day armies that tend to slack on basic sanitation, and simultaneously kinda afraid to learn the answer. Well, I found a cite in a book called "Challenges in military healthcare" by Jay Stanley and John D. Blair: quote:Virtually nonexistent field sanitation and a host of associated preventable diseases had a disasterous impact on Field Marshal Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps in 1942." That's from a quick googling, though, and I can't see where they got it from. My source was my epidemiology lecturer.
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Dec 3, 2015 16:53
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xthetenth posted:The USSR was the site of literally infinitely more of WWII than the US, and a comparison to the size of the US economy is pretty relevant considering what happened next. There wasn't an economy on earth up to matching the US in the Cold War, let alone the host of most of the Eastern Front. The US is a complete outlier in World War II by being a major part of the conflict and almost totally free of threat. Outside of Pearl Harbor (which I should remind everyone wasn't actually part of an American state until 1959, so it was hardly striking the homeland like blowing up a California naval base would have been), the US never saw anything more than a few saboteur operations that were mostly complete failures. They never had to worry about losing tank manufacturing capacity by having their factories get carpet bombed, or German tanks suddenly rolling into Delaware. On the other hand, just about every country that was the site of battle in the war still bears the scars today. HEY GAL posted:i think they still use hispanic for the spanish and portugese in the US, like on the US census there's an option to check a box next to "hispanic" and then you can narrow that down in another question to "white hispanic" or another choice. The way I've heard it, Hispanic is any Spanish-speaker while Latino/Latina is someone descended from the Spanish/Portuguese settlers and Native Americans in South and Central America and the Caribbean. However, this still gets hosed up by a general tendency to use "Hispanic" as a broad term to refer to Latino people as well, including self-identification as "Hispanic" by someone who thinks they should mean the same thing anyway.
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Dec 3, 2015 16:55
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chitoryu12 posted:The way I've heard it, Hispanic is any Spanish-speaker while Latino/Latina is someone descended from the Spanish/Portuguese settlers and Native Americans in South and Central America and the Caribbean. However, this still gets hosed up by a general tendency to use "Hispanic" as a broad term to refer to Latino people as well, including self-identification as "Hispanic" by someone who thinks they should mean the same thing anyway.
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Dec 3, 2015 16:58
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6cpU_iIqLs
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Dec 3, 2015 17:10
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:China basically fought a long-rear end war from 1911 to 1950, the most devastating being the Japanese occupation, but it's not like low intensity civil war is a cakewalk either. Then they fight a bunch of other wars like Korea and Vietnam, while getting double-hosed by Maoist economic/social policy and that boondoggle. A modernising, non-hosed China is, like, a 40 year old state China was only torn up by those wars because the imperial government had been disfunctional for decades. The Taiping Rebellion posts here make it painfully clear how bad the central government had become. I suspect a stronger dynasty would have let China's experience be much like Japan's: changed by contact with Europeans, but not carved up or occupied. Squalid posted:I think the whole narrative of Eastern stagnation is extremely played out. Asian societies continuously changed and evolved after 1500, as posters like P-Mack can easily point out. The perception that they were static is largely an artifact of our own ignorance. I'm going to disagree with you, only because of the context we're discussing. They were more or less static in their war capabilities, so they were falling behind Europe. That's really all that mattered when the Europeans show up, make demands, and start running out the cannon. As for "The West," it's used so vaguely it's become a pet peeve of mine.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:24
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BurningStone posted:China was only torn up by those wars because the imperial government had been disfunctional for decades. The Taiping Rebellion posts here make it painfully clear how bad the central government had become. I suspect a stronger dynasty would have let China's experience be much like Japan's: changed by contact with Europeans, but not carved up or occupied.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:28
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HEY GAL posted:yes. human fat has magical properties. so do bones, especially skulls, and a bunch of other poo poo. does your source mention specifically who procured the fat? in early modern germany, executioners are usually the ones who make medicines out of dead people, because they, well, have a steady supply, but also because they can work healing magic. After the first big rumble when they land, Dias says: "We doctored the horses by searing their wounds with the fat from the body of dead Indian which we cut up to get out the fat," then a few sentences later "we seared the wounds of the others and of the horses with the fat of the Indian..." That's as much detail as he goes into, but from then on after most battles, he mentions using fat from the corpses on their wounds. That's cool about executioners. It reminds me of the idea that mandrakes grow from the semen/general effluvia of hanged men.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:29
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Mr Enderby posted:After the first big rumble when they land, Dias says: quote:That's cool about executioners. It reminds me of the idea that mandrakes grow from the semen/general effluvia of hanged men.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:32
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Hazzard posted:I took the original comment to mean they're used to different exercise. Like taking an Olympic Athlete who is really used to running long distances and then having them do weight lifting. They're definitely physically fit, but they aren't used to a different form of exercise. Assuming I've got this right. African slaves can't run home and Native Americans would probably hand escaped slaves back for the sake of keeping the Whites happy. Ummmm... nope. That's just not how that works. For one this was a nigh constant thing, Amerindians quite often took in escaped Africans. You're just reading the work of racist shitheads bumblefucking their way towards a 'biological' justification of their atrocity. Nothing in lifestyle was causing these problems, people were collapsing from exhaustion because it was cheaper to work them for 15-hours in backbreaking conditions and then buy replacements for whoever didn't make the cut that week. Al-Farabi post inbound at some point I guess.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:40
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BurningStone posted:I'm going to disagree with you, only because of the context we're discussing. They were more or less static in their war capabilities, so they were falling behind Europe. That's really all that mattered when the Europeans show up, make demands, and start running out the cannon. Sooooo... War = only relevant measure of progress. Also an entire continent was 'more or less static' (during unspecified period). Yup. Certainly never any changes. Over a whole continent.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:52
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the JJ posted:Sooooo... War = only relevant measure of progress. Please, you're skipping the very first sentence of my post. As I said, only within the context being discussed (the spread of European domination - I'm replying to things a few pages back). When it comes to fighting off foreign invasions, hard power is what matters. I not making any claims about philosophy, religion, administration, etc, etc. But European imperialism worked through war, or the threat of war.
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Dec 3, 2015 18:05
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BurningStone posted:Please, you're skipping the very first sentence of my post. As I said, only within the context being discussed (the spread of European domination - I'm replying to things a few pages back). When it comes to fighting off foreign invasions, hard power is what matters. I not making any claims about philosophy, religion, administration, etc, etc. But European imperialism worked through war, or the threat of war. I think that's definitely a simplistic look. 'War,' like any other human endeavor, is connected to all the other human endeavors. Also you're pointing at a whole continent over 500 years and going 'yeah, basically static.' Which is, as pointed out, dumb and wrong from like three different directions.
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Dec 3, 2015 18:46
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100 Years Ago We've already examined how the British War Committee became subject to Bonar Law. Now I must report to you that the German Fifth Army's staff has von Knobelsdorf at its head, and: gossip alert! Erich von Falkenhayn has recently been spending a lot of time with von Knobelsdorf. This surely can't augur anything good for France. (Alternatively: Today's post is mostly a long and serious discussion of the factors that led General von Falkenhayn to select Verdun as the location for his upcoming major offensive. Pick whichever summary you prefer.) HEY GAL posted:as an american, i think we're being accidentally racist right now I dunno, is that racist?
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Dec 3, 2015 18:49
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my dad posted:I'm pretty sure it's a joke meant to compare/contrast it with the White Man's Burden. feedmegin posted:Like, no-one in Europe uses the word that way. 
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Dec 3, 2015 19:18
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HEY GAL posted:edit: oh, and certain areas have sickness in them for reasons these people don't know. like parts of italy have malaria in them or something. there's places with unhealthy climate. Malaria, literally 'bad air'. Some sort of gas that comes out of swamps at night? I dunno, I just know people get malaria when near/in these places
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