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Rodrigo Diaz posted:You're assuming coinage would be worth anything in these villages where they may not even know who's king these days. The coin would still have value. Foreign coins were accepted routinely based on their precious metal content clear through the early modern period at least. Money isn't backed only by the word of the government until much later.
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Jan 2, 2016 16:48
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Cyrano4747 posted:The coin would still have value. Foreign coins were accepted routinely based on their precious metal content clear through the early modern period at least. Money isn't backed only by the word of the government until much later. As can be seen by all the viking hoards full of Arabic, Persian and African coins.
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Jan 2, 2016 17:03
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Libluini posted:People from the north always wander around, probably because staring at the North Sea was always alternating between boring and dangerous in those times. easy choice edit: the duchy of pomerania! what the gently caress is going on up there that any sane human being would care about! HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 17:22
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HEY GAL posted:hmmm: get shot at, live in mecklenburg. Or alternatively live in Mecklenburg and still get shot at We are talking about a country that went to war over the question whether first cousins should be allowed to marry
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Jan 2, 2016 18:18
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101 Years Ago Catching up. Here's the 31st of December, in which Flora Sandes gets promoted and various people continue their quest to gently caress Greece up from all sides. Spoilers: that just isn't going to end well for anyone. There's also a very brief roundup of the year.
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Jan 2, 2016 18:34
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Cyrano4747 posted:The coin would still have value. Foreign coins were accepted routinely based on their precious metal content clear through the early modern period at least. Money isn't backed only by the word of the government until much later. Precious metal isn't worth that much when you are in an isolated village compared to, say, a city. Nenonen posted:As can be seen by all the viking hoards full of Arabic, Persian and African coins. Vikings were avid traders, they weren't farmers sitting in the mountains of Mesopotamia
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Jan 2, 2016 19:27
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Precious metal isn't worth that much when you are in an isolated village compared to, say, a city. By that token why would they accept any currency?
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Jan 2, 2016 20:01
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Cyrano4747 posted:By that token why would they accept any currency? I'm not sure if you're using currency in the narrow or broad sense, but trading a slave or a pack animal for some wine or whatever is more viable than trading a weight of coins for the same.
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Jan 2, 2016 20:43
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Gold coin > copper coin e: Just to make it clear, it's exactly the other way around like you suggested. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 21:09
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ArchangeI posted:We are talking about a country that went to war over the question whether first cousins should be allowed to marry Which war is this? This sounds like the War of Jenkins Ear to me.
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Jan 2, 2016 21:41
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Hazzard posted:Which war is this? This sounds like the War of Jenkins Ear to me. In 1576, the city of Rostock published a Policey-Ordnung, which is a set of laws dealing with a fuckload of issues, from swearing to witchcraft to proper scales to firefighting. One of the issues was who exactly could marry who in the city. The ordinance specifically said that first cousins could marry. At the same time, the duke of Mecklenburg, to which the city of Rostock technically belonged, also published a Policey-Ordnung. In the duke's version, first cousins were not allowed to marry (second cousin and on was fine). Long story short, the duke demanded that the city change their law, the city said no because publishing their own Policey-ordnung was part of an effort to break free of the duke, and so the duke did what dukes do best and besieged the city. The peace treaty specified that the city had to change the law on marriage (along with a number of other issues, but the marriage thing really stuck out). He later wrote them a letter asking how the whole law changing thing was going because the Rostockers were dragging their feet, and the whole thing pretty much repeated itself. After that, there was no more discussion, and presumably the duke's ordnung stuck. It gets a lot less confusing when you realize that seats on the city council were hereditary, and that the city council was also responsible for writing the Policey-ordnung.
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Jan 2, 2016 22:24
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Yuck
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Jan 2, 2016 23:09
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:I'm not sure if you're using currency in the narrow or broad sense, but trading a slave or a pack animal for some wine or whatever is more viable than trading a weight of coins for the same. Surely the Persian Empire was advanced enough at the time that even a remote village would have use for cash money? It's not like they're an uncontacted tribe, even if they only go to market twice a year or whatever. If nothing else, maybe they could pay taxes with it.
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Jan 3, 2016 04:13
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Alekanderu posted:Surely the Persian Empire was advanced enough at the time that even a remote village would have use for cash money? It's not like they're an uncontacted tribe, even if they only go to market twice a year or whatever. If nothing else, maybe they could pay taxes with it. I mean, on the one hand they're in a more isolated corner of a pretty decentralized empire, on the other hand you're right in that they're not that far from major cities. Incidentally, we totally have records of Persepolis* switching over to taxation in coin instead of taxation in kind and it's kickin' rad. *so, Persian Empire, but obviously this isn't empire wide, just that region. They did satrapies in the periphery.
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Jan 3, 2016 06:15
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So uh, would you guys say that Churchill and the admiralty crowd funded the development of the Mark IV?
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Jan 3, 2016 06:28
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Awesome post, and it reminded me of an interview my dad did with my grandfather who was a B-24 gunner. Here's hoping someone else appreciates it, and shares stories of their own. Air gunners are the unsung heroes of the Air War during World War Two. Their stories, the training they followed and experiences they shared have been left largely untold. This is the story of one such air gunner that served during World War Two. Minutes after Canada officially entered World War Two in September 1939, I had made up my mind to join the Permanent Force. After all, at the outbreak of World War I, my father had joined the Canadian Army and done his duty for the Dominion of Canada. So, when I was afforded the same opportunity, it only seemed natural that I should follow in my fathers’ footsteps. Unfortunately for me, I was too young to join at the outbreak of the War. So, I had to watch, with folded arms, as my brothers marched off to war. In the meantime, I joined the NonPermanent Active Militia for a time (207 Toronto Regiment, Royal Canadian Artillery (RCA)). The next few years, however, seemed unbearably long days seemed like months and weeks like years until September 23 that date, I joined the Canadian Army (Permanent Force). I initially joined as a gunner/driver in “C” Battery in the Royal Canadian Artillery Field (RCAFld) in Petawawa, Ontario, but the whole process seemed to take forever. I became disheartened even further when I found out that the minimum age for overseas service was 19. That meant I would have to stay in Canada and wait almost a whole year before being sent to fight the Axis in Europe. So, to keep busy, I took up singing in a barbershop quartet and boxing where my opponents took as much pleasure trying to break my nose as fighting the enemy. It was around this same time that I heard that the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) needed air gunners for their bombers. Air crew casualties on bomber aircraft were particularly high in 1943. I also read in the newspapers that, following an Atlantic Convoy Conference held in Washington, DC, in March 1943, both Canada and Britain were to become entirely responsible for convoys along the North Atlantic Route. This decision, in and by itself, created a huge demand for more aircrews. Then in September 1943, Fascist Italy surrendered. So, after only six months in the Artillery, I requested a transfer to the RCAF. On February, 1944, my request was approved and I was given the rank of aircraftman Second Class (AC2) and sent to 3 Wireless School (WS) in Winnipeg, Manitoba – or “Winterpeg” as it was known even back then because the winters were so cold where I completed my wireless training, along with some much needed aircraft recognition, training. Soon thereafter, I found myself in Mont-Joli, Quebec, at the 3 Air Gunner Training School (AGTS) were I completed my standard air crew training on an old British light bomber called a Fairy Battle. It was an old, cumbersome British bomber that had seen its best days many years before the War had even begun but it still served a useful purpose in training air crews. It was also in MontJoli that I was promoted to the rank of Leading aircraftman (LAC) on, 1944. Six weeks later, I completed air gunner course serial 83 and was promoted to the rank of Sergeant (S). From MontJoli, I was sent to TroisRivières, Quebec where I was given three weeks of Commando training in unarmed combat. This training was necessary for all aircrew in case they were shot down over occupied Europe and needed to fight their way back to safety. Later that fall, I was sent to No. 5 Manning Depot at Lachine, Quebec. While I awaited my new orders, I turned 19. Now that I was eligible to serve overseas, I also felt that it was old enough to make a commitment to my high school sweetheart. So, before my orders came and I was sent overseas, I asked her hand in marriage, she accepted and we were married on October 9. The next phase of my training consisted of meeting my future aircrew. Like some sixty-five percent of Canadian airmen, I was sent to a Royal Air Force Group (RAF GR) rather than a Royal Canadian Air Force squadron. In my case, I was sent to 111 Operational Training Unit (OTU). This unit’s main purpose was to feed the RAF Coastal Command in the UK. This new phase of training began on one of the approximately 2,000 B 24 Liberators operated by the RAF during the war. These U.S. designed, fourengine bombers were “unquestionably the most successful antisubmarine aircraft ever built”. In fact, postwar records showed that this plane destroyed twice as many submarines as any of its friendly rivals. I also looked forward to my new assignment because Liberator units were considered the “elite of the RCAF’s Home War Establishment”. From my perspective the twin .50 calibre machine guns in the powered gun turret in the nose called the “Emerson turret” proved too hard to resist. So, I made sure that I was assigned to be the crew’s nose gunner. My joy of being assigned this position was made all that much better when I discovered that we would do a large portion of our training at Windsor Field, Nassau, Bahamas beginning in December 1944 when everyone back in Canada had to deal with the cold and the snow. Aside from the constant threat of sunburns on the ground and frostbite in the air, our training in the Bahamas proved to be a “stooge” (uneventful). Looking back, two things stood out for me while I was in the Bahamas besides spending Christmas under palm trees. First, B24 Liberators were neither heated nor pressurized, so cold was our deadliest enemy. I cannot count the number of injuries sustained by aircrews that trained in the Bahamas because of the cold weather at high altitudes. Almost everyday somebody came back from a training flight with frostbite on their face, hands or feet. This danger was made even more dangerous given that we were being trained with the “Leigh Light” (enormous search light used to illuminate surfaced submarines at night). Learning how to use the latter meant we had to conduct a lot of our training at night and that only made the cold temperatures at high altitudes worse. The fear of frostbite made it necessary to dress warm. So, whenever we went on a flight we had to dress up like a North Pole explorer. Our first layer of clothing was composed of woolen underwear. Over this we had on a pair of fleecelined leather pants and a sheepskin “bomber jacket”. Next came the flying gloves that went as far back as the elbow, sheepskinlined boots anda “MaeWest” life jacket in case we had to “ditch” (forced landing in the sea). Needless to say, once you had put on this gear you could not wait to get up in the air before you sweated to death. Especially when you were in the Caribbean like we were! The only other major event I remember from my days with 111 OTU in the Bahamas was the time I met the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. Sometime on New Years Eve 1945, the same day the Germans launched their last major air assault against the Allies, called Operation “Bodenplatte,” I found myself along with a lot of other Allied servicemen in a local civilian club in Nassau sharing tales of home along with one, two or maybe three fermented beverages when, much to our surprise the Duke and Duchess of Windsor walked in. Before you could say “Jack Benney” the whole Club grew silent so as to allow the Duke to say a few kind words to us expressing his gratitude of behalf of the Empire. I have long since forgotten what he had said to us that day but I will never forget the impression this small, frail and unimposing man, the former King of England, had left on me that day. We were eventually sent to the RAF Coastal Command, and more specifically to 224 Squadron, located in Milltown, Scotland, where we flew our aircraft nicknamed “Taurus.” Unfortunately, we arrived some nine days after VE day. So, we ended up spending a couple of weeks patrolling the northern coastline of Scotland looking for German submarines that were willing to surrender. We eventually ceased operations and were sent to 18 Aircraft holding unit (ACHU) where we waited for the war against Japan to end or for our orders to be sent to Asia – whichever came first. As it turned out, the Japanese surrendered before we were sent to Asia. In hindsight, I find it ironic that, in my haste to do my share like my brothers, I actually missed that which I had sought for so many years. On the other hand, my fate may have, in fact, proven to be a blessing, because I learned a lot about human beings during those formative years. I also learned a lot about being a man, a friend, a husband and a father. I eventually stayed in the military and retired in 1972.
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Jan 3, 2016 08:11
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Awesome post, and it reminded me of an interview my dad did with my grandfather who was a B-24 gunner. Here's hoping someone else appreciates it, and shares stories of their own. I don't have it with me at the moment, but for awhile I had my grandfathers journal from WWII, he was a navigator on a B-17 with the 12th Airforce. If I remember correctly he was the lead navigator on two of the bombing runs and their aircraft did get hit a couple of times by flak and fighters. One thing in the journal that made me tear up a bit was he mentioned "poor dumb southern boy we all made fun of bought it", it seemed like he was their tail gunner and that mission they counted 200+ bullet holes in the rear of the plane before they gave up counting. Somehow he managed to survive 49 missions, and when he was sent on leave to England the flight there counted as his 50th. He went back to the USA to train as a B-29 pilot, but the war ended just after he finished his training, there are a couple of articles in the Seattle times my uncle found of him promoting buying war bonds and such.
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Jan 3, 2016 09:05
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Jack2142 posted:I don't have it with me at the moment, but for awhile I had my grandfathers journal from WWII, he was a navigator on a B-17 with the 12th Airforce. If I remember correctly he was the lead navigator on two of the bombing runs and their aircraft did get hit a couple of times by flak and fighters. One thing in the journal that made me tear up a bit was he mentioned "poor dumb southern boy we all made fun of bought it", it seemed like he was their tail gunner and that mission they counted 200+ bullet holes in the rear of the plane before they gave up counting. Somehow he managed to survive 49 missions, and when he was sent on leave to England the flight there counted as his 50th. He went back to the USA to train as a B-29 pilot, but the war ended just after he finished his training, there are a couple of articles in the Seattle times my uncle found of him promoting buying war bonds and such. This stuff makes me wish my grandpa was more of a talker or a writer. He was a radio op on a Victory ship in the Pacific. Yes, that's right, a victory ship. The kind they made during ww1. 15 years later and his ship was still around, which was a little surprising they tended to catastrophically fail, ie crack in two in heavy seas. He told me that most of the time they weren't worried about japanese attack; they just hoped the hull didn't crack in storms.
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Jan 3, 2016 12:12
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Sometime on New Years Eve 1945, the same day the Germans launched their last major air assault against the Allies, called Operation “Bodenplatte,” Awesome stuff. Minor correction though, I presume he meant New Years Day - by New Years Eve 1945 the war was over!
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Jan 3, 2016 14:39
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Grand Prize Winner posted:This stuff makes me wish my grandpa was more of a talker or a writer. He was a radio op on a Victory ship in the Pacific. Yes, that's right, a victory ship. The kind they made during ww1. 15 years later and his ship was still around, which was a little surprising they tended to catastrophically fail, ie crack in two in heavy seas. He told me that most of the time they weren't worried about japanese attack; they just hoped the hull didn't crack in storms. I loved my grandpa's war stories. He was a turret guy on a destroyer that spent the entire war patrolling the Brazilian coast (he was an American) for submarines. He became a Southern Baptist preacher after the war, but he'd readily admit that his ship never fired a shot in anger and he spent the entire war getting drunk and laid.
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Jan 3, 2016 15:06
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My maternal grandfather lied about his age to enlist after Pearl Harbor, and briefly served in the US Navy. When they found out he was 15, he was sent to work in a shipyard and spent the rest of the war there. He didn't tell stories because I think he felt guilty that he didn't fight on the ship. My stepdad's father was a bomber pilot who firebombed Hamburg. For the rest of his life he couldn't eat mutton because the smell reminded him of burning human flesh.
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Jan 3, 2016 20:15
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feedmegin posted:Awesome stuff. Minor correction though, I presume he meant New Years Day - by New Years Eve 1945 the war was over! Ha, I'll have to point my dad at that so he can fix it. Thanks!
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Jan 3, 2016 20:43
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Chamale posted:My maternal grandfather lied about his age to enlist after Pearl Harbor, and briefly served in the US Navy. When they found out he was 15, he was sent to work in a shipyard and spent the rest of the war there. He didn't tell stories because I think he felt guilty that he didn't fight on the ship. Could be worse. My paternal grandpa said he enlisted in the Navy the day after Pearl Harbor to fight the Japanese, and instead his war experience consisted of tropical hookers and booze in a variety of Caribbean and South American ports. He wasn't complaining, but it wasn't what he signed up for.  My maternal grandfather also served but never saw combat. Enlisted in the army but the Army decided he was so good with numbers and paperwork that he sat at a desk in the states for the duration.
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Jan 3, 2016 20:48
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My granddad was a radio man with the army in WW2. He never saw combat, and he mostly goofed around during the war, stealing supplies here and there, and other schenanigans. My favorite story is the one about how he accidentally was sent to the then-top secret radar camp instead of radio camp. I've got his memoirs lying around, and I could post them if anyone was interested.
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Jan 3, 2016 21:16
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I am now well settled in with water, books, study aids, and the complete discography of ABBA. I'm hopeful not only of being caught up but of having a decent buffer in hand again by the time I get to side two of Super Trouper. In the meantime: 100 Years Ago War is poo poo. This is why I have decided to spend the 1st of January 1916 talking about poo poo. Also the dead, and other such cheerful and smelly things. The smell of this war is easy to ignore when you're trying to hold the visual and audible horrors in mind at once, and yet a very large number of people had their own go at describing it, so let's just go over it again. Plus it provides a decent excuse to mention that the Italian Army apparently has no sanitary discipline whatsoever, which I'm sure will get a knowing nod out of HEY GAL. Moving on to a topic only just more bearable, at GHQ General Haig is telling his diary something very important, which I'm sure will in no way rebound ironically upon him at some point in the future. Welcome to 1916. Only 45 more shopping days until Verdun! Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 21:34
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SlothfulCobra posted:I've got his memoirs lying around, and I could post them if anyone was interested.
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Jan 3, 2016 21:39
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Trin Tragula posted:I am now well settled in with water, books, study aids, and the complete discography of ABBA. I'm hopeful not only of being caught up but of having a decent buffer in hand again by the time I get to side two of Super Trouper. In the meantime: So you asked in the blog post about how much poo poo a group of 4000 men would produce. On average, a man produces 1 ounce of poo for every 12 pounds of body weight. Assuming an average weight of 170 pounds per man, that's 14.16 ounces of poo poo a day. Multiplied by 4000 men, that's 3540 pounds (or 1.77 tons) of poo poo per day created by a regiment of 4000.
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Jan 3, 2016 21:55
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chitoryu12 posted:So you asked in the blog post about how much poo poo a group of 4000 men would produce. On average, a man produces 1 ounce of poo for every 12 pounds of body weight. Assuming an average weight of 170 pounds per man, that's 14.16 ounces of poo poo a day. Multiplied by 4000 men, that's 3540 pounds (or 1.77 tons) of poo poo per day created by a regiment of 4000. like how much poo poo am i producing every day besides my posting HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 21:56
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1 ounce of poo for every 12 pounds of body weight. If they get fed the american diet?
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Jan 3, 2016 22:03
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HEY GAL posted:is the poo poo for women the same, or were you using "man" as the generic? Yeah, generic term. I think men and women are the same, it's just based on body weight. This does mean that a 400 pound person will be producing about 2.1 pounds of poo poo per day on average. Which is unfortunate for their bathrooms/diapers.
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Jan 3, 2016 22:04
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JaucheCharly posted:1 ounce of poo for every 12 pounds of body weight. If they get fed the american diet? The American diet, that classic diet we all know and love.
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Jan 3, 2016 23:03
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Taiping Tianguo Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 Part 14 Part 15 Part 16 Part 17 Part 18 Part 19 Part 20 Part 21 Part 22 Part 23 Part 24 The Miao Rebellion =^.^= part 1 The Poorest Province We've discussed in the past how Guangxi( 廣西) and Guangdong(廣東) were poor, unimportant backwaters, far removed from the center of Chinese civilization. Guizhou (貴州) makes them look positively cosmopolitan. The province is crisscrossed by steep mountains and narrow rivers, with only a tiny amount of land suitable for the sort of intensive grain cultivation found elsewhere in China. The rainy climate also does the would be farmer no favors. The saying went "No three feet are level-no three days are clear- no one has more than three cents." Nevertheless, settlers in search of land had come from the crowded heartlands of China until Guizhou as well reached its Malthusian carrying capacity. These Han settlers did not arrive on Terra Nullius. Guizhou had historically been the home of various indigenous peoples, most prominent among them the Miao (苗*). Better known to most as the Hmong, their origins and history prior to the Qing era is a matter of some debate I'll leave to the anthropologists. While Guizhou had long been considered Chinese territory (by the Chinese, at least), this had for a long time consisted of nominal suzerainty over local tribal leaders. As the Qing pushed westward and Han settlement increased, conflict between the aboriginal peoples and the newcomers periodically broke out, typically followed by the government dropping the hammer on the unfortunate Miao. These had culminated in two previous major rebellions first in 1736 and the second from 1796-1805, contemporaneous with the White Lotus. Each of these had left the Miao with considerably reduced numbers. *At the time, the dog radical 犭would have been attached to the character for the Miao or any other minority ethnic group. It's a total mystery why these people didn't like the Chinese more.  Typical Hmong girl So by the 1850s we have a province which has largely been sinicized, but with considerable populations still only marginally integrated with the larger society. Many Miao villages were fortified settlements with palisade walls at the top of plateaus. In the event of trouble, they could be nearly impregnable, at least to a force without heavy artillery (which is a huge pain to transport across mountains and valleys). The government attempted to integrate these populations, making a somewhat condescending distinction between "raw" savage Miao and "cooked" civilized (i.e. sinicized) Miao. Determining how many fell into each category is a challenge, as the more sinicized Miao could and did simply change their names to pass as Chinese, as ethnic boundaries at the time were more fluid than the 55 minzu paradigm of modern China. Special examinations and appointments were reserved for Miao, though in practice these affirmative action degrees were not given the same respect as their Chinese equivalents. Most Miao grievances were not strictly political or cultural, however, but economic. Many had found their land taken from them via shady loans, shenanigans, or outright theft. Disputes over land frequently broke forth into violence which could escalate along community and ethnic lines. The situation was not necessarily clearcut- some Miao were sufficiently civilized to play the role of the unscrupulous landlords, and in many cases the victims of corruption or expropriation were Han Chinese. Many long established Han communities in Guizhou were affected by the increased settlement and competition for land in ways similar to their Miao neighbors. The government would usually settle land disputes by confiscating the disputed land, often incorporating it into military colonist settlements that furthered the sinicization of the province. It is important to note that, as screwed over as the Miao were in many cases, the rebellion was not a simple matter of ethnic rebellion by a people driven to their last resort. Rather, ethnic issues were intertwined with and drove an economic crisis in which violence and rebellion arose from accumulation of local conflicts. A Frog Boiling A succession of governors had done their best to keep the lid on the pot during the 1840's and 1850's. The wise ones, like Hu Linyi (胡林翼), realised the extreme difficulties that would be presented by trying to rely on force to maintain order. The provincial exchequer ran at a deficit, dependent on subsidies from other provinces. Because roads were so poor and navigable rivers unavailable, transportation costs made very few goods practicable for export from Guizhou. This same transportation difficulties made supplying troops inside the province horrifically difficult and expensive. The use of local militias presented an alternative to expensive professional troops, but the extreme poverty of the province meant that any kind of extended campaigning would be difficult to support, either through transport or forage. Militias also needed funding, and the taxes to fund them would provoke new revolt, necessitating a new militia, ad nauseum. Despite the fact that there was so little wealth in the province, corrupt clerks and officials would do their best to extract it. Taxes,nominally low, were enhanced with increasingly onerous fees and surcharges of varying degrees of legality. It was not unheard of for disturbances to start as local communities organized militias in a most curious Chinese version of a tax revolt. Rather than militarize in an attempt to evade taxes, local leaders would put a militia together, collect taxes themselves, and bring them to the district seat to be paid in person. The middlemen who had been used to wetting their beak would naturally protest the irregular arrangement, and the local politics of the situation would determine who was a rebel and who was a patriot. Similar patterns existed throughout China, from Guangxi to Shandong, but the extreme poverty of Guizhou made it special. Taxes were equal to food, and the margin between sufficiency and starvation were razor thin. Rebellion was in many cases an act of self defense, and an armed community was more likely to keep their share of the harvest when the poo poo hit the fan.  Situation mid 1850's Which it does in 1854. The Taiping have cut off the river communication, disrupting the lumber trade which was one of Guizhou's few export industries. Subsidies from other provinces gradually disappear as funds are desperately needed elsewhere. Amid the worsening economic crisis, it is inevitable that violent incidents begin to appear. This time, the empire manages to bungle things in the worst possible way. While the pattern of worsening violence and local insurrections is common throughout the empire, the unique conditions of Guizhou will turn the sparks into fire. Firstly, the poverty of Guizhou meant that the scholar-gentry class, the unofficial backbone of imperial control, is both less numerous and less powerful than in other provinces. Secondly, the Miao and other minority groups are often lead by hereditary chiefs or tusi, not scholar officials. While they serve a similar role, they have not been thoroughly indoctrinated with Confucianism in the course of studying for exams. Thirdly, the margin of subsistence in Guizhou is so meager that it is essentially impossible to pay for troops and militia locally without overtaxing the people and creating the very rebellions the militia is intended to solve. Lastly, any competent officials or military commanders are being reassigned east to fend off the much more pressing threat of the Taiping. So whereas elsewhere local militias quite effectively mobilize to maintain a semblance of order with pockets of rebellion, Guizhou quickly becomes a mess of widespread rebellion everywhere outside of pockets of order at the provincial capital of Guiyang and a few other key cities. The Miao Rebellion is not a single rebellion with a single commander, but rather rolling waves of unrest in different part sof the province, with dozens of different groups appearing and disappearing during the course of the insurgency. There are two major types of rebel groups- the ethnic minorities, Miao foremost among them. These typically rebel en masse as a community, with only limited cooperation with each other and warchiefs commanding multiple geographically separated groups are only appointed temporarily and reluctantly, with most chieftains maintaining as much of their own authority as possible. Second are various Han groups, often organized via religious sects. These sects provided a structure by which rebellions could be clandestinely organized, but the rank and file remained motivated by taxes and corruption.There are instances of multi ethnic organizations, but by and large the two categories of rebel remained separate. Nevertheless, Han and minority groups eagerly cooperated with each other as circumstances dictated. While internecine fighting among rebels did happen, it was by far the exception and not the rule. The poorest classes, Miao and Han alike, all hated their Qing overlords far more than the court ever imagined. The Wrath of the Wizards The first real rebellion in 1854 will be put down quckly, but serves as the first tremor of the earthquake to come. Yang Yuanbao(楊元保), member of the Bouyei minority and follower of the religious leader Shu Caifeng (舒裁縫), joined forces with bandits and led a few thousand peasants in revolt, following his father's death in prison for tax evasion. Shu Caifeng, who could make flags spontaneously wave themselves and owned a rock that could glow in the dark, would influence many to rebellion. Han Chao (韓超), a capable local official, led the fight with a scrupulously disciplined militia and succesfully beat and dispersed the rebels. The imperial regulars, though, did the usual terrorize the populace business, no doubt laying the seeds of future rebellion. The next wave of unrest will dwarf Yang Yuanbao. Yang Longxi, convinced by Shu Caifeng's demonstration of magic powers, believes the old wizard when he is told that his physiognomy marks him for military greatness. He had worked as a yamen runner, until his refusal to participate in the tax collector's extortion cost him his job. Spending more time with the the Buddhist influenced religion of Shu Caifeng may have influenced Yang, but his followers in the eventual revolt will be largely motivated by taxes and corruption. In September of 1854, they seize control of the town of Tongzi(桐梓), empty the jail, and toss the magistrate out of town butt naked. Yang proceeds with the usual trappings of rebellion, declaring that the Ming are restored and a new reign begun (he also claims some nebulous authority received from "the Hubei rebels", the Taiping, but this is certainly made up.) This is all mixed in with Shu Caifeng's belief in a returned hidden Buddha come to end the Qing. This is all quite weird, but you pretty much have to claim the mandate of heaven and imperial authority if you rebel in China- it's part of the cultural script and its what distinguishes you from bandits. The Ming themselves had started off enmeshed in weird esoteric religion, after all, so lets just roll with it. The government is caught flat footed and Yang takes several more towns before forces can be scraped together to deal with him. The tens of thousands of Green Standard troops that exist on paper prove quite useless in reality, either deserting, dying of disease, or never existing in the first place. Those that remain will gradually get folded into militia organizations as the rebellion continues. Han Chao's thousand man militia will again spearhead the government effort, assisted by whatever forces are available from throughout the province. They succeed in retaking Tongzi, but doing so weakens imperial defenses elsewhere in the province. these leads to several other minor rebellions breaking out, led by Buddhist preachers, Daoist martial artists, and even some lower degree holders. Some of these forces join Yang as he tries to evade imperial pursuit, others operate independently. He is eventually run to ground and killed, as well as the wizard Shu Caifeng, but not before his force traces an almost complete loop around Guizhou, demonstrating for all to see the weakness of the imperial government, as well as the corruption and brutality of the imperial forces pursuing him. For the many disaffected peoples of Guizhou, it becomes clear that there may never be a better time to rebel.  Yang Longxi's counterclockwise route Among the forces conscripted to fight Yang were many Miao. They did not forget their military training and experience upon demobilization and return to their increasingly anxious communities. With the situation already on edge, it would have taken a steady diplomatic hand to keep the province together. None seems to have been available. Now that the river lumber trade, their only source of silver, was interrupted by the Taiping Rebellion, Miao communities petitioned for tax relief. A magistrate denied their request and demanded full payment, threatening a military response if they did not comply. Several thousand Miao stormed the city of Taigong (台拱) and demanded both tax relief and the return of stolen land. Han Chao was dispatched with a force from the capital, but by the time it arrived the Miao had returned to their fortified stockades. Gao He (高禾) and Jiu Song (九松), leaders of the initial tax protest, will serve as leaders for the Miao throughout much of the rebellion, sometimes being described as kings. The overall rebellion, however, will remain largely decentralized and Gao and Jiu, while widely respected, would have relatively little power or ability to command and organize the forces of other Miao leaders. Sparks a Poppin Perhaps at this point a peaceful resolution was still possible. The Miao refusal to pay taxes was entirely reasonable, and a gentle approach may have soothed tensions. Unfortunately for Han Chao's efforts, the local Chinese gentry instead decided to organize an expedition with the avowed goal of exterminating the Miao. It is interesting to see such vehement rhetoric, and it suggests a major divide within the Han Chinese community, between wealthier recent arrivals with ties to China proper, and the poorer classes who would turn out to have a surprising amount of solidarity with their Miao neighbors. The small force gets their asses kicked shortly after entering Miao territory, but the story spreads far and wide and successfully convinces many Miao that they must choose between rebellion or death. The first major rebellion among the Miao is led by Luo Guangming (羅光明), a "raw" Miao who nevertheless seems to have had numerous contacts in Han Chinese society through various religious sects, including the "Sparks from the Lamp" (燈花教) sect. (This religion was based around some kind of Buddha lamp made out of rice which emitted crazy sparks and flames upon the ignition of a mysterious concoction. Dudes would hang out in a small smoky tent and watch this thing, reporting seeing all sorts of incredible stuff in the sparks. So yeah, they were completely high as hell and worshipped a bong.) In 1855, Luo seizes the town of Dujiang (都江) with the cooperation of a Chinese collaborator on the inside. From there, multiple bands under Luo and his brother seized other towns, including a particularly brutal capture of Bazhai (八寨), a town which would stay in rebel hands for well over a decade. By year's end, towns throughout the southeast were either in rebel hands or under siege, and the traditional routes of communication with central China severed. To make things worse, other minority groups such as the Bouyei (布依) and the Shui (水) and the Dong (侗) begin revolting, as they will do intermittently for the next decade.  Sparks from the Lamp reenactor Rebellion was not limited to minorities. The town of Tongren (銅人) in the northeast next plays host to the Red Signals rebellion. This is notable for the involvement of several minor degree holders. These men had successfully led a protest a year earlier in which peasants had insisted on paying their taxes in grain as opposed to silver, as inflation and corruption had made the taxes denominated in silver especially onerous. The next year, however, their movement was co-opted by more radical elements, and protest turned to outright rebellion. The mob which last year had dumped their grain at the prefectural yamen now produced weapons and seized control of Tongren. From there, rebels fanned out in all directions, attracting new recruits both Han and Miao until their forces numbered over 10,000. They seized at least a dozen towns and even pushed into Hunan and Sichuan. This would prove their undoing, as a Hunanese army was dispatched to expel them and followed them into Guizhou, reconquering the lost territory. Once this mission was completed, though, these forces returned back to Hunan, leaving Guizhou once again to its own devices. Guizhou's devices were not impressive. Desperately in need of assistance from other provinces, requests for help (transmitted through Sichuan as the roads to the east were blocked) received the occasional directive for other governors to provide funds. No exact sums were specified, however, and with the threat of the Taiping dwarfing that of the Guizhou rebels, very little was actually sent. Troops from Yunnan did assist in keeping at least the provincial capital of Guiyang safe in 1856, even as rebellion spread throughout the province. The latest outbreak occurred when a large militia unit, which had been established in Duyun (都勻) when the Miao began revolting, turned out to be led by a member of the Sparks from the Lamp. The entire force went rogue and began coordinating with other revolts by religious sects and Miao groups.  it gets worse The government response to this rising tide of disorder was muddled. Prestige took precedence over strategy and the provincial military insisted on taking back any county seat lost as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, this meant extraordinarily expensive campaigns in which the final prize was a burnt and looted city with its walls torn down, impossible to defend once the imperial troops were recalled to deal with a fallen city elsewhere. This whac-a-mole response did little but inflict misery on the populace wherever imperial troops marched, and wherever the provincial administration tried to raise funds to pay them (and the militia needs to be paid on time, or else they would likely turn bandit or rebel themselves). Buying off rebel groups to turn them into militia worked sometimes, but such forces would typically return to banditry or rebellion before long. After only a few years of war, cannibalism was already becoming a familiar sight in Guizhou, and throughout the province the choices for poor communities became banditry, rebellion, or starvation. In early 1857 Xiaoshun (孝順), the provincial commander in chief, does the only thing he reasonably can. He kills himself. Next on deck: Panthay rebellion part 1 Miao Rebellion part 2 Panthay Rebellion part 2 Update on the Nian That should get everywhere caught up to around 1860, and then I can move on to the big important stuff at Shanghai and Anjing. Sorry for the long delays between updates. I started learning Chinese and that's been eating up a lot of the spare time I used to spend on this.
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Jan 3, 2016 23:21
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Cythereal posted:Could be worse. My paternal grandpa said he enlisted in the Navy the day after Pearl Harbor to fight the Japanese, and instead his war experience consisted of tropical hookers and booze in a variety of Caribbean and South American ports. He wasn't complaining, but it wasn't what he signed up for. This is my grandparient's story as well. My paternal grandfather was trained as a pilot, but a car accident during training damaged his vision enough that he was no longer fit for combat. He spent the rest of the war training pilots. You might think this a sweet job, but my grandfather really didn't like to talk about it, and let his pilot's license lapse. Being a trainer for pilots is a great way to make a bunch of friends who go off and get killed fighting the Germans, so I think his memories of that time are rather sad. My maternal grandfather was an essential war worker - a forester/builder.
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Jan 3, 2016 23:34
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I've got to side 1 of ABBA: The Album (not to be confused with ABBA's album ABBA) 100 Years Ago Correspondents, fall in! With no developments for today, let's do a full round of all the people we're following about the war, which is in no way a cunning excuse to draw up a proper list of who they actually are and give proper backstories for anyone who didn't get one when we joined them in mid-flow. In no way. We start of course with some bloviating about how interesting and great Louis Barthas is, before moving on to the sad tale of Private Babou's leg. Then it's to Robert Palmer in Mesopotamia, whose own leg injury is now completely healed, and he's advancing up-river towards Kut. Palmer, meanwhile, has no thoughts at all of the war; he's spent the day having (I poo poo ye not) a lovely partridge shoot. There's also reintroductions for Bernard Adams, Flora Sandes, some twerp called Tolkien, Grigoris Balakian, and Herbert Sulzbach (I lost his book for a while, I've just found it again, but don't worry, literally nothing has happened to him since the the French put up a comedy sign in mid-October).
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Jan 3, 2016 23:55
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I wish I'd had a chance to talk to my grandfather about his WW2 service - unfortunately he died when I was 6 - but we know the basic details. He was in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve (the 'wavy navy'), he was a keen sailor in civilian life before the war and had actually joined the RNVR in the late '30s before being called up just before the declaration of war. He and one his best friends from school and the sailing club went through six weeks of training at HMS King Alfred (the RNVR school establishment) together and passed out as Sub-Lieutenants on the same day. His friend was posted to the HMS Rawalpindi and was killed eight weeks later. My grandfather was posted to corvettes based on the east coast (so escorting Arctic convoys from the UK to Iceland and back) and apparently all he ever said was that it was the most boring two-and-a-half years of his life, just chugging up and down the North Sea. He became a navigation specialist after a bit but later was promoted to Lieutenant, seconded to some Admiralty research department and put to work developing special hull paints (he was an industrial chemist in civvy life) which he, apparently, felt was much more worthwhile to the war effort than his sea service.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:15
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Oh awesome, P-Mack is back. Always happy to read about the latest big trouble in 19th century China.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:35
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My paternal grandfather was a corpsman with the US Navy in Italy during WWII. He never talked about it unless to say his favorite thing was giving flyers medical shots in the rear end.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:40
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It's incredible depressing reading that one thing that's always in the Actions in Progress part in Trin's blog.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:54
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Nebakenezzer posted:This is my grandparient's story as well. My paternal grandfather was trained as a pilot, but a car accident during training damaged his vision enough that he was no longer fit for combat. He spent the rest of the war training pilots. You might think this a sweet job, but my grandfather really didn't like to talk about it, and let his pilot's license lapse. Being a trainer for pilots is a great way to make a bunch of friends who go off and get killed fighting the Germans, so I think his memories of that time are rather sad. My maternal grandfather was an essential war worker - a forester/builder. Neither of my grandfathers have expressed any regret about never seeing combat during the war. My paternal grandfather who has since passed away just said the Navy needed ships patrolling Brazil and the Caribbean in case any u-boats got adventurous, ships need people, and he went where the Navy told him. My maternal grandfather worked in an Army law office in the states, so he came away with a very cynical view of life on the front lines.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:55
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Cythereal posted:My paternal grandfather who has since passed away just said the Navy needed ships patrolling Brazil and the Caribbean in case any u-boats got adventurous, ships need people, and he went where the Navy told him. (my mother's father was too young for ww2) HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 01:00
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