FATAL & Friends 2014-15: The Neverending Storygame

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Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Doresh posted:

I think I'll stick with Magical Burst. I don't need crossovers between magical girls and scat-crazy furry dudes.

And please tell me Hunter has Giant Robots. That would be amazing.

I'm sure TSV or Cherion has something in the works like that

# ? Apr 8, 2015 20:51

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# ? Dec 10, 2024 11:48

RocknRollaAyatollah: Nov 26, 2008; Lipstick Apathy

Kurieg posted:

My favorite bit of BJ Zanzibar stupidity were the were-squirrels that were stronger than the Garou in every conceivable way.

Are they just were-foxes that exist everywhere then?

Were-foxes could learn any changing breed or tribal/whatever gift or rite. They also had access to broken origami magic and were the only changing breed to survive the apocalypse. Not in the sense that they're written as surviving in the Apocalypse book but in the Hengeyokai book they're guaranteed to be the only changing breed to make it to the next age. Their metis were also perfect beings and super rare/special. They are problem World of Darkness character incarnate.

# ? Apr 8, 2015 20:57

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Xelkelvos posted:

I'm sure TSV or Cherion has something in the works like that

Not as written, sadly. TFV does have powered armor, but it's relatively down to earth. Cheiron is all cutting useful bits out of supernaturals and jamming them into their agents' bodies.

# ? Apr 8, 2015 21:01

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

RocknRollaAyatollah posted:

Are they just were-foxes that exist everywhere then?

Were-foxes could learn any changing breed or tribal/whatever gift or rite. They also had access to broken origami magic and were the only changing breed to survive the apocalypse. Not in the sense that they're written as surviving in the Apocalypse book but in the Hengeyokai book they're guaranteed to be the only changing breed to make it to the next age. Their metis were also perfect beings and super rare/special. They are problem World of Darkness character incarnate.

The Were-foxes got reigned in mechanically in Revised and W20, they no longer have access to sorcery, they can theoretically learn any gift but it costs the normal out-of-clan cost and they have to find a changing breed teacher for it, which should be difficult. Ju Fus are less powerful as well, they're basically just general gifts that have a material component of "paper" and you can't prepare a bunch of them ahead of time anymore. Fluffwise they did the best they could considering the source material. They'll still be freed from their burden "eventually" but that's a very long eventually, and they're only guaranteed to survive to the sixth age provided there is a sixth age. The problem is that Hengeyokai was a very bad book, the kitsune themselves removed from that aren't bad.

as far as the were-squirrels, no. They had something like +5 str +3 dex +4 sta in their war form and had access to Ahroun gifts regardless of their auspice.

# ? Apr 8, 2015 21:14

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Gonna play as a Were-fox Scorpion Clan Shugenja at my next absolutely horrible game night.

# ? Apr 8, 2015 21:17

That Old Tree: Jun 23, 2012; nah

Halloween Jack posted:

Y'know, I think we read the same Scanners supplement from BJ Zanzibar, and you're right. It was silly to single out that one when it was one of the ones that actually just stuck to the source material.

There have been so many Highlander fan-supplements (for WoD and other systems) that I can't keep track. Some guy on RPGnet did one for nWoD and actually got a cease-and-desist for it, but I have a copy

One of the reasons it got shut down is because it looked really professional, thanks to MrGone doing the layout. I played in a game of it, and it was pretty good as far as that kind of thing goes. I think it was only 80ish pages, a drat sight better than Genius.

# ? Apr 8, 2015 21:20

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Xelkelvos posted:

Princess is magical girls in WoD. You are correct. Thanks to Madoka Magica they even have a source of horror that appends the previous one.

As for sentai and Kamen Rider, Hunter does that well enough actually. The only reason to make them their own splat is to give mechanical weight to done of their qualities

Uuuuugh, Princess.

# ? Apr 8, 2015 21:42

Simian_Prime: Nov 6, 2011; When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

The Staunten Catalyst sounds like fishmalks crossed with that annoying guy on your FB who posts every link from Ifuckinglovescience.

# ? Apr 8, 2015 23:03

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Genius: The Transgression: Wondrous Aesthetics

The book doesn't discuss this until a long way into the book, but the next section is Foundations, which talks about aesthetics common to the Foundations, so I'll go over this now.

Wonders can look like drat-near anything depending on a genius' tastes, insanity, and their individual model of how the world "works." In game terms, there's not much difference between a home-built tesla tank, a cyborg dinosaur, or a steam-powered walker. Most geniuses therefore adopt a particular style to their work and their constructions, which can be useful to think about during character creation. Do you like steampunk? Cyberpunk? Enjoy building your wonders out of scraps and garbage? Prefer a more biological look? Most geniuses tend to pick one and stick with it.

While it's purely fluff and RP for most geniuses, aesthetics matter more to Unmada - those Inspired so insane that they think they're the sane ones.

Genius posted:

To an unmada, an aesthetic is even more important. It is a picture of their philosophy, of what they think is
true. A medical Etherite who rejects the vulgar fallacies of modern genetic science simply cannot build a
wonder that resembles a modern genetic research lab: if he tried, his Inspiration would leave him.

Mechanically, attempts by an unmada to "disguise" a wonder, to make it resemble someone else's aesthetic or
a different aesthetic entirely, incurs a -1 penalty in the building phase. If the aesthetic fundamentally violates
the genius' approach to Inspiration or wonder-working, the penalty becomes -5 and building the wonder also
requires a dot of Willpower.

Geniuses are welcome to select one of the aesthetics below or to create their own. Some geniuses combine
different styles, while others try to stick with functional creations, and others still are defined more by their
"medium"―something like "sonics" or "mirrors"―than by a formal aesthetic.

I'm simply going to present the game's suggested aesthetics as written.

Genius posted:

Alembic:

Sometimes called Technomancer, this aesthetic replaces the normal trappings of science and technology with
a "magical" look, ranging from traditional alchemical laboratories (hence the term) to glowing "runes of
power." The latter was considered half-baked before it premiered by many older geniuses, though the
traditional "dirty mortar and pestle" look is popular with some Progenitors and Scholastics. Geniuses with a
specific cultural or ethnic identity or a specific interest in ancient cultures focus on specific Alembic styles,
such as Egyptian or ancient Chinese. It is also the most common Oracle aesthetic, alongside Crystal Future.
Some geniuses who favor this style sincerely believe in the unity of science and "magic" (however they define
it); others are playing around with semiotics and what it means to be a wonder-worker.

Black Plastic:

A modern organic style that came about around the same time as Digital Chrome, Black Plastic encourages an
organic look to its technology (even the non-organic stuff), usually casting everything in asymmetric black
rubber that is designed to unsettle viewers. Black Plastic is a perennial favorite, with its popularity oscillating
but remaining fairly constant in the Peerage. Progenitors are very fond of this aesthetic; they often
incorporate insect motifs into their creations. A combination of Black Plastic and Trash Praxis has recently
become popular; its most common nickname is Crawling Rusty Meat.

Brutalist:

An outgrowth of the Functionalist anti-movement of the 70s, which basically said "Stop dressing up your
loving wonders and just make sure they work," the Brutalist doctrine goes one step further, encouraging a
deliberately functional and inelegant look. Wonders in this school are made from pre-fab parts, if possible,
because that's cheaper, or unpainted (or camouflage) custom parts if necessary. Components look strippeddown,
ugly, and exposed. The Brutalist style is popular with Navigators and some Mechanists, and with many
militaristic and survivalist geniuses. Exposed metal and clashing combinations of alloys and polymers are
common in this style.

Clockwork:

One of the oldest aesthetics that is self-consciously an aesthetic, clockwork is exactly like it sounds: geniuses
who adhere to this style favor mechanical devices if at all possible, using springs and muscles for power and
intricate assemblages of gears for moving parts. For Axioms where this maxim might seem inapplicable, such
as Apokalypsi, Inspired employ clever mirrors and prisms. This aesthetic is of course most popular with
Mechanists, though it is also popular with many older and more traditional Inspired. An older variant, called
Baroque, mixes Clockwork with rococo fashions; it is little-practiced today.

Crystal Future:

"Crystal Future" refers to the images of the future or of "lost" but advanced civilizations popular from the
19th century well into the mid or late 20th. In this Utopian vision, the streets are clean, machinery is powered
by crystals or other nebulous sources, and everyone wears togas and seems very calm all the time. Its
practitioners are an equal mix of sincere devotees and snickering parodists. This aesthetic is still popular in
Lemuria, especially among Oracles, as well as certain Etherites and those Mechanists focused on Apokalypsi
or Katastrofi. Among the Peerage, this aesthetic has a faintly sinister reputation, despite its squeaky-clean
appearance, as many of Lemuria's Secret Masters maintained this style before they were wiped out.

Extropic:

The current "far future" style, with the hard edge of reality coupled with the optimistic vision of a transhuman
future, is termed Extropic. In this aesthetic, the genius focuses on advanced speculative science such as
nanotechnology, gene-line body alteration, and digital consciousness. Extropy is as much a philosophy as an
aesthetic, and the actual appearance of wonders varies, though effort is put into making technology appear
elegant, unobtrusive, and functional. But the core of the Extropic aesthetic is not the appearance, but an
approach to technology that focuses on cutting-edge research and the blurring of the concept of "human."

Macedon:

Another perennial aesthetic, dating back at least to 15th century Italians imagining what Aristotle's wonders
might have looked like, Macedon sees surges in popularity every few decades. The current return to the
spotlight is probably the fault of "Greek-punk" movies and video games, just as the previous jump began
during Hollywood's Golden Age of sword-and-sandal flicks. The Macedon aesthetic uses as its starting-point
the steam-powered machines of Hero of Alexandria. Stylistic elements include the use of bronze instead of
more advanced metals, Hellenic friezes, and intricate mirrors to engage in long-distance communication and
attack. Variant styles, based on the ancient bronze-steam-and-glass wonders of Persia, Egypt, and India have
also seen intermittent popularity; these styles are distinguished from their Alembic equivalents by being
more explicitly technological, often sporting exposed Antikythera-style clockwork.

Digital Chrome:

"Cyberpunk" stylings are called Digital Chrome by mad scientists. Typical affectations include heavy chrome
or plastic cybernetics, thick plugs bolted into flesh, and chunky, bulky communication devices, coupled with
bright colors, neon, and vinyl. Digital Chrome was the look back in the 80s, though it has since declined in
popularity. It now sits between modern and properly retro, and has few new adherents, though geniuses who
catalyzed in the midst of that era (now in middle age) still sport the look. The colonization of the Grid may see
a resurrection of the style.

Oscilloscope:

A popular style during the "golden age of science fiction" and a little bit beyond―from the late 40s to the late
70s―"Oscilloscope" was the first aesthetic that actually received a name, rather than "that style that the
geniuses in California are into now" or whatever. Oscilloscope style focuses on plastic, aluminum, chrome,
atomic power, jets, and radio technology. Expect big computers, angular machinery in that off-beige "old PC"
color, and track suits. It is deeply uncool among modern geniuses, and practically marks one as an Atomist, for
whom the Jet Age and Space Age dreams have yet to die. A few young geniuses have begun wearing this style
ironically, or mixing it with Extropic, but the Oscilloscope aesthetic is still associated with earlier generations.

Home Grown:

While this aesthetic got its start among underwater-themed geniuses, it has spread onto land with the rise of
modern biotechnology. The Home Grown look features organic components, subtle curves, and
bioluminescent illumination, giving it a warmer and more humane appearance than Black Plastic. It is popular
among ecologically-minded geniuses in the Peerage as well as some Oracles, and is well-regarded among
geniuses for whom the biological sciences are of primary interest. Experiments with overlapping Home
Grown and Alembic led to a short-lived fad that is now referred to (contemptuously) as Fairy Princess.

Pod People:

This term was originally an insult, though many of its practitioners have co-opted the term as their own. Pod
People aesthetic includes a sleek, refined look, usually in all-white or some other solid color, with rounded
edges, a "finished" appearance (in contrast to the rough appearance of many wonders), and a user-friendly
interface with as few buttons, gadgets, and doo-dads as possible. (A one-panel comic in Alloy Blend shows the
standard Pod People ray gun: a smooth-cornered hand-held white rectangle with a single black button
labeled "Kill.") This aesthetic also favors small, elegant devices, and practitioners often try to make handheld
wonders as small and unobtrusive as possible. Pod People aesthetic is sometimes held in low regard,
especially by Steampunks and Functionals; its adherents are thought to spend too much time polishing their
devices to look pretty, and not enough time working out the bugs. The style is most popular among Directors
and some Progenitors; it is extremely rare in Lemuria.

Ray Gun:

The most common term for the "retro-future" look that dominated mad science (and some sane science) from
the 1930s to the 1950s. Common elements of Ray Gun styling include fins and "fiddly bits" on Skafoi devices,
Jacob's ladders, big cylindrical robots, and a focus on electricity and chemistry. (Chrome and atomic power
are generally considered late Ray Gun or Oscilloscope) Ray gun fashions are, of course, huge among Etherites,
though it also has many adherents among Directors, who favor the classic image of power and confidence it
provides. Googie is a sort of West Coast "beachfront" ray gun style in pastel colors and eye-assaulting fonts;
Raygun Gothic mixes the classic Ray Gun look with baroque spires and exposed metal.

Steampunk:

If Oscilloscope is not quite retro and Digital Chrome is just past its sell-by date, Steampunk is the current too-cool-for-school
"big thing." All the kids are doing it: brass goggles, clanking mechanical servants, radium guns,
and rivet-covered work uniforms are currently all the rage among the postgrads. (The Martian Empire is
confused, but happy, that they are now "totally hip"). Steampunk is deliberately retro and it reflects a past
that never was: even the geniuses who lived in the Victorian era dressed practically or in traditional fashion,
rather than the "brass rivet" look, and many wonders from that era actually affected a Baroque look (which
was, in its own time, deliberately retro and reflecting a 17th century aesthetic that also never existed).
Steampunk aesthetic is popular in the Peerage, particular among Scholastics. In Lemuria, it has begun to
eclipse Ray Gun styles for Etherites.

Trash Praxis:

First appearing in the 80s, Trash Praxis (named after the now-defunct magazine of the same name) is the
name for a style based on scavenging whatever one can in order to build one's wonders. Trash Praxis is
popular among geniuses in impoverished nations (though they aren't making a drat fashion statement) and
with the poor, the disaffected, and the self-styled punks of the modern world. The Dumpster Diver Merit is
nearly a prerequisite for this aesthetic. It is rare in Lemuria, but many Artificers and no-nonsense Navigators
like the brutal effect of a wonder built out of trash and discarded normal machinery.

Universal:

Named for the movie studio, not any sense of universal style, this aesthetic dates from an era before geniuses
thought much about "aesthetics" and just used what was at hand. In fact, it was nearly the last such style
before the 20th century ushered in a new sort of self-awareness among the Inspired. Resembling
Frankenstein's laboratory from the movies (hence the name), this bubbling, crackling, cluttered look was
common in the 19th and early 20th centuries, especially among remote geniuses who were forced to use and
re-use specimens. An elegant aesthetic for a more civilized age, Universal has mostly been usurped by
Steampunk, Alembic, and other deliberately "retro" stylings on one side, and more modern functional
aesthetics like Oscilloscope or Brutalist on the other. Nonetheless, it was so common in Europe and America
for so long that old labs (some labs have been in continuous use for centuries) still feature the stitched
homunculi, sizzling Jacob's ladders, and stained beakers that came to symbolize "mad science" in the minds of
a century of movie-goers.

Next: Foundations and the International Union of Artifice

# ? Apr 9, 2015 00:02

Otherkinsey Scale: Jul 17, 2012; Just a little bit of sunshine!

quote:

Geniuses with a specific cultural or ethnic identity

Wow.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:11

Young Freud: Nov 25, 2006

Evil Mastermind posted:

The storm has a name... - Let's Read TORG

Sanjuro Shintaro, a.k.a. The Hunchback sells cyberdecks and information to hackers. What nobody knows is that he's also an operative for the Kanawa Corporation. He's set up an extensive network of contacts throughout The Catacombs, so he's a go-to guy for intel.

Here's a big hint. If they're an NPC with a Japanese name, they are most likely an operative of Kanawa in some fashion.

Fake edit: this is way before I read that we're going to do Nippon Tech.

I'll go out and say this but, if whoever holds the rights gets off their asses and does the remake, I'd either would like a culture-neutral version of Nippon Tech or have the whole cosm removed, as it seems like it's Tech Axiom 24 stuff is now largely outdated by our own technological improvements.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:31

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

I've always felt the best way to "fix" Nippon Tech is to remove the ninja and samurai stuff, keep the corporate culture stuff, up the tech, and have the street-level stuff be like a John Woo movie or Sleeping Dogs.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:41

Young Freud: Nov 25, 2006

Evil Mastermind posted:

I've always felt the best way to "fix" Nippon Tech is to remove the ninja and samurai stuff, keep the corporate culture stuff, up the tech, and have the street-level stuff be like a John Woo movie or Sleeping Dogs.

I played around with making them "the Consortium" and having them appear everywhere during the Possibility Wars, but they come from a mirror cosm where Randian free-market captialist logic actually works. I'd even keep Kanawa, but limit the whole planet ChinaKoreaJapan. Uping the tech to Tech 25 would also be helpful, being more a border between having one-off custom prosthetic limbs like in a James Bond or an hi-tech espionage novel and Cyberpapacy/Tharkold cybernanotech where it's everywhere.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 03:55

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

See, I legitimately like the hyper-capitalism-run-amok stuff, or how the home culture has evolved into an utterly dehumanizing world. To me, that feels like the reality of someone who's reached a level of greed that he is effectively stripmining the multiverse for profit. That's just me, though. I think I'm the only person who really likes the realm.

The thing is, though, that the nature of Nippon Tech makes it easy to tweak to your liking. It's not so much a place you go to do things like, say, the Nile Empire or Orrorsh are. Where it excels is in being a general-purpose foil. At any point there can be a Kanawa operative pulling the strings, or funding a bad guy, or whatever. Nippon Tech works best as connective tissue or a driving force in an adventure rather than the focal point.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:09

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

I don't especially like it because, even more than anywhere else in Torg, it seems to have no ability to "win." I mean, the entire game is set up to keep you from winning against the High Lords, but it seems to believe it's possible, and it certainly wants you to believe it's possible.

But there's nowhere to start here. The High Lord is a symptom - you take him out, there's plenty of faceless greed-driven executives who could step into his shoes without even appearing to change.

So...why should I, the player, want to interact with them?

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:28

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Mors Rattus posted:

So...why should I, the player, want to interact with them?

What, isn't the universe we've created so compelling that you just enjoy exploring and playing with it without being able to affect its wonderfully crafted storyline? No? Uh, um, are you sure? That's, uh, kind of how this is supposed to work. Do you want to try the novels? Please try the novels, you'll understand if you- you already did? Uh...gently caress.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:35

That Old Tree: Jun 23, 2012; nah

Not an F&F, but it came up a week or two ago and then I was cleaning out my mom's basement and�

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:38

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Mors Rattus posted:

I don't especially like it because, even more than anywhere else in Torg, it seems to have no ability to "win." I mean, the entire game is set up to keep you from winning against the High Lords, but it seems to believe it's possible, and it certainly wants you to believe it's possible.

But there's nowhere to start here. The High Lord is a symptom - you take him out, there's plenty of faceless greed-driven executives who could step into his shoes without even appearing to change.

So...why should I, the player, want to interact with them?

Yeah, Nippon Tech seems to suffer from being an interesting cosm (I like the detail that the invasion that brought it to Earth was subtle enough that it wasn't until years later people even realized it had happened), barring the goofier Japanophiliac elements, but one without much in the way of engaging hooks or reasons for PCs to want to go do stuff there. You can say "well they make good antagonists and can be the puppetmaster behind X, Y, or Z" but the problem is that Torg is, or at least wants to be, a game that's all about going to different places which are also different genres. Even if you changed Nippon Tech to "Sleeping Dogs: the Cosm" why would you bother going there?

I mean to be fair you could say the same about a lot of places in Torg because Torg, as actually realized, isn't a very good game, but this is sort of the same issue I had with the 2056 Architects of the Flesh juncture in Feng Shui, a game of time travelling high explosive wahoo action, except that the Buro had basically turned the future into as boring and drab and grey a totalitarian dystopia as possible so that even if a few of the ideas in there would have been neat if they were spun out into a game that could more fully explore them the fact is that there's no compelling reason to want to go have crazy adventures in the future juncture.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:46

The Lone Badger: Sep 24, 2007

Kai Tave posted:

. Even if you changed Nippon Tech to "Sleeping Dogs: the Cosm" why would you bother going there?

Because you need 800kg of semtex to foil M�bius' plans and where else are you going to get that on short notice?

(Insert 'vital indication', 'medical care', 'hired ninjas' etc as appropriate.)

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:54

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

If the only purpose an entire universe has is 'the Acme Corporation Everything Mart' it is being used very poorly.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 04:57

PurpleXVI: Oct 30, 2011; Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Plague of Hats posted:

Not an F&F, but it came up a week or two ago and then I was cleaning out my mom's basement and�

Oh hey, is that some Dragon Dice stuff? We really could use a review of that at some point, because I wanna know if there was something good there.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 05:09

Omnicrom: Aug 3, 2007; Snorlax Afficionado

Mors Rattus posted:

I don't especially like it because, even more than anywhere else in Torg, it seems to have no ability to "win." I mean, the entire game is set up to keep you from winning against the High Lords, but it seems to believe it's possible, and it certainly wants you to believe it's possible.

But there's nowhere to start here. The High Lord is a symptom - you take him out, there's plenty of faceless greed-driven executives who could step into his shoes without even appearing to change.

So...why should I, the player, want to interact with them?

The "You Can't Win" thing that Torg wallows in is the reason why I've never really been all that excited for the setting. I get why there are people who are really enthused by places like places like the Cyberpapacy, but Torg is so far up its rear end with metaplot that the settings have railroads fused horribly into them. West End Games absolutely don't want you to win, it's their world you're playing in and don't you forget it, this is their story and not yours so buckle in and have yourself a steaming helping of metaplot. Malraux? Mobius? 3327? They have metaplot a plenty ahead of them so take your filthy player hands off of them.

From where I'm sitting the metaplot poison is in too deep when it comes to Torg, to salvage it you'd probably have to do some serious bleeding on the setting level.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 05:57

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

The problem with "use Nippon Tech as a place to get rad supplies," aside from it being kind of a one-note reason to keep a whole parasitic genre-cosm around, is that Torg goes out of its way to discourage taking poo poo from one cosm into another, so all your rad Nippon Tech computers and guns turn to dirt as soon as you go to the Living Land or whatever.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 06:08

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Omnicrom posted:

The "You Can't Win" thing that Torg wallows in is the reason why I've never really been all that excited for the setting. I get why there are people who are really enthused by places like places like the Cyberpapacy, but Torg is so far up its rear end with metaplot that the settings have railroads fused horribly into them. West End Games absolutely don't want you to win, it's their world you're playing in and don't you forget it, this is their story and not yours so buckle in and have yourself a steaming helping of metaplot. Malraux? Mobius? 3327? They have metaplot a plenty ahead of them so take your filthy player hands off of them.

From where I'm sitting the metaplot poison is in too deep when it comes to Torg, to salvage it you'd probably have to do some serious bleeding on the setting level.

I'm having exactly the same problem. At least in other metaplot-heavy games like Vampire or settings with an established story like Star Wars, there's plenty of places to explore and poo poo to do away from the metaplot. In Torg, there's basically no escaping the conflict between the High Lords and Earth, but there's no way to affect anything in that conflict! There aren't rules for expanding or destroying the pylons or whatever they are that's imposing the other realities on Earth, the High Lords are loving gods, and the Darkness Devices themselves have infinity plus-one shields and a Death Star laser and NO FAIR I'M TELLING TEACHER!

In a better world, that huge system of axioms would be the predecessor to a system of making your own invading realities for your Storm Knights to drive back, and the Cyberpapacy et. al. would be just suggestions of how the Possibility Wars could look. Torg the Toolkit, what might have been.

Kai Tave posted:

The problem with "use Nippon Tech as a place to get rad supplies," aside from it being kind of a one-note reason to keep a whole parasitic genre-cosm around, is that Torg goes out of its way to discourage taking poo poo from one cosm into another, so all your rad Nippon Tech computers and guns turn to dirt as soon as you go to the Living Land or whatever.

That's another thing. When faced with the sheer impossibility of fighting these realities, the sanest response seems to be to get the gently caress away from them down to Brazil or Australia. Why would you actually want to adventure in these places if all your poo poo breaks when you enter them so you can't do something awesome like evacuate the Dinosaur'd Central Valley while machine gunning lizardmen and feeding Tomahawk missiles to T-Rexes. There's nothing to be gained from it, because you can't drive them back, you can't take most things out of them, and their crazy poo poo can't really come to you (I know there was that adventure about stopping the rotation of the Earth, but I've been on trains less railroaded, so it doesn't count).

(Forgive me if I missed some details here, I haven't been paying very close attention to the Torg reviews before now)

# ? Apr 9, 2015 06:40

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

At least in Feng Shui, in every setting book there's this big section on 'Here are some ways you can gently caress these dudes up, even on their home turf, no matter how powerful we just told you they are.' Heck, there's usually also 'Here are some possible scenarios where these guys lose/win big and how to play as or against them.'

Torg could learn a lot.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 06:43

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

In Feng Shui's case the problem with the Buro juncture was less a case of metaplot-armored NPCs stomping on the PCs' faces forever and more that the Buro juncture was kind of a dull place to visit in general.

Torg's problem is just that it's a game that resists attempts to play it, period. At least from a broad strokes perspective the Cyberpapacy seems like an ideal template to use for an invading cosm...there are several built in resistance factions fighting back, it's implied and outright stated in several instances that the Cyberpope doesn't have a handle on everything and isn't as all powerful as he'd like to be, and it's admittedly a very creative and fun concept. We haven't dug into the details on Nippon Tech yet but so far 3327 or whatever sounds like he's a lot more omnicompetent than the Cyberpope and his cosm doesn't really sound like it has any kind of resistance going on, just profit-minded crime syndicates and stuff.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 06:59

Otherkinsey Scale: Jul 17, 2012; Just a little bit of sunshine!

Kavak posted:

There aren't rules for expanding or destroying the pylons or whatever they are that's imposing the other realities on Earth

If I remember correctly, there are, but if you don't do it just right then everyone within range of them just dies.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 07:04

Zereth: Jul 8, 2003

Kai Tave posted:

In Feng Shui's case the problem with the Buro juncture was less a case of metaplot-armored NPCs stomping on the PCs' faces forever and more that the Buro juncture was kind of a dull place to visit in general.

Which is especially bad since, as the futuremost Juncture, it holds little strategic value in the Secret War, while victories over important sites in past junctures affect all future ones. And I'm not convinced "Mad Max Cyberapeocalypse" is much better there.

Carrasco posted:

If I remember correctly, there are, but if you don't do it just right then everyone within range of them just dies.

You had to inspire people (by doing awesome poo poo, in a specific mechanical manner which may or may not actually be an awesome thing, then brag about it with lots of rolls) as I recall, and the way the Nippon Tech juncture works appears to make that hard to impossible since nobody gives a poo poo about anything except money.

EDIT: Which does seem like it has interesting story potential, in that you need to get 3342's Darkness Device from him, and adjust the world until it's possible for people to care enough about thins to survive the transition except wait they're sapient and malevolent and would not go along with this at all

# ? Apr 9, 2015 07:47

Selachian: Oct 9, 2012

Kai Tave posted:

The problem with "use Nippon Tech as a place to get rad supplies," aside from it being kind of a one-note reason to keep a whole parasitic genre-cosm around, is that Torg goes out of its way to discourage taking poo poo from one cosm into another, so all your rad Nippon Tech computers and guns turn to dirt as soon as you go to the Living Land or whatever.

Plus also, Law of Betrayal. Using Nippon Tech as your supplier is a great way to guarantee you're gonna get backstabbed at some point.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 10:57

RandallODim: Dec 30, 2010; Another 1? Aww man...

The one built-in 'victory' course I see implied in Nippon Tech is causing 3327 to run a loss for a quarter, and as much fun as wrecking Kanawa Corp infrastructure and market share could be, you'd need to set up some final confrontation to avoid the underwhelming ending of "You hosed up his profits, guess the dude kills himself on board orders and his successor pulls out because the invasion isn't working as planned any more". Something like '3327 comes at you in a final bid to redeem himself, while pursued by a corporate kill team, kick his rear end!' might work.

But then the Darkness Device is still a thing, so really just gently caress that whole conceit forever.

Selachian posted:

Plus also, Law of Betrayal. Using Nippon Tech as your supplier is a great way to guarantee you're gonna get backstabbed at some point.

I love the idea of having to always recruit only to 99 members, because you've started noticing that the 100th recruit keeps loving everything up.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 12:03

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

Man, whole lotta Torg discussion while I was asleep. Let me see if I can catch up...

I agree that Torg had an issue with the High Lords in general, because they're set up as untouchable gods you can't take down, but at the same time every single one has a stat block.

Games have done the "these guys are the Super Evil Bad Guys You Can't Beat" and made it work; 13th Age springs to mind. But that's because those games don't make the central conceit "you have to stop these guys".

Torg doesn't seem to know what it wants its central idea to be. Generally speaking everything is presented as the main job of the PCs is to work on a smaller level, thwarting schemes and trying to take back territory. But again: if you're not supposed to have the PCs go and just try to beat up 3327 or whoever, why give him a stat block? When you think about it, half these guys don't even need to be on Core Earth. Mobius is the only one who'd ever really come close to interacting with PCs, and that's just because he likes to do poo poo like create a superhero identity and worm his way into their good graces before tricking them into a deathtrap.

Further complicating things is that Torg is from an era before people really thought about settings and how people would interact with them before play. The idea was that you just presented people with this setting and publish adventures and you were good. At the time that's just how things were done, but nowadays we're used to settings and games that tell us how we're supposed to interact with them. In the 90's, tone hadn't really been invented yet as a Thing in RPGs.

Hell, there's not thing one in the core Torg rulebooks about how to structure a campaign apart from setting up individual adventures. No advice on setting up long-term stuff or the types of campaigns you could run, just "figure out the bad guy, put in a few lead-in fights, done".

I feel like the whole "unbeatable High Lords" thing wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't spend so much time mechanically defining how they couldn't be beaten and then given them stats anyway.

If I ever released "Evil Mastermind's Version of Torg", I'd probably set the High Lords up like Icons in 13th Age; they're not end goals, they're story catalysts. Your campaign isn't about beating them up, it's supposed to be more like an awesome long-term TV series where you might get close, but before you can land the final blow they rocket away shouting "NEXT TIME!" and shaking their fists.

But then again, despite everything I still love the game. It's the F&F hill I will die on.

Kai Tave posted:

The problem with "use Nippon Tech as a place to get rad supplies," aside from it being kind of a one-note reason to keep a whole parasitic genre-cosm around, is that Torg goes out of its way to discourage taking poo poo from one cosm into another, so all your rad Nippon Tech computers and guns turn to dirt as soon as you go to the Living Land or whatever.

Believe it or not, but they actually covered this. The Kanawa Corporation (through subsidiaries) sells weapons of varying tech levels, made using parts and processes that match the tech level. That's why the three equipment books are presented as Kanawa catalogs.

Kavak posted:

That's another thing. When faced with the sheer impossibility of fighting these realities, the sanest response seems to be to get the gently caress away from them down to Brazil or Australia. Why would you actually want to adventure in these places if all your poo poo breaks when you enter them so you can't do something awesome like evacuate the Dinosaur'd Central Valley while machine gunning lizardmen and feeding Tomahawk missiles to T-Rexes. There's nothing to be gained from it, because you can't drive them back, you can't take most things out of them, and their crazy poo poo can't really come to you (I know there was that adventure about stopping the rotation of the Earth, but I've been on trains less railroaded, so it doesn't count).

(Forgive me if I missed some details here, I haven't been paying very close attention to the Torg reviews before now)

Because if left unchecked, the High Lords will either eventually drain all the energy from Earth and achieve godhood, destroying Earth in the process, or do so much colatteral damage fighting each other they'll destroy Core Earth in the process. That's bad. The stakes are global; even if you're in Australia the fact that seven dark gods are fighting for control of the planet means you're going to have to deal with it eventually.

Although that is another problem that I was going to bring up when I get to covering Core Earth: the game line assumes that in the rest of the world it's business as usual. Planes still fly, businesses still operate, Hollywood still cranks out movies. The Cyberpapacy takes over Boston but you can still catch a flight into Logan Airport like it's no big deal.

RandallODim posted:

The one built-in 'victory' course I see implied in Nippon Tech is causing 3327 to run a loss for a quarter, and as much fun as wrecking Kanawa Corp infrastructure and market share could be, you'd need to set up some final confrontation to avoid the underwhelming ending of "You hosed up his profits, guess the dude kills himself on board orders and his successor pulls out because the invasion isn't working as planned any more". Something like '3327 comes at you in a final bid to redeem himself, while pursued by a corporate kill team, kick his rear end!' might work.

There are actually rules for owning your own megacorporation and engaging in corporate warfare in this book. :ssh:

quote:

I love the idea of having to always recruit only to 99 members, because you've started noticing that the 100th recruit keeps loving everything up.

Hard numbers like that are always funny because they end up generating situations like this.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 13:42

wdarkk: Oct 26, 2007; Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Evil Mastermind posted:

Hard numbers like that are always funny because they end up generating situations like this.

I kind of like the idea that people are vaguely aware of this, but haven't really done enough testing to get the exact numbers. So you'd have, say, a crime lord who insists on having exactly 88 subordinates and no more.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 14:36

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

wdarkk posted:

I kind of like the idea that people are vaguely aware of this, but haven't really done enough testing to get the exact numbers. So you'd have, say, a crime lord who insists on having exactly 88 subordinates and no more.

I see what you suggested there.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 14:37

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Even more than the other cosms and High Lords, Nippon Tech gets to me, though. No one is fighting back. Even if you take out 3327, you change nothing and fix nothing. The next guy is exactly the same. To achieve any positive progress at all you have to literally remake the universe's rules even if the Darkness Device were somehow not unstoppable and 3327 were somehow not a god. It is just...why would I ever want to interact with The World's Most Depressing Universe? This isn't a game about exploring the soul-crushing meaninglessness of corporate life - it's a game about being heroes who try and solve the world's problems.

Nippon Tech is completely out of place.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 15:02

Bieeanshee: Aug 21, 2000; Not keen on keening.; Grimey Drawer

I'm wondering how poo poo gets done with that World Law of betrayal in the mix. Granted it isn't going to be bloody corporate war, but with backstabbing being a constant there must be a lot of opportunity to gently caress things up by dropping a whisper in the right ear.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 15:10

Serf: May 5, 2011

If I was to ever run TORG (which I might legitimately try, it looks awesome) I'd do it in Fate and set the High Lords up as Factions like in Atomic Robo. Make them very much face-punchable and let the players go hog wild on taking them down if they want. Big battles to uproot the stelae, driving the High Lords back and eventually even breaking the Darkness Devices. That would actually be a cool campaign idea.

Also do away with the whole "your cool toys turn to rocks in other worlds" thing. You're a Storm Knight, you don't care about lame laws like that. Yeah I'd run that.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 15:45

Doresh: Jan 7, 2015

Mors Rattus posted:

Uuuuugh, Princess.

I should eventually start working on a much more light-hearted rival product. Not sure which system to pick, though.

Carrasco posted:

quote:
Geniuses with a specific cultural or ethnic identity
Wow.

Every Japanese Genius builds multi-colored Giant Robots.

Mors Rattus posted:

I don't especially like it because, even more than anywhere else in Torg, it seems to have no ability to "win." I mean, the entire game is set up to keep you from winning against the High Lords, but it seems to believe it's possible, and it certainly wants you to believe it's possible.

Not to mention that 3327 is forced to off himself should this whole endeavour stop making profit, which sounds like it's relatively easy to do for a group of PCs with way too much explosives.

Still, the opressive atmosphere is something, though not exactly my sort of escapism.

Mors Rattus posted:

Even more than the other cosms and High Lords, Nippon Tech gets to me, though. No one is fighting back. Even if you take out 3327, you change nothing and fix nothing. The next guy is exactly the same. To achieve any positive progress at all you have to literally remake the universe's rules even if the Darkness Device were somehow not unstoppable and 3327 were somehow not a god. It is just...why would I ever want to interact with The World's Most Depressing Universe? This isn't a game about exploring the soul-crushing meaninglessness of corporate life - it's a game about being heroes who try and solve the world's problems.

Nippon Tech is completely out of place.

Except if Earth turns out ot be not profitable and they bail out. I'd say this is the easiest cosm to get rid off. Their High Lord can't be an irrational lunatic, after all.

Doresh fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Apr 9, 2015

# ? Apr 9, 2015 15:48

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

Serf posted:

If I was to ever run TORG (which I might legitimately try, it looks awesome) I'd do it in Fate and set the High Lords up as Factions like in Atomic Robo. Make them very much face-punchable and let the players go hog wild on taking them down if they want. Big battles to uproot the stelae, driving the High Lords back and eventually even breaking the Darkness Devices. That would actually be a cool campaign idea.

Also do away with the whole "your cool toys turn to rocks in other worlds" thing. You're a Storm Knight, you don't care about lame laws like that. Yeah I'd run that.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I'd kill for a Fate Core version of Torg. I have so many half-assed notes and ideas for it. And yes, I'd have transformation as something that only happens to Ords.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 15:52

fool of sound: Oct 10, 2012

Evil Mastermind posted:

And yes, I'd have transformation as something that only happens to Ords.

I've been thinking that non-detrimental transformation for each realm might be more interesting. Like a Asyle wizard might become a Watch-Dogs-esque magic hacker in Core Earth or Marketplace, a powerful priest in the Living Lands, a pulpy superscientist in the Nile Empire, and a hacker OR a witch in the Cyberpapacy. Basically, have players choose a high concept and aspects that are realm agnostic, and have them come up with realm appropriate versions of them whenever you change locations.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 16:01

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# ? Dec 10, 2024 11:48

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Doresh posted:

Every Japanese Genius builds multi-colored Giant Robots.

Eh, I think it's meant to be more along the lines of "Some geniuses like to invoke their country or culture's past if they're going for a pseudo-magical look." Like a genius from Greece or Italy might go for a very Classical look, or an Egyptian genius (or just one really into Ancient Egypt) might build their wonders out of stone and papyrus, and cover them in hieroglyphs. Every genius is highly eccentric in addition to being genuinely insane due to Inspiration, after all.

# ? Apr 9, 2015 16:04

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