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Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

neonchameleon posted:

But where 3.0 shattered everything was the saving throws and removal of the level soft-cap. In AD&D saving throws got relatively better as you levelled up (so you didn't throw save or suck spells at high level enemies because they wouldn't work). In 3.X they get relatively worse. The highest level PC in Greyhawk was about level 13. 7th level spells were things intended for big evil NPCs. Not for PCs to casually toss around multiple times a day. Also as well as the level cap being removed, so was the endgame. The fighter as a level 10 class feature got an army to balance out the wizard's power.

Things kinda went a bit ludicrous with the removal of the endgame. After hitting the level cap, heroes started running castles and monasteries, or running a kingdom. Godhood was also possible in some editions, changing the game completely as you can now swap into different avatars to scheme on the mortal realm against your rival gods.

In 3.X, endgame is the same kind of dungeon crawl you did before, but now the dungeon is in a different plane of existance, doors are actually Spheres of Annihilation, and the pitfall trap has a multi-headed half-dragon half-fiend tarrasque at the bottom. But it's all okay because the casters can nuke the whole place without much trouble.

Doresh fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Apr 25, 2015

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Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006

Thesaurasaurus posted:

It's also hilariously-parochial in its ignorance of fantasy source material. Dude's never heard of the Mahabharata and its Astras?

Or Hercules?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koX0RDUQHFs

ZorajitZorajit
Sep 15, 2013

No static at all...
Caster supremacy, I think, can often be better phrased as "high level caster supremacy." I rarely run games over level 10 for exactly the reasons mentioned, somewhere along the line we decided that The Hobbit needs a sequel that turns into Dragonball Z or Heavy Metal. And I totally get why that's appealing to some folks, nothing wrong about it. But at the point that the PCs stop being recognizable as mortals, the story really loses me. And I'm sure there are dozens of counter examples to prove to me that low level spell casters after 3rd edition are just as overpowered, but anecdotally, my table has managed to keep things relatively stable by having stories conclude before plot-device magic gets into player hands.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
Pre-3rd Edition Wizards started with a random or DM-determined spell list, and had a maximum number of spells they could ever learn, and had to roll a percentile dice to scribe a spell from a scroll into their spellbook. 18 INT would give you a 95% chance to scribe spells and lift the cap on the number of spells you could learn, but RAW you couldn't guarantee yourself an 18 INT.

Finding scrolls of spells was also a total crapshoot if you were doing it RAW since the DM was just rolling off of random drop tables. Maybe you'd find a Scroll of Sleep ... except the scribe attempt fails, and then maybe you'd find a Tenser's Floating Disk and that one you get to scribe. This would lead to the D&D computer games with optional rules for guaranteeing successful spell scribe attempts (on top of max HP per level-up), since you couldn't just grind dungeons until you got the scroll you wanted and you couldn't bribe the non-existent DM into just giving you what you wanted. The fact that the DM was the sole arbiter of what spells were available also made it easier for the DM to ban whatever it was they felt you shouldn't have: it just wouldn't ever drop.

There was also that whole thing about the number of pages of your spellbook that was consumed by scribing a spell getting exponentially higher with higher-level spells, to the tune of the Wizard having to spend several thousand gold on new spellbooks for higher-level spells, and since you could only carry so many books, you had to pick and choose which ones you'd carry with you even if you had all of them scribed already.

By the time you got to AD&D 2nd Edition, Wizard specialization kits were a way to somewhat alleviate all this pressure: you'd get an extra spell of your choice in the spell school you specialized in, so you could at least guarantee yourself a Sleep or a Magic Missile so you weren't completely useless for the first couple of levels barring more DM bribing. The Sorcerer was essentially a way of making a Grand Bargain: you could choose what spells you had for sure, in exchange for the ability to learn everything.

It was 3rd Edition that really busted down the walls of this whole system because now the Wizard could learn whatever spells they wanted as they leveled up, and they were guaranteed to learn them.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

ZorajitZorajit posted:

Caster supremacy, I think, can often be better phrased as "high level caster supremacy."

But this isn't even really true. There's a reason that "E6" stops at level 6, and even then it's entirely possible for spellcasters of the 3.x era to demonstrate their superiority way earlier than that (i.e. a Druid shapeshifting into a bear that is all around better at being a Fighter than a Fighter, a Cleric buffing themselves to accomplish the same thing, etc). In any game where you give one group of characters a big list of narrative permissions to break the rules and saddle one group of characters with a bunch of restrictions on what they can even consider trying to accomplish then it doesn't really matter what level you zoom in on.

Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Apr 26, 2015

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah


Sorry for dredging the ancient past, but I was re-listening to the System Mastery on Fantasy Imperium and got to the past about where the author was ripping off his elves. It sounds pretty much exactly like Tolkien. They live and die outside the destinies of mortal men, and they left paradise to live in a sin-cursed world. That's the elves leaving Valinor in the Silmarillion.

Sorry if this was covered when the episode came out.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Plague of Hats posted:

Sorry for dredging the ancient past, but I was re-listening to the System Mastery on Fantasy Imperium and got to the past about where the author was ripping off his elves. It sounds pretty much exactly like Tolkien. They live and die outside the destinies of mortal men, and they left paradise to live in a sin-cursed world. That's the elves leaving Valinor in the Silmarillion.

Sorry if this was covered when the episode came out.

I would have to go back and listen again, but ripping off Tolkien wouldn't surprise me. That guy writes fantasy novels now.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah


theironjef posted:

I would have to go back and listen again, but ripping off Tolkien wouldn't surprise me. That guy writes fantasy novels now.

Whoa, I have to find some of that poo poo.

Wrestlepig
Feb 25, 2011

my mum says im cool

Toilet Rascal
One thing that's annoying about Genius is that it missed an opportunity to balance with other wod lines, so you could have it play with werewolves or vampires.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah


Plague of Hats posted:

Whoa, I have to find some of that poo poo.

Hoooo boy





The top review for this $7 masterpiece starts off saying they thought the author was a woman "because 'Mark' had an excellent way of painting a scene with descriptions of clothing."

Edit: Ahhahaha



Edit 2: This is a judgy book!



:ironicat:

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Apr 26, 2015

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib
Avalanche Press, is that you?

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012

chaos rhames posted:

One thing that's annoying about Genius is that it missed an opportunity to balance with other wod lines, so you could have it play with werewolves or vampires.

Someone do Princess next. Maybe that might do it.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

chaos rhames posted:

One thing that's annoying about Genius is that it missed an opportunity to balance with other wod lines, so you could have it play with werewolves or vampires.

Near the end of the book there are some rough guidelines on how geniuses interact with other supernaturals if you want to do crossovers.

When it comes to balance versus other lines, the thing with geniuses is that it depends entirely on what wonders they have, which in turn means how much time, resources, and dots they have. Given the dots, time, and resources, a genius can build a Death Star. Without wonders, a genius' only abilities beyond a mortal human is their ability to screw with technology.

Next axiom will go up tonight.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer

Plague of Hats posted:

The top review for this $7 masterpiece starts off saying they thought the author was a woman "because 'Mark' had an excellent way of painting a scene with descriptions of clothing."

I would have guessed it because the protagonist is an agonizingly awful Sue and authorial mouthpiece.

occamsnailfile
Nov 4, 2007



zamtrios so lonely
Grimey Drawer

Bieeardo posted:

I would have guessed it because the protagonist is an agonizingly awful Sue and authorial mouthpiece.

That isn't a signifier of the author being a woman though. Honor Harrington is a ginormous Sue but David Weber is a beardy old dude.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah


I never got the "adolescent fan fiction-y writing is mostly girls" thing. So much of that poo poo is just as much teen boy power fantasy, especially the stuff that gets paid and published.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

"Send in Boxbot!"

Plague of Hats posted:

I never got the "adolescent fan fiction-y writing is mostly girls" thing. So much of that poo poo is just as much teen boy power fantasy, especially the stuff that gets paid and published.

Answered your own question there, I think!

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
I never claimed that it would have been a particularly good guess, especially given a few minutes of internal rubbernecking. :)

Same would go in the other direction, looking at that cringeworthy cover art and thinking 'dude ordered this crap', given the number of ebooks written by women that have similarly embarrassing covers.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




FMguru posted:

Everyone always forgets Tom-Tom :(

Yeah, the fact they have even two mid-level wizards gives them a great advantage over almost everyone. Alas for them, their adversaries include Nazgul-equivalents, the woman who can create the Nazgul, and her ex-husband from whom she stole some (not all) of his power.

It turns out that skilled illusionists are really powerful advantages in a fantasy-Vietnam campaign.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
Genius: The Transgression, Automata

It's alive! It's ALIIIIIIVE!

That's what this axiom boils down to, creating artificial life. Whether that means compliant and non-sentient robots, self-aware AI, zombies, houseplants that secrete pure cocaine, or a new human species, this is the axiom to do it. In general, anything that can act on its own without direct human input requires Automata.

Mechanical brains, AIs, and robots all use Computers to build, organic and formerly organic beings need Medicine to get them up and thinking, Au-4 and higher automatons need Academics to give them a functional psychology, and automatons made from corpses require Occult.

Factories can be constructed as well, and they require any relevant skills to build their products, Craft for physical objects, Medicine for living things, and Academics for intelligent wonders.

There's a whole slew of rules regarding how to design and upgrade your creations, and in short their abilities end at about human level. For enhanced senses beyond human limitations, weapons beyond bashing with a convenient appendage, or the like, you need integral wonders of the relevant axiom or graft on mundane technology.

All automatons require 1 point of Mania per day to function and suffer no ill effects if they go dormant.

Each tier includes a bunch of rules and details about precisely what a given tier of automata can and cannot do, but I'll skip over these unless someone's curious.

Automata 1 allows for simple trigger-based devices. Nothing really capable of acting on its own, but able to follow if/then instructions.

Automated factories can also be constructed with Automata, and at this rank are only capable of producing one specific task. What factories are capable of manufacturing, if provided the necessary materials, depends on the genius' Craft skill. Rank 1 in Craft means a factory that can't work with metal. Rank 5 means factories capable of producing modern 21st century technology.

Organic factories can't produce living things, but they can produce processed organic materials.

Artificial limbs are also possible at this rank, and get a bunch of rules I don't think anyone cares about.

Finally, at rank 1 Automata a genius can make a Mania-powered computer that has all the functionality of a regular computer but give an Equipment bonus based on the genius' Inspiration and rank of Automata.

Automata 2 is zombie-level intelligence. These automata are capable of understanding and following simple instructions but are extremely literal-minded and incapable of reasoning or independent thought. They're also completely loyal to their creator, and if a genius tells one to accept commands from someone else the automaton will default to the genius' commands if its maker and the second person come into conflict.

Factories at this level can produce simple living creatures: bacteria, fungi, and plants based on the genius' Science skill. One dot is algae and bacteria. Four is trees. Five is entirely new species.

Automata 3 is animal-level intelligence, comparable to a dog or monkey. Au-3 automatons are intelligent enough to have their own initiative and reasoning, and while they might make mistakes they're generally well-intentioned.

Factories at this level can produce living, though unintelligent, animals based on the genius' Medicine or Science skill (whichever is lower). One dot is insects and the like. Four is unusually intelligent animals like ravens or dolphins. Five is new species.

Fodder for these factories comes from an organic slurry that's up to the genius to provide - Genius suggests grinding up stray cats. Additionally, all animals produced by Automata factories (and presumably the plants from Au-2 factories though that's not addressed) are manes.

Automata 4 is human-level intelligence, though the people produced at this tier start as blank slates without any capacity for initiative or independent thought. However, that can change depending on the whims of the genius and the DM...

Factories at this tier are full-on cloning vats and using one is an Obligation-6 transgression. One dot of Academics, Medicine, or Science can only produce infants. Five is designer people full-grown. Like with Au-3 animals, people produced this way are manes.

Automata 5 is superhuman intelligence on par with the geniuses themselves, and that's before they get Inspired which many of them do.

Factories at this tier can build wonders, though the Mania cost of doing so can get very high very quickly.


Automata variables!

Automated Repair requires Exelixi 1 and gives an automaton passive self-repair abilities but adds a penalty to construction. Cannot be combined with Biological (I personally disagree with this and would waive that, justifying it as automatic cellular regeneration).

Biological makes an automaton a living creature, exchanging the various perks of being a robot like not needing to breathe for the ability to heal at the normal human rate.

Brain Backup gives the automaton a backup tape of its brain, letting the genius reset its memories and mind or restore them after the automaton's destruction.

Cannot Move is what it sounds like and grants automation points (part of rules I skipped, in short it gives the automaton more points to buy other abilities or improved functionality or the like).

Contact Trigger is for Au-1 wonders only and makes the wonder go off when touched. Tripwires, mines, etc.

Control Surface requires Skafoi 1 and lets the automaton be piloted like a vehicle.

Craniac is scooping out a person's brain to put in a new one of the genius' design. This is of course a major transgression and probably murder (though Epikrato 5 can "merely" wipe the brain clean of its existing mind and let a new one be programmed in).

Decentralized Anatomy is the favorite of DMs everywhere who hate people with sneak attack and downgrades many forms of lethal damage (notably bullets) to bashing.

Dexterous Limbs creates super-agile limbs.

Durable is what it sounds like and cannot be combined with Biological (again, I disagree).

Dynamic Factory lets a factory produce more than one specific type of object.

Extra Manipulators gives an automaton three or more limbs beyond the default setting of two.

Free Roaming requires Apokalypsi 1 and makes the automaton a computer program, mental simulation, etc that resides in a computer or mass of nervous tissue and has a slew of rules attached.

Increased Manipulator Range makes the automaton's limbs longer or otherwise adds a tractor beam or some such.

Limited Battery Life is again what it sounds like.

Looks Human makes an automaton... look human.

Low Intelligence creates an automaton with the power and flexibility of an automaton of one tier, but the intelligence or lack thereof of a lower tier. Bigger bonuses the further you downgrade.

Low-Light Vision requires Apokalypsi 1 and is self-explanatory.

Mute is only applicable to tier 4 and 5 automata and explicitly forbids easy workarounds like a text-based screen or telepathy.

Night Eyes requires Apokalypsi 1 and makes Low-Light Vision completely redundant.

No Fine Manipulators means an automaton has limbs comparable to tentacles or paws rather than something like a human hand.

No Manipulators yeah you know what this does.

Normal Power Source means an automaton doesn't run on Mania and instead plugs into a normal power source for an hour each day. Does not forbid being used with Biological, oddly enough, for all you Matrix and Lin Kuei Cyber Initiative fans.

No Senses is what it sounds like, though integral Apokalypsi wonders may be used as a workaround.

Only One Manipulator is yet another self-explanatory variable and makes me think there maybe should have been a table regarding limb functionality.

Remote Control requires Apokalypsi 1 and, well, lets the automaton be controlled remotely.

Size lets a genius customize the automaton's size.

Smartification Node is a science thingy you can attach to an animal to make it smarter and is usually combined with Uplift below.

Strong Limbs makes super-strong limbs.

Uplift erases a living creature's mind to turn it into an automaton, usually combined with a Smartification Node. Doing something similar to humans creates a Craniac instead, discussed earlier.

Wheels replaces an automaton's default legs with... wheels.


Sample Automata faults!

Genius posted:

1. The wonder is a bit unhinged. It suffers from one mild Derangement.

2. The wonder is very unhinged. It suffers from one major Derangement or two minor Derangements.

3. The wonder is physically shaky. It suffers a -1 penalty to all Dexterity actions related to manual actions.

4. The wonder radiates a sense of "wrongness" that offends all living things. Mortals grow edgy and irritable
around the wonder, and animals act fearful or aggressive.

5. The wonder emits a kind of low-level radiation that damages the world around it, spreading plague,
disfigurement, and disease for as long as it remains in one place out to 100' per rank. This is too subtle to
cause damage, but it will result in still births, sickly plant life, and even out-of-control storms.

6. The wonder interprets commands with bloody-minded, almost spiteful, literalness.

7. The wonder is highly susceptible to mental influence. It suffers a -5 penalty to resist metanormal control
and command, such as a mage's Mind Arcana or a vampire's Dominate powers.

8. The wonder requires some sort of "living" fuel, from blood to live mice to human souls, to continue
functioning. Every day that goes by without feeding, the wonder suffers a cumulative -1 penalty to all actions,
until it shuts down at -5.

9. The wonder is not particularly loyal. It will side with a genius with higher Inspiration if the other genius
asks and succeeds on a competing Manipulation + Persuasion check.

10. The wonder requires a special condition to keep functioning. Roll on the special conditions chart, below

See the special conditions chart in my post on Apokalypsi.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

My first thought was "oh hey at least he still has Greg Horn's number" but at second glance that's just the piece he commissioned for the cover to his never-happened Fantasy Imperium supplement. Shame to waste wet fairies, especially if they aren't marred by tattoos or piercings.

I wonder, when commissioning Greg Horn work, do you just do it by the square yard? I guess he can always make business cards that say "Greg Horn: The Second Hackiest Greg in comics today".

theironjef fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Apr 26, 2015

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

Nessus posted:

Even there, most of the company's wizards are portrayed as significantly weaker than the people with spooky names, aren't they? The Company just greatly benefits from having them - there were like, two, and that was exceptional.

FMguru posted:

Everyone always forgets Tom-Tom :(

Yeah, the fact they have even two mid-level wizards gives them a great advantage over almost everyone. Alas for them, their adversaries include Nazgul-equivalents, the woman who can create the Nazgul, and her ex-husband from whom she stole some (not all) of his power.

Even in the Chronicles of the Black Company there was a shitton of... power creep, for lack of a better word, especially in the later books once they start recruiting said Nazgul.

occamsnailfile posted:

That isn't a signifier of the author being a woman though. Honor Harrington is a ginormous Sue but David Weber is a beardy old dude.

Whyyyyyyy did you have to remind me of that awful series.


Picked it up because I really like sci fi, especially with female protagonists. And the kicker is that it could have been good. The framework was there, but the heroes were always successful due to the magic of libertarianism and Sue-hood.

The Iron Rose fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Apr 26, 2015

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

REIGNING YOSPOS COSTCO KING

The Iron Rose posted:

Picked it up because I really like sci fi, especially with female protagonists. And the kicker is that it could have been good. The framework was there, but the heroes were always successful due to the magic of libertarianism and Sue-hood.
To be fair, Honor Harrington is based on the classic Horatio Hornblower age-of-sail novels, which also feature a brave ship's captain who triumphs against a series of impossible challenges and rises up through the ranks because he's just that charmed and suoer-capable and incorruptibly honorable (he was also pretty much the model for Captain Kirk).

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten
Yeah, those "can't be combined with biological" bits are terrible. How is my Genius supposed to play real-life Starcraft without accurate Zerg?

Vox Valentine
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

4. The wonder radiates a sense of "wrongness" that offends all living things. Mortals grow edgy and irritable
around the wonder, and animals act fearful or aggressive.

5. The wonder emits a kind of low-level radiation that damages the world around it, spreading plague,
disfigurement, and disease for as long as it remains in one place out to 100' per rank. This is too subtle to
cause damage, but it will result in still births, sickly plant life, and even out-of-control storms.


Sooooo....a Genius can gently caress up royally making a clone of that Japanese pop idol they really like and instead make a loving Promethean? 'cuz that sounds like a super good idea...

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

pkfan2004 posted:

Sooooo....a Genius can gently caress up royally making a clone of that Japanese pop idol they really like and instead make a loving Promethean? 'cuz that sounds like a super good idea...

Honestly pretty okay with that turn. Except the 'attempted clone of a Japanese pop idol as a frankenstein's monster seeking a path to humanity' sounds like a way more fun character to play, but then Promethean always sounded cool.

LornMarkus
Nov 8, 2011

Apropos of nothing other than the previous partial discussion of 4th ed, but I'm curious what kind of opinions the thread has on Epic Destinies cause I never see anyone talk about them.

Personally I was always a huge fan all around, though I freely acknowledge the whole "and some basic rule of the game/universe no longer applies to you" was gonna wreak balance no matter what. Mostly, though, I liked that making it a part of character progression while having a built in "and this is how your story ends" made me think far more often about the full arc and finale of my characters and their stories.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

LornMarkus posted:

Apropos of nothing other than the previous partial discussion of 4th ed, but I'm curious what kind of opinions the thread has on Epic Destinies cause I never see anyone talk about them.

Personally I was always a huge fan all around, though I freely acknowledge the whole "and some basic rule of the game/universe no longer applies to you" was gonna wreak balance no matter what. Mostly, though, I liked that making it a part of character progression while having a built in "and this is how your story ends" made me think far more often about the full arc and finale of my characters and their stories.

Only ever got to use them once (which I think is probably a common experience) so it's hard to really say. I liked the death-defying nature of them, but a lot of those "final destiny" writeups felt samey. It was generally like "You retreat into the mists of history and keep using your rad powers but now it's all ethereal and mythical" next to "Your power grows into legend and people speak of how you used your rad powers in awestruck whispers for centuries."

hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.
Unlockable Ben

gradenko_2000 posted:

It was 3rd Edition that really busted down the walls of this whole system because now the Wizard could learn whatever spells they wanted as they leveled up, and they were guaranteed to learn them.

I think this and the earlier posts nailed it: it's less about the "Reverse of the nerds" fantasy-conspiracy thing and more about the fact that Wizards were kind of lame to play in 1e-2e, especially at early levels (with the usual caveat for your group/DM going way out of their way to stop them being so).

I remember playing a Wizard in a 2e Campaign (or maybe even 1e at that point? I'm not sure, we had a serious grognard for a DM at the time) and basically the entire session would be spent sitting by the side of the table nodding until something looked really threatening and then casting Sleep on it. You'd want it to be REALLY threatening though, because that was your one and only spell until an 8 hour rest. After that, you couldn't do anything in a fight except get murdered and you couldn't help out by being brainy with skills because there was no skill system and what check system there was didn't allow any checks equivalent to Arcana or Spellcraft.

So they decided to fix that, and had totally free rein to do it, because after all nobody really knows how magic "ought" to work. Then, when trying to fix the martial classes equally in 4e, they attracted fanrage because everybody - especially fantasy nerds - thinks they know how combat ought to work, and so complaint about things like Come And Get It in 4e, plus the relative power down of Wizards.

I just actually read the introduction of D&D 5e the other day (seriously, who reads the intro of an RPG, especially a new D&D edition?) and it actually specifically calls out that magic and the power of wizards is essential in the setting. When you see like that it just looks a bit like Mearls shrugging his shoulders.

Thesaurasaurus
Feb 15, 2010

"Send in Boxbot!"

theironjef posted:

Only ever got to use them once (which I think is probably a common experience) so it's hard to really say. I liked the death-defying nature of them, but a lot of those "final destiny" writeups felt samey. It was generally like "You retreat into the mists of history and keep using your rad powers but now it's all ethereal and mythical" next to "Your power grows into legend and people speak of how you used your rad powers in awestruck whispers for centuries."

Both of which are fairly uninspired but still beat out the Redeemed Drow Epic Destiny, in which your Immortality legend is that your soul spontaneously transmigrates and you are reborn as a pure, Aryan surface-dwelling elf.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Pre-3rd Edition Wizards started with a random or DM-determined spell list, and had a maximum number of spells they could ever learn, and had to roll a percentile dice to scribe a spell from a scroll into their spellbook. 18 INT would give you a 95% chance to scribe spells and lift the cap on the number of spells you could learn, but RAW you couldn't guarantee yourself an 18 INT.

Finding scrolls of spells was also a total crapshoot if you were doing it RAW since the DM was just rolling off of random drop tables. Maybe you'd find a Scroll of Sleep ... except the scribe attempt fails, and then maybe you'd find a Tenser's Floating Disk and that one you get to scribe. This would lead to the D&D computer games with optional rules for guaranteeing successful spell scribe attempts (on top of max HP per level-up), since you couldn't just grind dungeons until you got the scroll you wanted and you couldn't bribe the non-existent DM into just giving you what you wanted. The fact that the DM was the sole arbiter of what spells were available also made it easier for the DM to ban whatever it was they felt you shouldn't have: it just wouldn't ever drop.

There was also that whole thing about the number of pages of your spellbook that was consumed by scribing a spell getting exponentially higher with higher-level spells, to the tune of the Wizard having to spend several thousand gold on new spellbooks for higher-level spells, and since you could only carry so many books, you had to pick and choose which ones you'd carry with you even if you had all of them scribed already.

By the time you got to AD&D 2nd Edition, Wizard specialization kits were a way to somewhat alleviate all this pressure: you'd get an extra spell of your choice in the spell school you specialized in, so you could at least guarantee yourself a Sleep or a Magic Missile so you weren't completely useless for the first couple of levels barring more DM bribing. The Sorcerer was essentially a way of making a Grand Bargain: you could choose what spells you had for sure, in exchange for the ability to learn everything.

It was 3rd Edition that really busted down the walls of this whole system because now the Wizard could learn whatever spells they wanted as they leveled up, and they were guaranteed to learn them.

I guess that's an improvement over a la carte but otherwise unrestricted access to reality-breaking superpowers, but I'm not sure it's much of an endorsement that the primary balancing mechanism for spells was the same as that of the Deck of Many Things.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah


Thesaurasaurus posted:

I guess that's an improvement over a la carte but otherwise unrestricted access to reality-breaking superpowers, but I'm not sure it's much of an endorsement that the primary balancing mechanism for spells was the same as that of the Deck of Many Things.

That's part of the reason they got rid of it. The thrust is, you can see all these things that reined in wizards just falling away over the editions, replaced with nothing, while stealth (and not-so-stealth) restrictions were continually piled onto the stuff more grounded heroes would attempt.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Thesaurasaurus posted:

I guess that's an improvement over a la carte but otherwise unrestricted access to reality-breaking superpowers, but I'm not sure it's much of an endorsement that the primary balancing mechanism for spells was the same as that of the Deck of Many Things.

The thing is, you're right - much like material components and different experience levels across classes, the method of spell acquisition might have been effective from a purely mechanical standpoint, but it certainly didn't make for very good gameplay.

The other other thing that contributed to caster supremacy was that Fighters were supposed to have a posse of footmen and knights with him while inside dungeons and a literal army while outdoors. The Wizard might have a spell to unlock a door, but a Fighter would be able to accomplish the same thing just by having a half-dozen dudes use a literal battering ram on it.

It's just that, again, having to manage a dozen NPCs wasn't a great idea because the game never had any rules for abstracting them, which meant that you either had to run all of them RAW or you dropped the whole thing entirely.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

REIGNING YOSPOS COSTCO KING

hyphz posted:

I think this and the earlier posts nailed it: it's less about the "Reverse of the nerds" fantasy-conspiracy thing and more about the fact that Wizards were kind of lame to play in 1e-2e, especially at early levels (with the usual caveat for your group/DM going way out of their way to stop them being so).
Giving wizards more to do and more flexibility, especially at lower levels, was a generally good thing to do. The problem was that they overshot the mark with 3.x which was the Caster Supremacy edition, and when they tried to walk that back and rebalance the game in 4E, nerds had a shitfit (as extensively documented in the various grognard.txt threads).

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

REIGNING YOSPOS COSTCO KING

gradenko_2000 posted:

The thing is, you're right - much like material components and different experience levels across classes, the method of spell acquisition might have been effective from a purely mechanical standpoint, but it certainly didn't make for very good gameplay.
A lot of the wizard balancing rules were basically the DM being a dick to wizards. Spellbook got wet? Pouch of components got stolen? 1d4 Giant Rats woke you up in the night and you couldn't memorize your spells? Heh, enjoy your AC9 and your dagger and your D4 hit dice for the next three hours.

quote:

It's just that, again, having to manage a dozen NPCs wasn't a great idea because the game never had any rules for abstracting them, which meant that you either had to run all of them RAW or you dropped the whole thing entirely.
But there were rules for that!

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Plague of Hats posted:

That's part of the reason they got rid of it. The thrust is, you can see all these things that reined in wizards just falling away over the editions, replaced with nothing, while stealth (and not-so-stealth) restrictions were continually piled onto the stuff more grounded heroes would attempt.
I remember that clerics had bonus spell slots if they had high Wisdom, which could lead to a first level cleric having like four first level spells. (It was ambiguous if you got ALL your bonus spell slots at once or not - but you'd certainly have the first level ones.) It seems as though this, or allowing wizards to use small bows or some crap, would've addressed the issue (in the specific AD&D ambiance, of course).

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

theironjef posted:

Only ever got to use them once (which I think is probably a common experience) so it's hard to really say. I liked the death-defying nature of them, but a lot of those "final destiny" writeups felt samey. It was generally like "You retreat into the mists of history and keep using your rad powers but now it's all ethereal and mythical" next to "Your power grows into legend and people speak of how you used your rad powers in awestruck whispers for centuries."

Dark Sun had all the good Epic Destinies, like becoming an immortal Dragon-Sorceror.

Tasoth
Dec 12, 2011
If we're going to talk about fantasy literature that replicates D&D wizards, I'm surprised no one brought up the Malazan novels or the Three Seas novels. Both feature wizards as artillery and both have ways of dealing with it.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

pkfan2004 posted:

4. The wonder radiates a sense of "wrongness" that offends all living things. Mortals grow edgy and irritable
around the wonder, and animals act fearful or aggressive.

5. The wonder emits a kind of low-level radiation that damages the world around it, spreading plague,
disfigurement, and disease for as long as it remains in one place out to 100' per rank. This is too subtle to
cause damage, but it will result in still births, sickly plant life, and even out-of-control storms.


Sooooo....a Genius can gently caress up royally making a clone of that Japanese pop idol they really like and instead make a loving Promethean? 'cuz that sounds like a super good idea...

Geniuses are meant to gently caress up royally with their brilliant ideas and inventions. It ties into the line's stated theme of bitter disappointment: you're more than likely going to repeatedly fail to get your amazing ideas to work in the first place, and even when they do work it's almost certainly going to have at least one pervasive, irritating flaw. You have such amazing ideas and put so much time and effort into them, possibly forsaking your normal life to work on your inventions, yet they never seem to work all that well...

Nea
Feb 28, 2014

Funny Little Guy Aficionado.
On the other hand, while that ties in wonderfully to the themes, it's kind of an rear end to actually, you know, play.

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MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Neopie posted:

On the other hand, while that ties in wonderfully to the themes, it's kind of an rear end to actually, you know, play.

I don't think players need help being gently caress-ups. Like most Vampire players wanting to be some super-smart master manipulator but most end up being a variation of Ziggy Sabotka.

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