Linux: process number 2 is the logging subsystem

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > Linux: process number 2 is the logging subsystem

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DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

there is almost no reason in 2015 to use a linux desktop for developing linux software. sure, if you develop desktop gui applications for linux, but that's an extreme edge case.

linux on the desktop is a terrible user experience. it even faIls to provide a decent experience for developers such as myself who literally only run a browser and a terminal.

trying to convince people that linux on the desktop is a good experience just makes the linux / open source community as a whole look bad and dumb and not serious.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 17:27

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# ? Jan 18, 2025 13:51

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

you can make it a good experience, but only by spending hundreds of hours (and I mean hundreds) customizing it to be exactly to your liking. this is the only way to provide anything resembling a unified design. otherwise, you're stuck with using thousands of different peoples aggregate notion of how to make a ui.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 17:31

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

linux on the desktop is a toy platform that exists for hobbiest who want to massively customize their Ui experience. It is not a professional desktop UI, and it is not suitable for professionals who need their desktop experience to work consistently and reliably.

the linux server environment was also a toy platform for hobbiest nerds. but unlike gui development, there are actual business reasons to put tons of effort into making linux on the server good, and as a result, linux in the cloud is the only sane choice.

until there are compelling business reasons to make linux GUIs good, they will continue to be garbage for nerds who want to be in charge of their bespoke desktop environment.

or until enough time has passed that casual hobbiest developers finally start to catch up to the good interfaces. this is slowly happening with weyland and all.

DONT THREAD ON ME fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Dec 20, 2015

# ? Dec 20, 2015 17:40

Malcolm XML: Aug 8, 2009; I always knew it would end like ｔｈｉｓ．

Lysidas posted:

that this is how you have to do it on windows right? i have thankfully never done any windows systems programming, i only have some vague idea of how spawning a process on windows works by reading cygwin and/or msys devs describing the hoops they had to jump through to emulate fork()

im gonna mangle this until hackbunny shows up but windows process execution and creation is complicated because all win32 processes have a full event loop and other junk for gui programming so fork doesn't make a lot of sense (u get spawn via CreateProcess(Ex))

native NT processes dont have this restriction but they also dont do a lot of things that youd consider "windows" and that shits buried in advapi

paging (heh) hackbunny

# ? Dec 20, 2015 17:50

Jerry Bindle: May 15, 2003

i think shoegaze is right about how no good linux UI will exist unless there is a clear business reason. when proprietary unix workstations roamed the earth we had CDE, it was "ugly as all hell" (i liked it :/) but it did its job well served its purpose to provide a common environment for vendors to use. and even if the Good UI existed, i couldn't recommend a linux to a non power-nerd. gnome is really good, but then i bet a tone of people have problems similar to shoegaze's where the up/down key presses would randomly fire. i'm happy with my work laptop, fedora 23 t450s, but i had to spend a few hours fixing the wireless drivers, and several other finicky issues like that.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 17:59

mike12345: Jul 14, 2008; "Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to answer that. It's one of the great mysteries."

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

linux on the desktop is a terrible user experience. it even faIls to provide a decent experience for developers such as myself who literally only run a browser and a terminal.

the average person uses a browser and sometimes office. In that context, I don't know what would make Linux GUIs worse than Mac or Win. You click on the icon, boom, the browser. Then you click on the other icon, boom, Office.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:07

Smythe: Oct 12, 2003

I have to restart cups like every forth page

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:07

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

i mean, gnome is definitely loads better than it used to be and it is "usable." i mean it would totally be fine if my job didn't involve being in front of a computer all day. it's the small issues that really start to add up.

like having to install a plugin to disable the weird lower left notification nub that wouldn't fully close, and was blocking text in my terminal.

and having to rebind the up/down arrows in every program I use, because the touchpad is sending wild amounts of up/down buttons to every program for no reason.

and the enter password dialog periodically breaking and not showing up for interface applications until i do a restart.

all of these things have had solutions that involved hours of research / configuration. this is fine for a hobbiest desktop experience, and i do use gnome at home because i like playing with that poo poo sometimes. but when i'm working, get the gently caress out of here i'm not dealing with that poo poo.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:07

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

mike12345 posted:

the average person uses a browser and sometimes office. In that context, I don't know what would make Linux GUIs worse than Mac or Win. You click on the icon, boom, the browser. Then you click on the other icon, boom, Office.

then you don't loving know anything about user interfaces

"LOL IT"S NOT HARD YOU JUST NEED A BUTTON BOOM"

this kind of thinking is the reason linux desktop guis suck.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:08

mike12345: Jul 14, 2008; "Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to answer that. It's one of the great mysteries."

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

then you don't loving know anything about user interfaces and are the reason linux interfaces suck, and you should shut the gently caress up.

"LOL IT"S NOT HARD YOU JUST NEED A BUTTON BOOM"

get the gently caress outa here

Ok great

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:10

Smythe: Oct 12, 2003

mike12345 posted:

the average person uses a browser and sometimes office. In that context, I don't know what would make Linux GUIs worse than Mac or Win. You click on the icon, boom, the browser. Then you click on the other icon, boom, Office.

Not really tho. poo poo like the open file gump being hosed up linux poo poo stymie normalfags hard. I've had better luck with kde for every Tom dick and Harry but it still sucks and you need to cj the user a lot.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:10

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

mike12345 posted:

Ok great

sorry i edited that post because it was extremely hostile for no reason.

i apologize (like really)

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:10

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

i also do not know anything about user interfaces but at least i know it's really complicated and not just some 'soft' problem and turbonerds thinking it's easy is the reason it's almost always broken and hosed up.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:12

jre: Sep 2, 2011; To the cloud ?

mike12345 posted:

the average person uses a browser and sometimes office. In that context, I don't know what would make Linux GUIs worse than Mac or Win.

quote:

i bet a tone of people have problems similar to shoegaze's where the up/down key presses would randomly fire.

quote:

i had to spend a few hours fixing the wireless drivers, and several other finicky issues like that.

There's no polish to anything, the power management on laptops is loving woeful, there's marginally above zero testing on releases so something breaks everytime you upgrade.

Every year or so I think, ok I'll try desktop linux on my spare laptop, it must be better by now and nope still loving hopelessly broken.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:12

mike12345: Jul 14, 2008; "Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to answer that. It's one of the great mysteries."

Smythe posted:

Not really tho. poo poo like the open file gump being hosed up linux poo poo stymie normalfags hard. I've had better luck with kde for every Tom dick and Harry but it still sucks and you need to cj the user a lot.

I'm saying that people rarely leave the browser nowadays, so OS dependent GUI idiosyncrasies matter less and less. Is what I'm saying.

e: apologies accepted.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:12

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

I AM ALL HYPED UP ABOUT UX

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:15

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

jre posted:

There's no polish to anything, the power management on laptops is loving woeful, there's marginally above zero testing on releases so something breaks everytime you upgrade.

Every year or so I think, ok I'll try desktop linux on my spare laptop, it must be better by now and nope still loving hopelessly broken.

stop using ubuntu

they reinvent every wheel and they do it badly

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:16

craisins: May 17, 2004; A DRIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!

i dont use my laptop enough to give a poo poo what the os is on it. it's simply a portable browser/im/slack machine. if i could install slack and pidgin on chromeos, i'd probably get a chrome book

edit: and some way to ssh into things

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:17

pram: Jun 10, 2001

i cant believe it, an actual argument about linux on the desktop in the lotd thread

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:19

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Barnyard Protein posted:

i think shoegaze is right about how no good linux UI will exist unless there is a clear business reason. when proprietary unix workstations roamed the earth we had CDE, it was "ugly as all hell" (i liked it :/) but it did its job well served its purpose to provide a common environment for vendors to use.

cde was perfectly nice as a user but it had a lot of problems as a common platform

horrible loving code

it was a disgusting shitpile of code that everyone was afraid to touch. cde basically got one release on each vendor UNIX, and then it was never updated. it's unlikely that any of the vendors could produce a working build on demand. security holes went unfixed.

the open source release demonstrated how bad it really is inside. that poo poo was closed-source out of shame, not any competitive advantage.
motif

the unix hater's handbook calls motif "the motif self-abuse kit," and they're not wrong. motif is overcomplicated, hard to use, and somehow still didn't provide any widgets anyone needed for real life applications.

worst of all, the motif SDK cost like $500. someone actually thought this code was worth selling. meanwhile, win32 and os/2 SDKs are completely free.

this is hello world in dtksh, the gui-enabled scripting language that came with cde:
code:
```
#! /usr/dt/bin/dtksh

main()
{
	XtInitialize TOPLEVEL dtHello DtHello "$@" 

	XmCreateMessageDialog HELLO $TOPLEVEL hello \
		dialogTitle:"DtHello" \
		messageString:"$(print "Hello\nWorld")"

	XmMessageBoxGetChild HELP $HELLO DIALOG_HELP_BUTTON
	XtUnmanageChild $HELP
	XmMessageBoxGetChild CANCEL $HELLO DIALOG_CANCEL_BUTTON
	XtUnmanageChild $CANCEL

	XtAddCallback $HELLO okCallback exit

	XtManageChild $HELLO

	XtMainLoop
}

main
```
it didn't loving do anything

cde provided a lot of useful applications. it provided a standardized session manager and a standard desktop shell. so you could sit down and have the same file manager, the same calendar, etc on every desktop, but it wasn't much of a platform.

the cde equivalent of dbus was tooltalk, but nothing actually used it. cde was itself a creature of HP and HP-UX. tooltalk was a Sun-ism. a standards committee mandated that the two be glued together, somehow. cde applications were barely tooltalk-enabled, and pretty much no third party developers touched it.

cde's creators were forward-thinking enough to realize that people would want a scripting language for desktops, but they completely hosed it up. dtksh was a special korn shell extended with motif and tooltalk support. it is an unspeakable horror.

there was just no incentive for developers to integrate with the desktop. lots of unix ISVs adopted motif, but pretty much no one went any further. most 1990s unix applications didn't even support copy and paste. (other than plain text, obviously)

Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Dec 20, 2015

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:28

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

mike12345 posted:

I'm saying that people rarely leave the browser nowadays, so OS dependent GUI idiosyncrasies matter less and less. Is what I'm saying.

e: apologies accepted.

i think you're fundamentally correct. When I am using OSX, I'm hardly aware of the OS GUI at all, it's just me and the application. Switching around and between things and managing my system require very little active thought.

Unfortunately, when using a linux desktop gui, I am VERY aware of the system.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:30

jre: Sep 2, 2011; To the cloud ?

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

stop using ubuntu

they reinvent every wheel and they do it badly

Yeah I should use the good distro .... oh wait.

The unsolvable problem with desktop linux is too little resource spread hilariously thinly over multiple redundant projects.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:34

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

idgi chromebooks get like a million hours battery life so the potential for good battery life on linux laptops is there, surely

there's a few lines' worth of udev rules to enable sata/pci/usb power management i'm supposed to add to /etc/udev/rules.d like some sort of fukcing animal but they don't work. fml.

craisins posted:

i dont use my laptop enough to give a poo poo what the os is on it. it's simply a portable browser/im/slack machine. if i could install slack and pidgin on chromeos, i'd probably get a chrome book

edit: and some way to ssh into things

chromeos does have a built-in ssh client tho?

because google employees are required to do all their work over ssh since they're not allowed to have source code on their laptops. so chromeos is pmuch GoogleEmployeeOS

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:49

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

i get 8-10 hours out of my el cheapo black friday special laptop

i didn't do any tuning of any kind because lol at spending my day customizing linux

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:50

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

jre posted:

Yeah I should use the good distro .... oh wait.

The unsolvable problem with desktop linux is too little resource spread hilariously thinly over multiple redundant projects.

use kde on debian or fedora

bam, done.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:51

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

wow there must be a lot of tramp mode users at google

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:51

craisins: May 17, 2004; A DRIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!

Mr Dog posted:

chromeos does have a built-in ssh client tho?

nice, gonna get a chromebook

# ? Dec 20, 2015 18:59

celeron 300a: Jan 23, 2005; by exmarx; Yam Slacker

mike12345 posted:

the average person uses a browser and sometimes office. In that context, I don't know what would make Linux GUIs worse than Mac or Win. You click on the icon, boom, the browser. Then you click on the other icon, boom, Office.

A distribution specifically designed to do just that (if your Office was on the web) actually does it quite perfectly.

Take the terminal away from the user, remove all apps but the web browser, and you get an almost perfect user experience. I would give this to my parents except they need to use iTunes and Java on the browser.

The only gripe is that file management is crap.

(I'm talking about Chromium)

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:03

celeron 300a: Jan 23, 2005; by exmarx; Yam Slacker

Malcolm XML posted:

im gonna mangle this until hackbunny shows up but windows process execution and creation is complicated because all win32 processes have a full event loop and other junk for gui programming so fork doesn't make a lot of sense (u get spawn via CreateProcess(Ex))

native NT processes dont have this restriction but they also dont do a lot of things that youd consider "windows" and that shits buried in advapi

paging (heh) hackbunny

hackbunny doesn't show up to give you windows os horror stories unless you mention his name three times in the same post

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:05

celeron 300a: Jan 23, 2005; by exmarx; Yam Slacker

craisins posted:

nice, gonna get a chromebook

You don't get terminal access unless you root it. Which Google allows you to do but you lose a bunch of security features.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:08

craisins: May 17, 2004; A DRIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!

celeron 300a posted:

You don't get terminal access unless you root it. Which Google allows you to do but you lose a bunch of security features.

i have a feeling those ssh chrome extensions probably aren't the safest things either, are they

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:11

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

an os without a terminal...

idk that's like making an rear end without an rear end in a top hat. it seems nice in theory if you're into butts but kinda grossed out by assholes, but ultimately it's just not a functional experience and a total pain in the rear end

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:12

pram: Jun 10, 2001

you can in fact use ssh on a chromebook without rooting it from crosh

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:12

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

pram posted:

you can in fact use ssh on a chromebook without rooting it from crosh

what's that?

ewwwwwww

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:15

pram: Jun 10, 2001

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:15

celeron 300a: Jan 23, 2005; by exmarx; Yam Slacker

pram posted:

you can in fact use ssh on a chromebook without rooting it from crosh

I totally did not know about crosh, this is awesome. I stand corrected.

I can finally debug my network connection issues over mobile broadband without going into developer mode.

Unfortunately, still can't install pidgin on it.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:18

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

so can you jump into developer mode pretty easily without like, reinstalling the os? how compelling are the security features you lose out on?

because that's not really a deal breaker for me depending on how bad it is.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:20

celeron 300a: Jan 23, 2005; by exmarx; Yam Slacker

pram posted:

I bet there is some seriously impressive SELinux based lockdown, or at least some kind of LSM, to lock down port usage to that extent.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:21

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

there are very good reasons NeXT won out of all the UNIX vendors

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:22

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# ? Jan 18, 2025 13:51

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

i havent tried KDE in a long time. maybe i'll give it a shot again because it's been many years.

but i absolutely hated it.

# ? Dec 20, 2015 19:23

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > Linux: process number 2 is the logging subsystem

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