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eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

DoomTrainPhD posted:

docker on macs is horrible

how so, other than the regular horror that is Docker

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eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

PCjr sidecar posted:

gross, what are you doing where you think a > 2gb deb is a good idea

yeah itís not like anyone going to ship a game that way

eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Poopernickel posted:

In my case, I was trying to package Xilinx lab tools for easy installation/remote management on a bunch of hardware lab machines.

put them on a shared filesystem, why would your lab machines even have local disk

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

eschaton posted:

how so, other than the regular horror that is Docker

Docker on MacOS runs in a VM and eats up a horrendous amount of Ram/CPU usage.

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 11 years!)

eschaton posted:

how so, other than the regular horror that is Docker

it's a hidden linux vm so there's extra performance and permissions implications

Nomnom Cookie
Aug 30, 2009



DoomTrainPhD posted:

Docker on MacOS runs in a VM and eats up a horrendous amount of Ram/CPU usage.

its good enough for docker build. dont use it for anything else

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

Nomnom Cookie posted:

its good enough for docker build. dont use it for anything else

At my old job we had a choice between MacBooks and Dell XPS 15's. I wanted a Dell but my boss stepped in and said "on this team we use Macs."

It was horrible. We used docker for everything because the product was an embedded Linux project. Compiling, developing, and testing all happened in docker on a Mac. It was horrendous and I am glad I no longer work there.

eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

carry on then posted:

it's a hidden linux vm so there's extra performance and permissions implications

LOL because why take advantage of a stable userspace ABI when you can just run everything under a VM instead

I had cause to run a Windows command line binary from a shell script recently, and using WINE to do so worked pretty well precisely because it isnít a VM

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

eschaton posted:

LOL because why take advantage of a stable userspace ABI when you can just run everything under a VM instead

I had cause to run a Windows command line binary from a shell script recently, and using WINE to do so worked pretty well precisely because it isnt a VM

MacOS doesn't natively support containers.

Nomnom Cookie
Aug 30, 2009



DoomTrainPhD posted:

MacOS doesn't natively support containers.

linux doesn't natively support containers either, it supports a mess of features that you can sorta jigsaw into containers if you're careful

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

Nomnom Cookie posted:

linux doesn't natively support containers either, it supports a mess of features that you can sorta jigsaw into containers if you're careful

Fine. MacOS doesn't even have the jigsaw pieces.

Nomnom Cookie
Aug 30, 2009



eschaton posted:

LOL because why take advantage of a stable userspace ABI when you can just run everything under a VM instead

I had cause to run a Windows command line binary from a shell script recently, and using WINE to do so worked pretty well precisely because it isnít a VM

some people at microsoft thought like you did, and the result was WSL. a few years later, WSL2 is virtualized because that works better. the problems with docker on macos are about macos being dogshit, and docker being dogshit, not anything inherent to virtualization

pram
Jun 10, 2001

DoomTrainPhD posted:

Docker on MacOS runs in a VM and eats up a horrendous amount of Ram/CPU usage.


carry on then posted:

it's a hidden linux vm so there's extra performance and permissions implications

how come no one says this when theyre jerking off about wsl2 lol

eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

DoomTrainPhD posted:

MacOS doesn't natively support containers.

it does, in fact, in a similar way to how Linux does, how do you think the simulator works

what macOS doesnít support natively are Linux containers

Docker could implement the Linux system call ABI pretty much however they want in order to implement Linux containers, they donít have to do so by actually running Linux in a VM

there was a tool for the Power Mac running System 7 that would let you run an AIX binary under Macintosh Programmerís Workshop, it did so by implementing an XCOFF loader and fixing up the AIX binaryís library imports with its own implementation, which was enough for a tool that used mainly stdio to work

Linux has a pretty serious design flaw in that its official system call entry points are the trap instructions rather than a shared library everything links, but that should still be plenty easy to fix up at load time by scanning the instruction stream and replacing syscall traps with calls to a syscall dispatch function

eschaton
Mar 7, 2007

Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Nomnom Cookie posted:

some people at microsoft thought like you did, and the result was WSL. a few years later, WSL2 is virtualized because that works better. the problems with docker on macos are about macos being dogshit, and docker being dogshit, not anything inherent to virtualization

the problems you cite with WSL are about Windows being dogshit, not anything inherent to syscall interception

hell, how much of WSLís climes performance issues were due to assumptions the Linux code people were running made about the performance of various filesystem operations, and how well would that code run against NFS or the Andrew filesystem?

Perplx
Jun 26, 2004


Best viewed on Orgasma Plasma
Lipstick Apathy
macOS getting Linux container supports seems inevitable to me, but it might take 10 years.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Some people don't take the plight of Sisyphus seriously, but his struggle was actually to get a working docker dev enviroment on macos this whole time.

Last time he got to the top by hacking permissions until unit tests were green, but the boulder rolled back down into the "now add support for this into your ci system" ditch. Poor bastard. He doesn't even know half the dev team already upgraded to Big Sur.

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
It's brutal, but I also can't fault Hades for punishing Sisyphus' trickery in this way. When asked why his resume didn't match his skillset, Sisyphus replied "Well MacOS is certified UNIX"

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

DoomTrainPhD posted:

At my old job we had a choice between MacBooks and Dell XPS 15's. I wanted a Dell but my boss stepped in and said "on this team we use Macs."

It was horrible. We used docker for everything because the product was an embedded Linux project. Compiling, developing, and testing all happened in docker on a Mac. It was horrendous and I am glad I no longer work there.

lol did your boss also care about whether you used emacs or vim???

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

Progressive JPEG posted:

lol did your boss also care about whether you used emacs or vim???

No, but heís an rear end in a top hat who cares about covering his own rear end more than his employees.

Nomnom Cookie
Aug 30, 2009



eschaton posted:

the problems you cite with WSL are about Windows being dogshit, not anything inherent to syscall interception

hell, how much of WSLís climes performance issues were due to assumptions the Linux code people were running made about the performance of various filesystem operations, and how well would that code run against NFS or the Andrew filesystem?

yes and you can imagine how a dogshit OS pretending to be another dogshit OS doesn't work very well. same is true of virtualization, but virtualization has had a shitload of engineering put into it

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
Linux recently gained a multiple personality disorder capability in order to support windows game DRM. So if you wanted to trap your own syscalls from user space you can now do that.

Quite how hardcoded nt traps would reliably work from a game DRM implementer's standpoint is beyond me though. I thought the syscall numbers got randomized in every build of nt and then codegenned into the ntdll build.

The_Franz
Aug 8, 2003

Sapozhnik posted:

Linux recently gained a multiple personality disorder capability in order to support windows game DRM. So if you wanted to trap your own syscalls from user space you can now do that.

Quite how hardcoded nt traps would reliably work from a game DRM implementer's standpoint is beyond me though. I thought the syscall numbers got randomized in every build of nt and then codegenned into the ntdll build.

https://j00ru.vexillium.org/syscalls/nt/64/

they seem pretty stable with occasional version bumps. game publishers only really care about early sales, so if the drm renders something unplayable two years later oh well. they'll just update or patch out the copy protection at that point, assuming they still care

Laslow
Jul 18, 2007

Nomnom Cookie posted:

yes and you can imagine how a dogshit OS pretending to be another dogshit OS doesn't work very well. same is true of virtualization, but virtualization has had a shitload of engineering put into it
thatís a lot of poo poo. fuckin operating systems, man.

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Edit: nm

sb hermit
Dec 13, 2016





I've been waiting for awhile for CentOS 8 Stream to get firefox 78.6.1 until today, when I just switched my desktop to Ubuntu 20.04.

That version is important because Firefox 78.6.1 is the ESR release that fixes the critical SCTP (yeah, I heard the joke) bug in 78.6.0. So I get the feeling that anything downstream of redhat itself may start getting the short shrift, but we won't know until the CentOS crowd migrates over.

At this rate, when my CentOS 7 servers get EOL, they'll get switched over to Ubuntu as well.

Or maybe I should just start installing SUSE as an excuse to learn German.

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

sb hermit posted:

I've been waiting for awhile for CentOS 8 Stream to get firefox 78.6.1 until today, when I just switched my desktop to Ubuntu 20.04.

That version is important because Firefox 78.6.1 is the ESR release that fixes the critical SCTP (yeah, I heard the joke) bug in 78.6.0. So I get the feeling that anything downstream of redhat itself may start getting the short shrift, but we won't know until the CentOS crowd migrates over.

At this rate, when my CentOS 7 servers get EOL, they'll get switched over to Ubuntu as well.

Or maybe I should just start installing SUSE as an excuse to learn German.

Ubuntu 20.04 with ZFS is very good. I switched over from Fedora last month and have been very happy.

cowboy beepboop
Feb 24, 2001


sb hermit posted:

I've been waiting for awhile for CentOS 8 Stream to get firefox 78.6.1 until today, when I just switched my desktop to Ubuntu 20.04.

That version is important because Firefox 78.6.1 is the ESR release that fixes the critical SCTP (yeah, I heard the joke) bug in 78.6.0. So I get the feeling that anything downstream of redhat itself may start getting the short shrift, but we won't know until the CentOS crowd migrates over.

At this rate, when my CentOS 7 servers get EOL, they'll get switched over to Ubuntu as well.

Or maybe I should just start installing SUSE as an excuse to learn German.

lol using centos for a desktop

sb hermit
Dec 13, 2016





my stepdads beer posted:

lol using centos for a desktop

I was using fedora before and every other kernel upgrade killed the display driver

switching to centos fixed that issue

DoomTrainPhD posted:

Ubuntu 20.04 with ZFS is very good. I switched over from Fedora last month and have been very happy.

I'd rather switch to btrfs before I try zfs (although I might give freenas a shot) but it's certainly nice to have it as an option

cowboy beepboop
Feb 24, 2001


i set up a freenas san recently, it's good. don't run the bleeding edge release though, eg https://www.ixsystems.com/blog/library/truenas-12-0-u1.1/

pram
Jun 10, 2001

Soricidus
Oct 21, 2010
freedom-hating statist shill
does the Firefox auto update not work on linux? package managers are often convenient but theyíre not always appropriate for software that almost exclusively handles untrusted content, is actively targeted by malware, and has a primary source of timely and trustworthy patches

Tankakern
Jul 25, 2007

wow

mystes
May 31, 2006

Soricidus posted:

does the Firefox auto update not work on linux? package managers are often convenient but they’re not always appropriate for software that almost exclusively handles untrusted content, is actively targeted by malware, and has a primary source of timely and trustworthy patches
It should work unless your distribution disables it but I don't know if they can even do that unless they build their own version and remove the firefox branding now? I'm not sure but updates definitely work for me on ubuntu.

mystes fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Jan 17, 2021

Hed
Mar 31, 2004

Fun Shoe

The_Franz
Aug 8, 2003

Soricidus posted:

does the Firefox auto update not work on linux? package managers are often convenient but theyíre not always appropriate for software that almost exclusively handles untrusted content, is actively targeted by malware, and has a primary source of timely and trustworthy patches

the internal updater works if you install it manually, otherwise it goes through distro repositories

xtal
Jan 9, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
That question seems really silly. Depending on which repository you're using you can get updates just as fast as nightly without circumventing the package manager. I believe there are nightly deb repositories, and there are definitely nightly Firefox updates on distros that are designed to install Firefox, such as Arch (not server/LTS distros.) Packages that update themselves are TERRIBLE, see snaps on Ubuntu.

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418

A package updating itself seems like a recipe for disaster when the repo gets an updated version, doesn't know what version the software had updated to, and tries to overwrite it with whatever it gets in its update.

The_Franz
Aug 8, 2003

RFC2324 posted:

A package updating itself seems like a recipe for disaster when the repo gets an updated version, doesn't know what version the software had updated to, and tries to overwrite it with whatever it gets in its update.

hence why firefox only self-updates if you explicitly don't install it via a package manager

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RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418

The_Franz posted:

hence why firefox only self-updates if you explicitly don't install it via a package manager

Yeah, i was pointing that out to the people aghast that thats how it works.

Just use a rolling release, safest bet of an up to date browser. Also, use a cron job or something to do updates automagically

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