Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
mycophobia
May 7, 2008

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP
i do not understand why people hate systemd other than grognard poo poo and i in fact quite like it

Tankakern
Jul 25, 2007

Jonny 290 posted:

i do not understand why people hate systemd other than grognard poo poo and i in fact quite like it

dougdrums
Feb 25, 2005
CLIENT REQUESTED ELECTRONIC FUNDING RECEIPT (FUNDS NOW)
itís not obtuse enough to make me feel smart

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

Jonny 290 posted:

i do not understand why people hate systemd other than grognard poo poo and i in fact quite like it

it is not very hard to understand, the older init systems are conceptually trivial and as a result a small fun exercise to figure out, which makes you feel in control and generally on top of how your computer works.

of course they turn out too limited for a lot of modern tasks, and have been replaced by systemd and others which amalgamate together a bunch of things, in the process making them a complex enough bureaucracy to not be worth the time to learn much about unless you're getting paid or are desperately boring person. i.e. same place that windows startup/services has been in since for decades, for the same reasons.

Tatsujin
Apr 26, 2004

:golgo:
EVERYONE EXCEPT THE HOT WOMEN
:golgo:
my fav thing about java on linux was all the bs you had to go through just to natively compile tomcat on linux and to use jsvc and mod_jk like why not make that the default if I have to janitor java

Athas
Aug 6, 2007

fuck that joker

So Linux absolutely does not lead to healthy weight, but I think for computer touchers, running some janky Linux distro does give you practice at reading (or reconstructing) docs, debugging things that should already work, and generally practice skills that you'll need sooner or later anyway. Worked for me, so I tell the students at our department that it's worth running for this reason alone.

Also, I remember once running some statistics and discovering that people who used Unix linebreaks in their assignments for some course got higher grades on average for that course, compared to those who used DOS linebreaks. That's probably more muddled now with WSL and macOS being so popular.

Pile Of Garbage
May 28, 2007



Athas posted:

So Linux absolutely does not lead to healthy weight, but I think for computer touchers, running some janky Linux distro does give you practice at reading (or reconstructing) docs, debugging things that should already work, and generally practice skills that you'll need sooner or later anyway. Worked for me, so I tell the students at our department that it's worth running for this reason alone.

Also, I remember once running some statistics and discovering that people who used Unix linebreaks in their assignments for some course got higher grades on average for that course, compared to those who used DOS linebreaks. That's probably more muddled now with WSL and macOS being so popular.

source your quotes

Zlodo
Nov 25, 2006

Jonny 290 posted:

i do not understand why people care about systemd one way or another

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011


systemd is fine.

every distro using a different fuckin network config system though, and changing it every couple major versions? that can gently caress off forever.

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

well, systemd is at minimum necessary. i am not actually sure it is the best architecture for the purpose, might have made more sense to make a more extensible thing with a core of common primitives rather than the fairly tight coupling it ended up with, but not very meaningful to question now.

still, read literally it is hard to understand how you can't understand why some people dislike it.

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003

by Pragmatica
Anyone who thinks sysv or bsd4 init is better than systemd needs drugs - like a weeks worth of shrooms and ketamine, because their stuck in one hell of a cognitive rut.

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003

by Pragmatica
SYSV and BSD4.3 were designed to run on systems where the "motherboard" was still wire wrapped.



Not integrating init/cron/logging/mounting is like arguing that computer engineers shouldn't have integrated the ALU, registers, etc. into a single chip because a modular design had utility

cowboy beepboop
Feb 24, 2001


Kazinsal posted:

systemd is fine.

every distro using a different fuckin network config system though, and changing it every couple major versions? that can gently caress off forever.

systemd-network when

fake edit https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-networkd oh cool

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

SYSV Fanfic posted:

SYSV and BSD4.3 were designed to run on systems where the "motherboard" was still wire wrapped.



Not integrating init/cron/logging/mounting is like arguing that computer engineers shouldn't have integrated the ALU, registers, etc. into a single chip because a modular design had utility

now explain this in such a way that the posters above understand why you care

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

keeping the l2 cache off the processor in adherence to the unix philosophy

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

5v and 12v from the same psu? that's not elegant at all

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003

by Pragmatica

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

now explain this in such a way that the posters above understand why you care

Because I'm an engineer. If an issue exists I have to have a strong opinion about it, regardless of how much I actually know.

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






SYSV Fanfic posted:

SYSV and BSD4.3 were designed to run on systems where the "motherboard" was still wire wrapped.




don't care 2 shits about the systemd thing but that board is beautiful. Just look at those sick 1970's vector graphics fonts

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009



spankmeister posted:

don't care 2 shits about the systemd thing but that board is beautiful. Just look at those sick 1970's vector graphics fonts

SYSV Fanfic
Sep 9, 2003

by Pragmatica
The unix philosophy (the programs must be kept seperate) aroused around the same time the supreme court said the races couldn't be kept separate. I think people at the time just liked keeping things seperate, because it helped them understand things. Unfortunately we wound up with a lot of race issues in linux as a result. So we did integration and wound up with systemd.

hope that clears things up.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

SYSV Fanfic posted:

The unix philosophy (the programs must be kept seperate) aroused around the same time the supreme court said the races couldn't be kept separate. I think people at the time just liked keeping things seperate, because it helped them understand things. Unfortunately we wound up with a lot of race issues in linux as a result. So we did integration and wound up with systemd.

hope that clears things up.

what in tarnation

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






SYSV Fanfic posted:

The unix philosophy (the programs must be kept seperate) aroused around the same time the supreme court said the races couldn't be kept separate. I think people at the time just liked keeping things seperate, because it helped them understand things. Unfortunately we wound up with a lot of race issues in linux as a result. So we did integration and wound up with systemd.

hope that clears things up.

:wtc:

The_Franz
Aug 8, 2003

Jonny 290 posted:

i do not understand why people hate systemd other than grognard poo poo and i in fact quite like it

there's definitely a job security angle in that a bespoke set of init scripts, tied together over the years with string and gum and requiring constant janitoring to work properly, is replaced by something that actually works reliably and requires simple, 5 line configuration files that anyone even marginally technically competent can write. systemd is to unix graybeards as the automated telephone switch was to operators

NihilCredo
Jun 6, 2011

iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

The_Franz posted:

there's definitely a job security angle in that a bespoke set of init scripts, tied together over the years with string and gum and requiring constant janitoring to work properly, is replaced by something that actually works reliably and requires simple, 5 line configuration files that anyone even marginally technically competent can write. systemd is to unix graybeards as the automated telephone switch was to operators

i've never written either a sysv init script or a systemd unit file, but this quick tutorial definitely makes me more inclined towards the latter:

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/converting-traditional-sysv-init-scripts-red-hat-enterprise-linux-7-systemd-unit-files

however, my understanding is that modern non-systemd distros tend to go for openrc rather than the venerable sysv-init, and the openrc layout seems pretty reasonable to me:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:X86/Working/Initscripts#Layout

Zlodo
Nov 25, 2006

SYSV Fanfic posted:

The unix philosophy (the programs must be kept seperate) aroused around the same time the supreme court said the races couldn't be kept separate. I think people at the time just liked keeping things seperate, because it helped them understand things. Unfortunately we wound up with a lot of race issues in linux as a result. So we did integration and wound up with systemd.

hope that clears things up.

powerful username post combo

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008


my favorite part is that each distro creates its own network management tool for ethernet and wifi and forgets that anything else exists. so when you want to do something like manage a cellular modem they say "oh uhhhh... install NetworkManager I guess?" and then everything fights each other and nothing works quite the way it should

usually you can get pppd working easily enough because i guess thats needed for pppoe but people tend to notice when their lte cat 4 modems are limited to 1 mbit (or comically, 115200)

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
Most things that aren't vanilla Debian use NetworkManager these days don't they?

idk itjustworks for at least the past five years or so. For its first decade of existence though NetworkManager was indeed flaky and unreliable.

Agile Vector
May 21, 2007

scrum bored



hobbesmaster posted:

everything fights each other and nothing works quite the way it should

mycophobia
May 7, 2008

Sapozhnik posted:

Most things that aren't vanilla Debian use NetworkManager these days don't they?

idk itjustworks for at least the past five years or so. For its first decade of existence though NetworkManager was indeed flaky and unreliable.

i think vanilla debian uses it too

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 11 years!)

Tatsujin posted:

my fav thing about java on linux was all the bs you had to go through just to natively compile tomcat on linux and to use jsvc and mod_jk like why not make that the default if I have to janitor java

lmao what? our ee-compliant app server just requires java on order to build, thatís impressively annoying

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP
yeah ive written several systemd files to turn dumb one-off scripts into a real service.

now, of course, if its not a super low level thing that has to run on the host OS i immediately search for `<thing> docker` and if that exists i go for it

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003


fwiw ive heard from devops types that that particular component is bad, along with resolved

but they might have gotten better by now idk, someone else here might know more

and nobody broadly complaining about systemd even knows of the existence of the b-tier cobranded parts

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






idk all I know is that the people who make the distro I use worry about all that stuff and I get something that Just Works

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

took until just now to realize that the recent microservice/distributed monolith fad can probably be traced back to systemd arguers screaming unix philosophy at everything

mycophobia
May 7, 2008

spankmeister posted:

idk all I know is that the people who make the distro I use worry about all that stuff and I get something that Just Works

as a weirdo who uses linux as a desktop os systemd has never noticeably affected me

dougdrums
Feb 25, 2005
CLIENT REQUESTED ELECTRONIC FUNDING RECEIPT (FUNDS NOW)
man i fuckin hate resolved. itís cool maybe 70% of the time, ya I get it. i canít even chattr +i the motherfucker the other 30%.

sb hermit
Dec 13, 2016





Progressive JPEG posted:

fwiw ive heard from devops types that that particular component is bad, along with resolved

but they might have gotten better by now idk, someone else here might know more

and nobody broadly complaining about systemd even knows of the existence of the b-tier cobranded parts

systemd-resolved does not act like normal resolv.conf by design

so if it suits your needs it works great, but otherwise it's f'ing dumb

dunno about networkd but CentOS 8 now seems to use nm-cli rather than network-scripts and it's been needs suiting, yeah

mawarannahr
May 21, 2019
I want to be able to sit down and say ďthis is Unix. I know thisĒ and have the tomes of manuals I read autistically to have relevance. I used to read the x11 manuals too (a big part of why I dislike wayland, probably
) thereís nothing comparable anymore and the way things fit together donít make sense. itís dissonant with my idea of unix history and convention, which seemed pretty great to me. things change too fast now and itís mostly just red hat winging it. freebsd 5.x felt like a home ó linux feels like an airbnb.

I donít like it because I donít like it and the mental structures I built around BSD are increasingly irrelevant yet arenít replaced by anything that makes my life better at all. itís complicated in places I donít need it to be complicated, and oversimplified in places i want more control. similar with how python took over everything when smalltalk, which actually makes sense and had nice books, was right there (io would have made a good replacement that works better with the Unix model). good books are important to my computing experience. now thereís just terrible man pages, README.md, and web tutorials.

i know it sounds like a joke but im serious about unix as a way of structuring the space inside a computer ó i knew the building layout, how the furnace worked, how to replace the fuse and so on, and there were good blueprints and product manuals. i feel kind of lost now and need to go to (lovely) docs a lot more because i donít know how to memorize the new stuff, it doesnít mesh well with the old knowledge.

gently caress esr, cathedrals all the way.

mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Oct 30, 2021

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP

mawarannahr posted:

I want to be able to sit down and say ďthis is Unix. I know thisĒ and have the tomes of manuals I read autistically to have relevance. I used to read the x11 manuals too (a big part of why I dislike wayland, probably
) thereís nothing comparable anymore and the way things fit together donít make sense. itís dissonant with my idea of unix history and convention, which seemed pretty great to me. things change too fast now and itís mostly just red hat winging it. freebsd 5.x felt like a home ó linux feels like an airbnb.

I donít like it because I donít like it and the mental structures I built around BSD are increasingly irrelevant yet arenít replaced by anything that makes my life better at all. itís complicated in places I donít need it to be complicated, and oversimplified in places i want more control. similar with how python took over everything when smalltalk, which actually makes sense and had nice books, was right there (io would have made a good replacement that works better with the Unix model). good books are important to my computing experience. now thereís just terrible man pages, README.md, and web tutorials.

i know it sounds like a joke but im serious about unix as a way of structuring the space inside a computer ó i knew the building layout, how the furnace worked, how to replace the fuse and so on, and there were good blueprints and product manuals. i feel kind of lost now and need to go to (lovely) docs a lot more because i donít know how to memorize the new stuff, it doesnít mesh well with the old knowledge.

gently caress esr, cathedrals all the way.

a good post and i appreciate it

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply