Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Booblord Zagats
Oct 30, 2011




Pork Pro

Zeroisanumber posted:

The Turks might have something to say about that.

Up until their current president, the Turkish government was a major behind the scenes supporter of Israel. If joining together would have let them go buck-wild on Kurds and Syrians, Turkey would have probably helped them.



Snowdens Secret posted:




All those ultraorthodox Russian immigrants aren't breeding that fast

They need to hurry it up. Or just start immigrating some of the Ethiopian Jews in faster

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

krispykremessuck
Jul 22, 2005

unlike most veterans and SA members $10 is not a meaningful expenditure for me

I'm gonna have me a swag Bar-B-Q

Snowdens Secret posted:

quote:

Netanyahu will look indecisive and confused, because he has to deal with an openly hostile U.S. administration on one side and his nationalist camp on the other.

lmao ok

Snowdens Secret
Dec 29, 2008
Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.


Adminstration, not the whole country. To the degree they're not bound by Congress, this administration's been pretty darned hostile

http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-obama-official-blasts-israel-for-denying-palestinians-sovereignty-security-dignity/

quote:

Israel’s ongoing occupation of the West Bank is wrong and leads to regional instability and dehumanization of Palestinians, a top American government official said Tuesday in Tel Aviv, hinting that the current Israeli government is not committed to peace.

In an unusually harsh major foreign policy address, Philip Gordon, a special assistant to US President Barack Obama and the White House coordinator for the Middle East, appealed to Israeli and Palestinian leaders to make the compromises needed to reach a permanent peace agreement. Jerusalem “should not take for granted the opportunity to negotiate” such a treaty with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who has proven to be a reliable partner, Gordon said.

“Israel confronts an undeniable reality: It cannot maintain military control of another people indefinitely. Doing so is not only wrong but a recipe for resentment and recurring instability,” Gordon said. “It will embolden extremists on both sides, tear at Israel’s democratic fabric and feed mutual dehumanization.”

Delivering the keynote address at the Haaretz newspaper’s Israel Conference on Peace, Gordon reiterated Obama’s position that a final-status agreement should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed land swaps.

That poo poo is packed full with dogwhistles and nonsense and offers the Israelis approximately nothing, also

quote:

The administration is aware that Israel is facing threats on several fronts and Obama remains committed to Israel’s security, he said, speaking on the day that Israel launched Operation Protective Edge to counter rocket fire from the Hamas-run Gaza Strip. Indeed, mere hours before Gordon addressed the conference, hundreds of participants were forced to quickly evacuate the event hall and enter a safe room after an alert signaled a missile approaching Tel Aviv. After about 10 minutes, participants returned to the hall and the conference resumed.

For a guy to sit there and tell people actively under rocket fire that they should acquiesce to that life forever until it finally kills all of them is pretty darn gauche. For the White House coordinator for the Middle East to do it is outright absurd. And that's not even getting into the unbelievable hostility shown by forcing the Israelis to have to talk with John Kerry all the time.

E: I should mention for clarity that an uncategorized request to 'return to the '67 borders', as Gordon pushed, includes surrendering Jerusalem, which the Obama administration is currently being sued in front of the Supreme Court for because they won't acknowledge it's even part of Israel right now. Telling a country their capital isn't even theirs strikes me as a touch hostile.

Snowdens Secret fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jul 13, 2014

krispykremessuck
Jul 22, 2005

unlike most veterans and SA members $10 is not a meaningful expenditure for me

I'm gonna have me a swag Bar-B-Q

I get you're one of the chosen so you're operating under israel being established by heavenly mandate and all, but theres a huge leap from where we are now where the US isn't exactly playing with the kid gloves with Israel and "openly hostile"

to say the least they aren't credibly threatening to yank support and until something like that does happen I'd say you couldn't call any interaction between the US and Israel particularly hostile

jammin benyamin and BHO not gettin along and people in the admin just saying what everyone else is thinking (because they're not really aware of the root issues, sure) isn't "openly hostile", and neither is taking israel to task for basically not trying very hard (I don't blame them, personally, but if I were god-king of israel I'd smash palestine thoroughly). but either way the whole situation is gay and I really hope the plutonium japan is missing ends up delivered to bethlehem

suck my dick yahweh whatever yolo

Snowdens Secret
Dec 29, 2008
Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.


The Executive only has some control over the funding side of support, Congress's power of the purse takes precedence in this case. It's not like we're backing them up with airstrikes, or even putting our own AA systems in play like we did in '91. Excluding direct military action the most concrete thing the executive has to offer comes in the form of the UN veto power. Beyond that it's speeches and rhetoric, and that hasn't been friendly. (E: and stuff like treaties / embargos to keep Iran from getting the A-bomb, which, well...)

I mean yes we're not straight-up bombing Tel Aviv ourselves, but we're not bombing Moscow either and I wouldn't put them in the 'support / not hostile to' column

Speaking of Congress and power of the purse:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140628/DEFREG04/306280020/Congress-Moves-Halt-Palestinian-Funding

quote:

WASHINGTON — The US Congress is targeting the Palestine Authority (PA) with a cutoff of funds unless US President Barack Obama can justify how continued support to Ramallah advances national security needs.

Moves by both houses of Congress to terminate two decades of economic and security assistance come in response to the June 2 establishment of a new Fatah-led consensus government backed by Hamas, a US-declared terrorist organization. The House Appropriations Committee on Tuesday approved a 2015 foreign operations bill that bars aid to the PA from some $440 million in proposed funding. The Senate’s version of its 2015 foreign operations bill, which includes similar language barring funding to the PA, was approved by the Senate Appropriations Committee on June 19.

Unlike previous years, when the House banned funding for a government over which Hamas “exercises undue influence,” this year’s language targets any type of power-sharing government “that results from an agreement with Hamas.” It also imposes strict conditions under which Obama can waive the funding ban. According to language approved last week, Obama must not only certify that the new government recognizes Israel, renounces violence and commits to honor previous agreements, but that it acknowledges Israel as “a Jewish state.”

“Funding for the Palestinians is off the table until it is clear that the unity government is committed to peace and security,” said Rep. Kay Granger, R-Texas, chairwoman of the House Appropriations subcommittee.

While Senate appropriators — like their House colleagues — challenged Obama to justify conditions under which funding restrictions should be waived, they allowed the president greater leeway for exercising waiver rights.

Snowdens Secret fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jul 13, 2014

krispykremessuck
Jul 22, 2005

unlike most veterans and SA members $10 is not a meaningful expenditure for me

I'm gonna have me a swag Bar-B-Q

Snowdens Secret posted:

The Executive only has some control over the funding side of support, Congress's power of the purse takes precedence in this case. It's not like we're backing them up with airstrikes, or even putting our own AA systems in play like we did in '91. Excluding direct military action the most concrete thing the executive has to offer comes in the form of the UN veto power. Beyond that it's speeches and rhetoric, and that hasn't been friendly.

I mean yes we're not straight-up bombing Tel Aviv ourselves, but we're not bombing Moscow either and I wouldn't put them in the 'support / not hostile to' column

Speaking of Congress and power of the purse:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140628/DEFREG04/306280020/Congress-Moves-Halt-Palestinian-Funding

I am very well-aware of how the appropriations system works bud, but thanks for the lesson. I disagree with you because I don't have vested interests in Israel, not because I don't understand nuance.

Snowdens Secret
Dec 29, 2008
Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.


krispykremessuck posted:

I am very well-aware of how the appropriations system works bud, but thanks for the lesson. I disagree with you because I don't have vested interests in Israel, not because I don't understand nuance.

Ok, fine, but you can't say the administration isn't actively hostile just because it hasn't cut off funding it can't cut off. Right now they're trying to press Israel into negotiating with Hamas, a US-recognized terrorist organization. What was the last thing this administration did actively in support of Israel?

Whip Slagcheek
Sep 21, 2008

Finally
The Gasoline And Dynamite
Will Light The Sky
For The Night




Allow them to continue existing? :troll:

Mustang
Jun 18, 2006

:thunk:
Have you considered not attending the Captain's Career Course?
:thunk:


When was the last time Israel did anything that benefited US national interests?

They're a country of 6 million and their ethnic lobby is by far the most powerful, if you criticize anything Israel does you get labeled as antisemitic. This is bad for both Israeli and American national interests.

Whip Slagcheek
Sep 21, 2008

Finally
The Gasoline And Dynamite
Will Light The Sky
For The Night




We gotta be careful not to light the signal for the IIDF to come running in from D&D to defend Israel.

Nostalgia4Butts
Jun 1, 2006

WHERE MY HOSE DRINKERS AT

Whip Slagcheek posted:

We gotta be careful not to light the signal for the IIDF to come running in from D&D to defend Israel.

We have Shim as our dark knight to protect us

EBB
Feb 15, 2005

What, Me Worry?


PLANES CURE TOWERS posted:

We have Shim as our dark knight to protect us

He's the poster we need, but not the one we deserve.

Mortabis
Jul 8, 2010


Mustang posted:

When was the last time Israel did anything that benefited US national interests?

The first recent thing that comes to mind is destroying Syria's nuclear program in 2007, but there are plenty of other examples.

quote:

They're a country of 6 million and their ethnic lobby is by far the most powerful, if you criticize anything Israel does you get labeled as antisemitic. This is bad for both Israeli and American national interests.

No, their "ethnic lobby" is a minor detail as to why Congress more or less unanimously supports Israel. That comes much more from the fact that by and large the American people support Israel. Which is sensible because it's the only country in the region with even a vague semblance of human rights.

Whip Slagcheek
Sep 21, 2008

Finally
The Gasoline And Dynamite
Will Light The Sky
For The Night




Vice (yeah, I know. Shut the gently caress up.) did a pretty cool segment on American support for Israel and showed that a ton of it stems from right wing evangelicals cheerleading the apocalypse, to the point that they're raising more money than AIPAC.

Courthouse
Jul 23, 2013


Snowdens Secret posted:

Ok, fine, but you can't say the administration isn't actively hostile just because it hasn't cut off funding it can't cut off. Right now they're trying to press Israel into negotiating with Hamas, a US-recognized terrorist organization. What was the last thing this administration did actively in support of Israel?

There is a marked difference between "less supportive" and "hostile". The only thing you could accuse the US administration of is making fruitless attempts to get two intransigent sides to stop killing each other over stupid poo poo, instead of blindly supporting one side. Up until the point where the President puts actual, real, pressure on Israel to unilaterally withdraw to the '67 borders, or starts selling Abrams to Arabs, calling the US hostile is horseshit.

At worst you can accuse it of trying to be neutral when no on the ground viable neutral position exists. Which may or may not end up being harmful to the perceived interests of the state of Israel, but is not the same as being hostile. Thinking Jerusalem does dumb or counterproductive poo poo is not a hostile act.

That said, a lot of the peace initiatives coming out lately are dumb. You don't negotiate during a firefight you will win, and thinking Israel would just erodes your position as a mediator.


quote:

No, their "ethnic lobby" is a minor detail as to why Congress more or less unanimously supports Israel. That comes much more from the fact that by and large the American people support Israel. Which is sensible because it's the only country in the region with even a vague semblance of human rights.

And the common yank just cares sooo much about democracy and human rights in some loving bumfuckistan desert. Grassroots support it is. Warms the heart.

orange juche
Mar 14, 2012





Courthouse posted:

And the common yank just cares sooo much about democracy and human rights in some loving bumfuckistan desert. Grassroots support it is. Warms the heart.

The spice oil must flow :unsmigghh:

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007


We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.



I'm going to come right out and say it. Isreal is a fascist state that only gets away with what it does because of guilt tripping countries about the holocaust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0CulhsQkTA

Mike-o
Dec 25, 2004

Now I'm in your room
And I'm in your bed




Grimey Drawer

Courthouse posted:

And the common yank just cares sooo much about democracy and human rights in some loving bumfuckistan desert. Grassroots support it is. Warms the heart.

Is this supposed to make us feel bad or something?

shyduck
Oct 3, 2003




Loving Africa Chaps posted:

I'm going to come right out and say it. Isreal is a fascist state that only gets away with what it does because of guilt tripping countries about the holocaust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0CulhsQkTA
Holy poo poo that bitch got owned

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005





I haven't seen that video in years, but it's much like the sovereign citizen getting tased. I watch it and enjoy it every time.

EBB
Feb 15, 2005

What, Me Worry?


:qq: My feelings!
:fuckoff: My parents.

Tiny Timbs
Sep 6, 2008



I think that's the hardest anyone got owned in the history of the planet

Like I'm surprised that chick didn't die on the spot

krispykremessuck
Jul 22, 2005

unlike most veterans and SA members $10 is not a meaningful expenditure for me

I'm gonna have me a swag Bar-B-Q

trap sprung :can:

Whip Slagcheek
Sep 21, 2008

Finally
The Gasoline And Dynamite
Will Light The Sky
For The Night




Loving Africa Chaps posted:

I'm going to come right out and say it. Isreal is a fascist state that only gets away with what it does because of guilt tripping countries about the holocaust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0CulhsQkTA

Lmao. I've never seen this video before. poo poo owned hard. You can just see that retarded bitches world crumbling around her as this dude tells her to shut the gently caress up about something that has nothing to do with the current political situation.

:qq: But I suffered under the nazi regime

:what:

joat mon
Oct 15, 2009

I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.


Whip Slagcheek posted:

Vice (yeah, I know. Shut the gently caress up.) did a pretty cool segment on American support for Israel and showed that a ton of it stems from right wing evangelicals cheerleading the apocalypse, to the point that they're raising more money than AIPAC.

The rest of the support is from older Americans who associate Israel with the plucky underdog fighting for their existence who didn't take no poo poo from the Arab bullies in the '60s and '70s. Now that it's bullies fighting for livingspace, the associations don't match up with those positive archetypes as well.

VVVVV
e: And people who like them as proxies, to kick some post-9/11 mooslim rear end.

joat mon fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jul 14, 2014

Snowdens Secret
Dec 29, 2008
Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/161387/americans-sympathies-israel-match-time-high.aspx



Unless you think "far-right evangelicals" + "the elderly who never watch the news" add up to 64% of the population, these theories don't really hold any water. And if you do think that, the election results of the past 8 years or so must really confound you.

E: don't worry guys it's not anti-Semitism, just need to beat some Jews

Snowdens Secret fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jul 14, 2014

Zeroisanumber
Oct 23, 2010


Nap Ghost

I'm pretty unique in that I've just stopped giving much of a poo poo about the situation anymore. I have a nebulous feeling that the two sides should come to some sort of agreement or another, but Israel isn't interested and the Palestinians aren't in any position to run a country no matter what shape it takes after a deal is hacked out. As a country, I think that our alliance with Israel is more trouble than it's worth, but I feel that way about NATO too so that's not exactly unique.

It's another grinding, depressing, unsolvable mess of blood and poo poo, and frankly as long as our people aren't getting ground up in it I don't feel a whole hell of a lot of pressure to do more than make a show of trying to help. Which from what I can tell is the same policy that the FedGov has been pursuing since Bush the First gave up on it back in 1992.

I suppose we could solve everything by just dropping the bombs, but I don't want to be thought of as singling one particular group of shitheads when there are so many deserving people, so we should drop the bombs on everyone equally.

Kung Fu Fist Fuck
Aug 9, 2009


palestinians are vermin that need to be exterminated. its too bad we will never let the jews do what must be done

psydude
Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


Snowdens Secret posted:

E: don't worry guys it's not anti-Semitism, just need to beat some Jews

I think this is the root of the problem: people keep wanting to paint it as a religious/ethnic conflict, which really glosses over the actual issues there.

psydude fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jul 14, 2014

OMFG PTSD LOL PBUH
Sep 9, 2001


Barry Hussein O and the rest of his flying monkeys from the palace hate the current Israeli government more than they hate the GOP.

Now, they're ineffectual at actually doing anything about it, but they're classic libtard anti-Israel dummies with all the subtlety of a swastika on a yarmulke. Their ability to do much stops at the UN and at the bully pulpit and minor administrata, but trust me if the chimp in chief could slap on a Fez and grind out some late '30's German pop music on his organ grinder I'm sure he would.

Luckily the U.S. largely loves Israel so even with a hulked up silver back of a First Lady trying to get kids to do preacher curls in the rose garden, the HNIC of the off-White House still has to send tribute to the masters of shekels, and minority owners of the Supreme Court.

But these are mostly spats between governments. The people of Israel and America love each other generally- and the entire world except for ineffectual D&D types and you people with "consciences" hate Palestinians for being the sub humans they are.

The funniest thing to me is that the right of return leaves a viable avenue for complete political change inside the Jewish state if there truly is a corrupted and terrible government working in the name of the Jewish state. There is no shortage of ultra liberal and highly effective Jewish politicians in this world, or even Israel for that matter. It turns out that people getting shot at with rockets are cool with blowing up Sand creatures and their crotch spawn in retaliation. I'd say we'll do it for all eternity but demographics and economics are very much on the sons and daughters of Abrahams side here.

Palestinians are the new David, and David leveled up and unlocked his Goliath ability.

:v:

shyduck
Oct 3, 2003




It's because we associate Israel with Jews and Jewish comedians that we like, and we don't want to see harm to them because Mel Brooks is funny, and the Palestinians are just brown people

psydude
Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


Russia may have gotten its Gulf of Tonkin.

quote:

Russia on Sunday accused Ukraine of lobbing a shell over the border and killing a Russian civilian and warned of “irreversible consequences,” in a sharp escalation of rhetoric that raised fears of a Russian invasion in Ukraine’s east.

. . .

Russian officials summoned the Ukrainian charge d’affaires to the Foreign Ministry in Moscow to protest the civilian’s death. The Russians say it occurred when the Ukrainian army shelled Russia’s Rostov region, hitting a residential building. Two other people were injured, authorities said.

“We need to use precision weapons, like Israel’s, to destroy those who launched the bomb,” the deputy speaker of Russia’s upper house of parliament, Yevgeny Bushmin, told the state-run RIA Novosti news service.

. . .

It was not immediately possible to confirm either side’s account, and Ukrainian officials did not have an explanation for why, in the fog of war, they could be certain that a stray shell had not hit the Russian side. Russian officials also offered no evidence that the shell was indeed of Ukrainian military provenance.

Full Battle Rattle
Aug 29, 2009

As long as the times refuse to change, we're going to make a hell of a racket.


Ah yes, like those wonderful Israelis everyone's always on about. It's weird to see someone use that as their moral frame of reference.

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




I never understood the point behind yanking in the reigns on Israel. gently caress the Palestinians. If they want that god drat sand so much then let them earn it the American way. Wiping out who ever is currently living there. And if the Israelis launch another 6 day jaunt to clean house, let them rebuild Solomon's temple.

Its like no one wants this poo poo to be over.

"Oh hey, we could stop this bullshit right quick but eh... gently caress it. Lets intervene and tell everyone to play nice. Since thats worked out for the last couple thousand years."

Great idea.

Zeroisanumber
Oct 23, 2010


Nap Ghost

Genocide Tendency posted:

gently caress the Palestinians. If they want that god drat sand so much then let them earn it the American way.

If reports of Jew hate in France are any indication, in a few years they could even follow the same playbook.

psydude
Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


Genocide Tendency posted:

I never understood the point behind yanking in the reigns on Israel.

Because we don't want them overdoing it to the point of sparking another war with people who can actually hit back or pissing off the Arabs we use to kill other Arabs (see: Israel's threat of unilateral action complicating efforts to bring the Arab League into the Coalition during the Gulf War).

psydude fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Jul 14, 2014

Zeris
Apr 15, 2003

Quality posting direct from my brain to your face holes.

Bergdahl may return to active duty today.

WLC orders? GCM ceremony? Sitting the DLAB for urdu?

EBB
Feb 15, 2005

What, Me Worry?


Hopefully not planning another on-base shooting spree?

bloops
Dec 30, 2010

Thanks Ape Pussy!


http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/14/us/bowe-bergdahl-active-duty/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Bergdahl returns to duty.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

psydude
Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


In an unexpected, but in hindsight totally foreseeable turn of events, Hamas has apparently started using drones, some of which may be armed.

  • Locked thread