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orange juche
Mar 14, 2012





Obama Africanus posted:



Name one loving ally in the history of ever who hasn't sold technology to the Chinese.

I'm dead goddamn serious. Hell we get in the same game in the U.S. Private companies love blowing off the law and sending poo poo to China they "shouldn't." Welcome to the drawbacks of free and open societies and reliable and cheap lines of international communications and transportation.

Israel is our bulldog on a tenuous leash in the region, and our universal arming of the Middle East has been more destabilizing many times over when compared to the exploits of the Israelis and their quirky modern Gaza problems.

You don't seem to "get" the long arc of anything, let alone the history of American intervention in the region.

The worst loving ally to have in the Middle East is the United States.

Step one in the problem is admitting you have a problem- and in the spirit of that, perhaps we should review the long term security benefits of the Military Sales Jamboree in the region we're having in exchange for short term profits to our MIC, and extremely short lived goodwill from dubiously rational state and non state actors.

But hahahahahaha hahahahaha. I'll drink NyQuil and Boxed wine while building a pillow fort in Vas's basement before we ever have a moment where we question the "common sense" of our middle eastern "strategies" (And I can't put quotes around this hard enough),

No matter what happens, ultimately there are too many people, too many guns, not enough livable land, and not enough water and food. Give poo poo enough time, and one group is going to have to destroy the other as a separate and competitive force. Either this will happen through assimilation of one culture and peoples into the other, or one will become a footnote to history like the Iroquois or say, Sioux.

Human kind hasn't got the best history of assimilation however, particularly when it comes to these plucky motherfuckers on both sides.

In my opinion Our worst "allies" by far are France and Germany. And personally I love those smelly Muslim hating Frogs myself, and I'll never find myself comfortable with the Germans.

Ever.

I'm serious though, if you want a terrible goddamn Ally in the Middle East, the United States is your man. We'll happily arm your people to the teeth, spread about the blackbowder, Chuck a CALCM or Tomahawk, and watch the sands burn while laughing maniacally.


I loving love America.

I missed the gently caress out of you man, welcome back. It's time to clean the D&D out of Current Events.

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OMFG PTSD LOL PBUH
Sep 9, 2001


Casimir Radon posted:

Israel is pretty much the shittiest friend you could have with the possible exception of Saudi Arabia.

South Korea until about 15 years ago wants to have a chat. You know much about the history of the ROK? How about our old Allies the Iranians. Hell they still have tons of the planes we gave them!

And we quite sincerely don't have "friends" at this level. It's a unipolar world, and we got that pole baby. Oh baby have we got that pole. America is snail trailing the gently caress outta that pole while we feature dance for the first half of the 21st century. Here's hoping our tits hold up for the long haul.

OMFG PTSD LOL PBUH fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Jul 31, 2014

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007


We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.



Mustang posted:

gently caress Israel. gently caress Palestine. gently caress the Middle East.

Agreed

So current world round up
pre:
Middle east   - 420 do a sectarian violence eryday
Africa        - Ebola
South America - nations defaulting
Europe        - Russia 2: soviet harder
South Asia    - gang rape and taliban
Asia          - anime

OMFG PTSD LOL PBUH
Sep 9, 2001


Meanwhile, at the legion of doom...

iyaayas01
Feb 19, 2010

Perry'd


Obama Africanus posted:

South Korea until about 15 years ago wants to have a chat. You know much about the history of the ROK?

Pre-democratic South Korea didn't actively work to subvert our interests at every turn. They were dominated by complete authoritarian assholes who thought nothing of slaughtering some of their own people to stay in power, but as long as you don't try to gently caress with me I don't really give a poo poo what you do to your own people.

Israel actively tries to constantly gently caress with us.

That said the rest of what you said is spot on, with the possible exception of the Colonial Club being the closest thing we have to permanent friends or at least allies.

Oh, and it's not a unipolar world anymore.

Genocide Tendency
Dec 24, 2009

I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.




Loving Africa Chaps posted:


So current world round up
pre:
Middle east   - 420 do a sectarian violence eryday
Africa        - Ebola
South America - nations defaulting
Europe        - Russia 2: soviet harder
South Asia    - gang rape and taliban
Asia          - anime

USA USA USA!!

OMFG PTSD LOL PBUH
Sep 9, 2001


iyaayas01 posted:

Pre-democratic South Korea didn't actively work to subvert our interests at every turn. They were dominated by complete authoritarian assholes who thought nothing of slaughtering some of their own people to stay in power, but as long as you don't try to gently caress with me I don't really give a poo poo what you do to your own people.

Israel actively tries to constantly gently caress with us.

That said the rest of what you said is spot on, with the possible exception of the Colonial Club being the closest thing we have to permanent friends or at least allies.

Oh, and it's not a unipolar world anymore.

These things Israel does, they're much less to gently caress us, and more to benefit them. Which is what nations, even allies, do. Let's not kid ourselves here.

And it's absolutely a unipolar world my friend, and we're grinding the gently caress out of that pole ATM. I didn't say it was our pole though. On a long enough timeline Asian Lilly or Latin Spyce could be next on the main stage boys, don't forget to tip your hostess!

Remember, theres always a fat greasy miser of a manager at the club dealing molly and determining which lovely lady is working the main stage and who has to spend 14 years grinding that weird afghan in the corner booth.

China isn't a world power, no matter what the editorial board of The Economist says, and Russia is quite literally less stable than 6 months before the wall came down. In fact let me skip to the point: The BRIC myth is bullshit, and I'm not getting high enough today to expound further right now.

The EU is going to have it's history written as something akin to the greatest of Greek tragedies/comedies. The Germans will make a hilarious new word for it after their next foray into continental dominance.

Any nation state in Africa? Hahahah.

If the kingdom of Saud falls in the mid term then all of humanity gets a trip back to the Stone Age that the people who built up the entire Arabian peninsula have felt forever. That could be a loving weird outcome, def high on the doofer scale, that's for sure.

Meanwhile, in the midst of what we all internalize as apocalyptic defense cuts we still outpace our adversaries in military capability in any measurable term, not just in marginal terms either: by orders of magnitude, actually.

This world is unipolar as gently caress, and it's got a past her prime bipolar stripper with a drug problem grinding it out to white snake on the one pole the worlds got though.

OMFG PTSD LOL PBUH
Sep 9, 2001


P.S. I loving love America and hope to live to see the smoke trails of peacekeeper missiles rise high into the sky before we all wind up getting a million degree sun tan. And honestly I hope we have a nuclear option akin to Israels "operation Samson" protocols. You know, gently caress it- take it all down with us.

Me saying we are lol levels of more powerful militarily than the rest if the world isn't me ignoring the obvious practical problems we face, just trying to keep this thing in the abstract when we start talking about nation states like chess pieces and poo poo.

Courthouse
Jul 23, 2013


Snowdens Secret posted:

Is this the Jon Stewart "Because the Israelis have the good sense to build bomb shelters to shelter themselves from bombs instead of shelter their bombs and die topside, they're being totally unfair" argument?

That is not how that argument goes, and you know that. It's a question of measured and proportional response. If a large man comes at you with a knife and you bash him over the head with a lead pipe, you were justified, if a toddler comes at you with a knife and you do the same it was not justified. Why? Because the toddler, regardless of being armed with the very same knife and burning intent to harm you, simply did not pose that big of an actual threat. You have alternatives and freedom of choice in how you handdle the toddler, you can poke him with the led pipe so he falls over or something.

In the case of Palestine it's quite simple. Israel has the clear upper hand. The jews are not about to be driven into the sea, or anything else justifying desperate measures. Israel has a range of options from do nothing (bad) to nuke gaza (also bad), and in that bag of options they have the privilege to choose which response to take. It seems to many of us that the current response of blowing up hundreds of palestinians for every jew that eats it is neither a measured and justifiable response, nor does it seem to be one that leads to Israel being in a better position after having conducted it.

OMFG PTSD LOL PBUH
Sep 9, 2001


Also let me be the first to say that the term "Jewish Troll" is redundancies ultimate triumph over the English language.

Casimir Radon
Aug 1, 2008




Saturn889 posted:

Ventura's a dick and always talk out of his rear end. See any O&A clip with Jimmy Norton arguing with him. He resorts to disagreement by calling people "patriots" sarcastically.

Also, from the clips I've heard of Chris Kyle describing the incident, I would believe him - guess we will never know.
On his Conspiracy Theory show he spent one episode making the case that HAARP changes the weather. Then tried to make it sound like the people running the place were conspiring to keep a "Navy Man" out so he couldn't learn the truth. In reality he was told to come back during normal visiting hours.

joat mon
Oct 15, 2009

I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.


Courthouse posted:

That is not how that argument goes, and you know that. It's a question of measured and proportional response. If a large man comes at you with a knife and you bash him over the head with a lead pipe, you were justified, if a toddler comes at you with a knife and you do the same it was not justified. Why? Because the toddler, regardless of being armed with the very same knife and burning intent to harm you, simply did not pose that big of an actual threat. You have alternatives and freedom of choice in how you handdle the toddler, you can poke him with the led pipe so he falls over or something.

In the case of Palestine it's quite simple. Israel has the clear upper hand. The jews are not about to be driven into the sea, or anything else justifying desperate measures. Israel has a range of options from do nothing (bad) to nuke gaza (also bad), and in that bag of options they have the privilege to choose which response to take. It seems to many of us that the current response of blowing up hundreds of palestinians for every jew that eats it is neither a measured and justifiable response, nor does it seem to be one that leads to Israel being in a better position after having conducted it.

The Western ideal of proportionality, if it has ever applied in the real world, doesn't apply here.
The Sumerian ideal of an eye for an eye is an anachronism from the mythological past.
This is tribal honor warfare. This is the Chicago way.

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007


We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.



joat mon posted:

The Western ideal of proportionality, if it has ever applied in the real world, doesn't apply here.
The Sumerian ideal of an eye for an eye is an anachronism from the mythological past.
This is tribal honor warfare. This is the Chicago way.

Bibi sighed as he drew his katana

Courthouse
Jul 23, 2013


joat mon posted:

The Western ideal of proportionality, if it has ever applied in the real world, doesn't apply here.
The Sumerian ideal of an eye for an eye is an anachronism from the mythological past.
This is tribal honor warfare. This is the Chicago way.

Except, as I loving said in that part you just quoted, they are failing at both western ideals/samurai honour/whatever and tribal thunderdome warfare. Israel is neither gaining the moral high ground, nor wholesale removing the palestinians. Either they go full out reconciliation, or full on takeover and ouster. loving around in some imaginary middle ground where you kill enough palestinians to ensure they will all hate you and want to launch more rockets, but not enough that you actually stop them from firing said rockets, gets you loving nowhere but deeper into the quagmire.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005



Sounds like a Jewish marriage.

joat mon
Oct 15, 2009

I am the master of my lamp;
I am the captain of my tub.


Courthouse posted:

Except, as I loving said in that part you just quoted, they are failing at both western ideals/samurai honour/whatever and tribal thunderdome warfare. Israel is neither gaining the moral high ground, nor wholesale removing the palestinians. Either they go full out reconciliation, or full on takeover and ouster. loving around in some imaginary middle ground where you kill enough palestinians to ensure they will all hate you and want to launch more rockets, but not enough that you actually stop them from firing said rockets, gets you loving nowhere but deeper into the quagmire.

It's not Last Samurai style Hollywood Honor, either. This is the 'honor' of honor killings. Annihilation and takeover isn't the end state. Debasement and humiliation is the end state. If there's no-one left to be degraded or shamed, you haven't won.

e: To be clear, this applies to both sides.

joat mon fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Jul 31, 2014

hypnophant
Oct 19, 2012



That's the d&d idea of proportionality, but it's not what proportionality means in a law of war sense. Proportionality just means you don't use more force than required to achieve your military objective. So if a building is being used to store weapons, you can blow up the building, but you can't blow up the whole neighborhood just for funsies. It's not some "code of honor" bullshit where you can't use tanks just because your opponent hasn't advanced past the stone age

chemosh6969
Jul 3, 2004

code:
cat /dev/null > /etc/professionalism

I am in fact a massive asswagon.
Do not let me touch computer.


Looks like D&D is in full force here.

Eugene V. Dubstep
Oct 4, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 4072 days!


chemosh6969 posted:

Looks like D&D is in full force here.

Nah, so far I haven't seen Hamas being compared to a woman hitting a swarthy Jewish rapist with her purse.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

This is why we have orders, general.

Obama Africanus posted:

These things Israel does, they're much less to gently caress us, and more to benefit them. Which is what nations, even allies, do. Let's not kid ourselves here.

Yeah but the things israel does that benefit the US, they would do regardless of whether we paid them. It's not like they would just stop bombing nuclear facilities just because we stopped paying them. No sense paying them and giving them the diplomatic cover, just let em do their thing and keep the cash for ourselves.

Full Battle Rattle
Aug 29, 2009

As long as the times refuse to change, we're going to make a hell of a racket.


Cleanse everything in the flames of war.

moosepoop
Mar 9, 2007

GET SWOLE


Full Battle Rattle posted:

Cleanse everything in the flames of war.

Is this really too much to ask for?

Larry Parrish
Jul 9, 2012



I thought this was a thread for circlejerking about how everyone ever, including ourselves, are really terrible and mismanaged countries who gently caress up everything, not legit garbage debate about why isn't israel's military being charged with warcrimes when nobody in the UN or NATO really seems to actually care

US Berder Patrol
Jul 11, 2006

I joined the Navy and all I got was this hideous paunch.


I went to Israel on vacation and it was pretty nice. Unlike all the places in the region the military sent me, they had really good food that didn't gently caress my guts up and you could drink and hit on girls and not worry about being blown up or kidnapped by a terrorist, and it didn't seem like the whole place ran on slave labor, trafficked Russian prostitutes and Filipino cover bands. This experience is what informs my perspective on the current conflict, so gently caress Hamas, they would just ruin the god drat place anyway BURN THIS MOTHERFUCKER DOWN IDF

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

by Pragmatica


So now that ISIS executed 1500 Iraqi PWs, is the Iraqi Army actually likely to stand fast? Surrender is clearly not an option.

Bolow
Feb 27, 2007



Frosted Flake posted:

So now that ISIS executed 1500 Iraqi PWs, is the Iraqi Army actually likely to stand fast? Surrender is clearly not an option.

Hahah gently caress no, they're going to run for the loving hills.

Best Friends
Nov 4, 2011



Frosted Flake posted:

So now that ISIS executed 1500 Iraqi PWs, is the Iraqi Army actually likely to stand fast? Surrender is clearly not an option.

Sun Tzu figured out many thousands of years ago that if you murder your captives, less guys surrender to you.

In Iraq, neither side of the equation has figured that out. It's incredible.

EBB
Feb 15, 2005

What, Me Worry?


"Iraqi deserter? No way my man, I am a refugee from Syria. I came here to enjoy the Islamic paradise. What's that about my AK? I took it off a dead dude. In Syria. You know, because I'm Syrian."

Mustang
Jun 18, 2006


Have you considered not attending the Captain's Career Course?



DownByTheWooter posted:

I went to Israel on vacation and it was pretty nice. Unlike all the places in the region the military sent me, they had really good food that didn't gently caress my guts up and you could drink and hit on girls and not worry about being blown up or kidnapped by a terrorist, and it didn't seem like the whole place ran on slave labor, trafficked Russian prostitutes and Filipino cover bands. This experience is what informs my perspective on the current conflict, so gently caress Hamas, they would just ruin the god drat place anyway BURN THIS MOTHERFUCKER DOWN IDF

Being critical of Israel doesn't mean you're a fan of Hamas. Palestinians are loving retarded. They've assassinated a Jordanian king and started two civil wars in neighboring states and effectively burned every bridge they had.

I couldn't care less what happens to the people in the Middle East. My beef with Israel is the fact that we pump billions into a country of 6 million that doesn't give a poo poo about American national interests, which are the only interests that matter. gently caress Israels national interests, if they want our support and money then Israel shouldnt be doing anything to harm American interests, like selling technology to the Chinese.

Let's start selling Israeli military secrets to their neighbors and see how they like it.

Israel should be bending over backwards to make us happy.

monkeytennis
Apr 26, 2007




Toilet Rascal

Frosted Flake posted:

So now that ISIS executed 1500 Iraqi PWs, is the Iraqi Army actually likely to stand fast? Surrender is clearly not an option.

I don't think they'll do anything different, from those videos the only thing I can conclude is that they're pretty relaxed about lining up and being shot like good boys.

Courthouse
Jul 23, 2013


monkeytennis posted:

I don't think they'll do anything different, from those videos the only thing I can conclude is that they're pretty relaxed about lining up and being shot like good boys.

If you got captured by crazies and the worst thing that happened was you getting a bullet in the head, you'd be pretty relieved too.

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers


Loving Africa Chaps posted:

Biden sighed as he drew his katana

KirbyKhan
Mar 20, 2009



Soiled Meat

Israel seems to be pretty good about murdering browns. If that ain't our national interests, then I don't know what is.

Benagain
Oct 10, 2007

I WILL DERAIL ANY THREAD TO DEFEND PEOPLE WHO CHEAT ON THEIR SPOUSES BECAUSE I THINK THEY CAN DO NO WRONG. DO NOT LISTEN TO ME. I AM FUCKING STUPID.


Fun Shoe

My friend always said the sketchiest place he'd ever been was a Russian ghetto in Israel, which makes a lot of sense.

vains
May 26, 2004


KirbyKhan posted:

Israel seems to be pretty good about murdering browns. If that ain't our national interests, then I don't know what is.

The term "murdering" implies that Israel's actions in Gaza are unjust.

Best Friends
Nov 4, 2011



"Welp, the savages on the reservation are acting up again. And for some reason they keep electing a nihilistic terrorist mafia to represent them. This must have no relation to them having no country, no jobs, and no future. We better step up the blockade and make sure normal successful life remains impossible."

Loving Africa Chaps
Dec 3, 2007


We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.



I've done the math and the best option is to pull aid from Israel so the Arabs invade and Israel turns the Middle East into glass

Third World Reagan
May 19, 2008

Imagine four 'mechs waiting in a queue. Time works the same way.

A lot of posts in here.

Did the jews make up someone kidnapping a jew again and not back down?

chemosh6969
Jul 3, 2004

code:
cat /dev/null > /etc/professionalism

I am in fact a massive asswagon.
Do not let me touch computer.


Third World Reggin posted:

A lot of posts in here.

Did the jews make up someone kidnapping a jew again and not back down?

What would you do?

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Helldump Immunity.
Aug 2, 2013

Fuck you


I just want the whole world to burn

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