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uh
This poll is closed.
embiid 41 32.28%
wiggins 86 67.72%
Total: 127 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
  • Locked thread
EvanTH
Apr 24, 2004

i like to express my inner pain by being really boring on the phone
or just when i'm kickin it
that's me though
i'm kind of oddddddd

El Gallinero Gros posted:

Isn't a broken foot a pretty serious injury for a big man given their shelf life?

It depends on which of the 26 different bones of the foot is fractured and what the type of fracture is.

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Icy Penguigo
Nov 7, 2010

EvanTH posted:

It depends on which of the 26 different bones of the foot is fractured and what the type of fracture is.

Reports are saying it was a stress fracture of the navicular bone. Hopefully someone here knows what implications that has, I sure don't.

Deadbeat Dad
Jun 3, 2005

Kevin Pelton wrote an article for ESPN that talks about it and the big men who've had it and says he's basically hosed.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch

Deadbeat Dad posted:

Kevin Pelton wrote an article for ESPN that talks about it and the big men who've had it and says he's basically hosed.

Kevin Pelton isn't a doctor.

quote:

With appropriate physiotherapy management, most patients with a stress fracture of the navicular can make a full recovery (return to sport or full activities) in a period of 3 - 9 months. In more severe cases, recovery may take 1 year, or longer, depending on the intervention required and a range of other factors. In rare cases, some patients may experience ongoing symptoms or complications which may require further management.

That last part is important because given how tall Embiid is, the risk of complications with his feet goes up, but there's no reason he can't make a full recovery.

chunkles
Aug 14, 2005

I tell you the truth: one of you chumps will betray me

Declan MacManus posted:

That last part is important because given how tall Embiid is, the risk of complications with his feet goes up, but there's no reason he can't make a full recovery.

Sounds like a pretty awesome reason for stupid lottery teams to pass him up because they need to Win Now and can't potentially give up a season to rehab

Deadbeat Dad
Jun 3, 2005

Declan MacManus posted:

Kevin Pelton isn't a doctor.


That last part is important because given how tall Embiid is, the risk of complications with his feet goes up, but there's no reason he can't make a full recovery.

No poo poo. I don't think teams are reading the Pelton article to debate whether they pick him or not. It's insider so I haven't read it but I'm in the camp that it isn't worth it to pass up on him past number 3 or 4. A lot of people seem to be overreacting though and bringing up how he is going to turn into Yao or Big Z.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch

Deadbeat Dad posted:

No poo poo. I don't think teams are reading the Pelton article to debate whether they pick him or not. It's insider so I haven't read it but I'm in the camp that it isn't worth it to pass up on him past number 3 or 4. A lot of people seem to be overreacting though and bringing up how he is going to turn into Yao or Big Z.

I should hope not. I just don't like guys presenting themselves as authorities on injuries when they aren't medical professionals. I don't claim to know a ton about feet injuries but everything I've read would suggest that it's something he can recover from, which might be at odds with Kevin Pelton's anecdotal evidence but probably has more weight to it

Redgrendel2001
Sep 1, 2006

you literally think a person saying their NBA team of choice being better than the fucking 76ers is a 'schtick'

a literal thing you think.

Declan MacManus posted:

I should hope not. I just don't like guys presenting themselves as authorities on injuries when they aren't medical professionals. I don't claim to know a ton about feet injuries but everything I've read would suggest that it's something he can recover from, which might be at odds with Kevin Pelton's anecdotal evidence but probably has more weight to it

The medical literature that I've read says that there's only a 26% full recovery rate, but who knows.

It may not be a death sentence on his career, but it's not a good thing considering his other injury.

I'm curious as to how long medical doctors think he's had this injury. Was he beasting in workouts with this injury? It was supposedly an exam from the Cav's docs that revealed it.

Redgrendel2001 fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Jun 20, 2014

Strawberry Panda
Nov 4, 2007

Breakfast Defecting, Slow Dick Touching, Root Beer Barreling SwagVP
Isn't the point of the fear that he has a bad back and a foot injury? Like if he just had a foot injury I'm sure everyone would just figure he'd recover, but the fact that he has had 2 injuries so close together makes teams afraid they're investing in damaged goods.

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003

chunkles posted:

Sounds like a pretty awesome reason for stupid lottery teams to pass him up because they need to Win Now and can't potentially give up a season to rehab
It makes the Sixers incredibly likely to take him because they're not expecting to be in contention anytime soon.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006


Is this Heaven?
I have asked world renowned Internet Doctor swickles for a consult.

swickles
Aug 21, 2006

I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just some QB that I used to know

MourningView posted:

I have asked world renowned Internet Doctor swickles for a consult.

Howdy y'all. To TFF regulars, you know I give I overly complicated and boring explanations of injuries. To SAS proper I am the guy who gets posts in the NCAA basketball and NBA threads like twice a year. So some giant of a human being broke his foot, what all does this mean? To give a proper disclaimer: I know absolutely no specifics of the case other than what is reported in the media. Everything I say is based on likelihoods and sheer statistics. I don't pretend to know anything more than his doctors and I wouldn't second guess the treatment because I don't know any details.



Well, for one he likely has had it broken for a long time. Stress fractures often go undiagnosed, even among professional athletes for weeks or months. This is due to it being non-specific pain, but also the culture of under-reporting symptoms that is prevalent among athletes. It is reported he has a stress fracture at this time. A stress fracture can also lead to a greater fracture if ignored, but as of now that does seem to be the case. edit: Just saw that he is undergoing surgery, so yeah in all likelihood the fracture needs pinning and is more than a typical stress fracture.

The basic treatment is to not use it. If he is being treated like anyone else, first he will be evaluated for surgery. In all likelihood because it is just a stress fracture, there won't be a need. However, since I said he has likely had it for a while, they will check to make sure (by CT or MRI) that the fracturing hasn't extended into something else or result in a larger fracture that needs surgical intervention. If no surgery is needed, he will have a non-weight bearing cast for 6-8 weeks. After that they will check for pain, tenderness, probably run another scan. If all is ok, then its another 6-8 weeks to transition back into exercise and normal activity. For a guy like this I imagine a full 8-10 weeks simply because his level of normal activity is so much greater than the normal populace.

Also, speaking if normal populace, we have to remember he is not part of it. He is 7 feet and 250 pounds and I imagine his playing weight will eventually be another 30 pounds or so. The bones in the human body are made of the same stuff regardless if we are 5'2" or 7'6". Yao Ming had a shortened career because he was just so big that his frame couldn't handle it. Neither could Greg Odens. In fact, there are very few big men in the NBA who were monsters of men and were able to stay healthy. Shaq might be on of the biggest who had a long career without any significant injury. Embiid already had a stress fracture in his back and now has one in his foot. If I were a GM (and I am most certainly not) I don't think I would be super high on Embiid. There are other prospects that are much safer. (I don't follow the NBA draft super close, but all I have seen for over a year was "THIS IS THE YEAR TO TANK AND GET A SUPERSTAR!!!!!" on ESPN which means its likely wrong and Embiid is over rated from the get go...)


So yeah, he can heal and come back to full strength. It surely is possible. However, we are not talking about human beings here, we are talking about freak mutant people that we have channeled into sports instead of taking over society. We don't have much data on their ability to come back to full strength, we only have anecdotes and conventional wisdom, the latter of which doesn't look good for Embiid's future. I just hope I'm wrong because it sucks when college kids have their careers ruined before they get a shot at a contract, but hey it was probably worth the 1 year of college he had to go to!

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch

I'd like a second opinion from Randy Rand if you don't mind

Bush Did Outer Heaven
Jan 18, 2005

The Sweetest Payne
Bummer, man.

swickles
Aug 21, 2006

I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just some QB that I used to know
Just want to respond to a few random comments in the thread:


Redgrendel2001 posted:

The medical literature that I've read says that there's only a 26% full recovery rate, but who knows.

It may not be a death sentence on his career, but it's not a good thing considering his other injury.

I'm curious as to how long medical doctors think he's had this injury. Was he beasting in workouts with this injury? It was supposedly an exam from the Cav's docs that revealed the injury.

26% for full recovery is a little misleading. For one, we don't know the exact injury he has, just what is reported. Assuming that injury is correct there are various types, extremes, locations, and anatomical considerations to take into account. He could have a variant with a 98% recovery, or one with a 8% recovery.

As for how long, I found a study (from the 80's :lol:) that puts the average time from injury to diagnosis at 7 months, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was significantly shorter today. Team physicians probably poke and prod every inch of a player to assess for pain rather than simply asking "does anything hurt?" They probably palpated the skin above the navicular bone and he experienced tenderness. The player might be minimizing, or he might just think "man my feet hurt from playing basketball all day, that's normal" which to an extent is. Hell, my feet hurt after work and I am not throwing humans around like ragdolls to chase after a ball for a living.



Deadbeat Dad posted:

Kevin Pelton wrote an article for ESPN that talks about it and the big men who've had it and says he's basically hosed.



Declan MacManus posted:

Kevin Pelton isn't a doctor.


That last part is important because given how tall Embiid is, the risk of complications with his feet goes up, but there's no reason he can't make a full recovery.


He isn't, but like I said before, we don't have much data on humans who are literally in the top .000001% when it comes to height and size. These people are essentially mathematical outliers, so doing studies on them is near impossible. You would have to examine and study almost every person over 7 feet tall that has ever existed just to get close to the statistical power needed to make any reasonable conclusion about what to expect.

I guess if I have one take away point from this all is that nobody knows with any certainty what is going to happen because humans this size are rare and we haven't been able to seriously examine or study their injuries and recoveries with any kind of rigor befitting a scientific investigation.

swickles
Aug 21, 2006

I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just some QB that I used to know

Declan MacManus posted:

I'd like a second opinion from Randy Rand if you don't mind

I can help you out:

"Roll Tide, gently caress basketball."

gingerberger
Jun 20, 2014

Gotta love my Squirtle Swag
I'd be surprised if Cleveland took him now. They can't afford the PR hit if missing with number 1 picks twice in a row so they'll want to get a more sure thing, even if that sure thing has less upside.

chilihead
Nov 5, 2010

Is this real life, or is this fantasy?

gingerberger posted:

I'd be surprised if Cleveland took him now. They can't afford the PR hit if missing with number 1 picks twice in a row so they'll want to get a more sure thing, even if that sure thing has less upside.

Someone tell me a scenario where they don't take wiggins, even if it is just to trade for veteran talent. The possibility of trade happening in the top 3 is almost a sure thing now.

gingerberger
Jun 20, 2014

Gotta love my Squirtle Swag

chilihead posted:

Someone tell me a scenario where they don't take wiggins, even if it is just to trade for veteran talent. The possibility of trade happening in the top 3 is almost a sure thing now.

It probably just depends on where their brass feels like they are in terms of being competitive. After a laughably disappointing year I'd think they'd want to play for 2 years from now, hope Bennet can be salvaged into a decent 6th man and that you can build around Kyrie/Wiggins(whoever). If they trade the #1 pick for veteran talent just to get into the 7th seed in the east next year I will literally laugh out loud. (They're the Cavs; ANYTHING seems possible)

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
Thanks swickles.

RE: Shaq. Most of his injuries seemed to be due to over or under training off the court. The only time he really hurt himself on the court until his last season was the torn abdomen muscle. Which must have been pretty awful,I have had a few abdomen strains and thought I was going to die, I can't imagine tearing it.

Icy Penguigo
Nov 7, 2010

chilihead posted:

Someone tell me a scenario where they don't take wiggins, even if it is just to trade for veteran talent. The possibility of trade happening in the top 3 is almost a sure thing now.

Lots of people are saying they're high on Jabari Parker, and for whatever reason Gilbert is stuck in "win now" mode at all costs. Jabari will probably contribute more in his first season than Wiggins and still has a reasonably high ceiling/floor. Plus, the last tweener they picked didn't work out, so it's time to force someone else with no lateral quickness to play Small Forward!

I hope they take Wiggins. I fear they'll take Parker or shock us all with Exum or something dumb (not that I thinking Exum will be a bust, but he doesn't fit into the team well AND isn't the BPA)

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch

Rick posted:

Thanks swickles.

RE: Shaq. Most of his injuries seemed to be due to over or under training off the court. The only time he really hurt himself on the court until his last season was the torn abdomen muscle. Which must have been pretty awful,I have had a few abdomen strains and thought I was going to die, I can't imagine tearing it.

Most of Shaq's injuries had nothing to do with being tall and everything to do with weight/conditioning which is exceedingly rare. The only other center I can think of who never had any back/knee related stuff was Hakeem (only missed significant time due to Bill Cartwright's Elbow)

cisneros
Apr 18, 2006

Declan MacManus posted:

Most of Shaq's injuries had nothing to do with being tall and everything to do with weight/conditioning which is exceedingly rare. The only other center I can think of who never had any back/knee related stuff was Hakeem (only missed significant time due to Bill Cartwright's Elbow)

Hakeem avoided the injury plague of 7 footers by being actually 6'9".

Redgrendel2001
Sep 1, 2006

you literally think a person saying their NBA team of choice being better than the fucking 76ers is a 'schtick'

a literal thing you think.

chilihead posted:

Someone tell me a scenario where they don't take wiggins, even if it is just to trade for veteran talent. The possibility of trade happening in the top 3 is almost a sure thing now.

Kyrie won't re-sign unless they're going to "win now". Lebron will only re-sign if there's the championship possibility and someone like Exum/Love/blahblahblah in combo with Kyrie fulfills that role better in the opinion of Cavs management.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch

cisneros posted:

Hakeem avoided the injury plague of 7 footers by being actually 6'9".

I looked it up and Dikembe was actually pretty healthy with no significant injuries until he blew his knee out in '09 and retired

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

@Probballdraft
Hearing the Cavs and Jazz have discussed a swap of picks. Jazz would move up to take Parker and Cavs would likely get Favors and 5.

Well that is...why would Utah do that?!

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch

WhyteRyce posted:

@Probballdraft
Hearing the Cavs and Jazz have discussed a swap of picks. Jazz would move up to take Parker and Cavs would likely get Favors and 5.

Well that is...why would Utah do that?!

Because Kanter is the future, obvs

E: Also because the Jazz have sneaky bad management

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
I guess I haven't really thought a lot about the Jazz's moves, but I thought they put together a team with a "hey if we avoid the Lakers this team could come out of the West" chance and they seem to have assembled some talent in their rebuild. They probably could've had the 8 seed 12-13 had Kobe not sacrificed his career to drag the Lakers there instead.

Am I missing something?

birds
Jun 28, 2008


WhyteRyce posted:

@Probballdraft
Hearing the Cavs and Jazz have discussed a swap of picks. Jazz would move up to take Parker and Cavs would likely get Favors and 5.

Well that is...why would Utah do that?!

So then would the Cavs take Embiid at 5?

Ribsauce
Jul 29, 2006

Blacks in the back.
Swickles, I just want to say that write up is better than any article I have read about this injury and your posts are greatly appreciated.

Nissin Cup Nudist
Sep 3, 2011

Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land




WhyteRyce posted:

@Probballdraft
Hearing the Cavs and Jazz have discussed a swap of picks. Jazz would move up to take Parker and Cavs would likely get Favors and 5.

Well that is...why would Utah do that?!

Parker is a Mormon

Yep

Paul Zuvella
Dec 7, 2011

They probably believe Parker's religion will make him stay in SLC forever. Also that the fans will love it.

District Selectman
Jan 22, 2012

by Lowtax

DOOP posted:

Parker is a Mormon

Yep

How do I keep forgetting he's a Mormon? That makes this all make sense.

ButtWolf
Dec 30, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Its got to be avors and 5 for 1 and a sexond rounder or something at least right. Favors is pretty good. Who will play PF?

straight up brolic
Jan 31, 2007

After all, I was nice in ball,
Came to practice weed scented
Report card like the speed limit

:homebrew::homebrew::homebrew:

I wouldn't draft Embiid in the Top-10 still. Recovering from Sports injuries fucks up the other systems in your body too, from either over or under use. I have no doubt that he'll be working as hard as possible to recover, but for someone as raw as him I could see it taking a year and a half or so just for him to get back to the level he is now.

You're making a huge gamble on him being an immediate difference maker when he finally plays if you take him.

iamsosmrt
Jun 14, 2008

I'm praying every GM 1-9 listens to this advice so the Sixers can steal at 10. I wouldn't even be too mad if we missed out on Wiggins if we got one of the "next tier" guys and Embiid.

Dejan Bimble
Mar 24, 2008

we're all black friends
Plaster Town Cop

mynameisjohn posted:

I wouldn't draft Embiid in the Top-10 still. Recovering from Sports injuries fucks up the other systems in your body too, from either over or under use. I have no doubt that he'll be working as hard as possible to recover, but for someone as raw as him I could see it taking a year and a half or so just for him to get back to the level he is now.

You're making a huge gamble on him being an immediate difference maker when he finally plays if you take him.

If someone drafts Julius Randle or Marcus Smart over Embiid they should get fired immediately

Emanuel Collective
Jan 16, 2008

by Smythe
Favors is nice and all but there's a very good chance Parker or Wiggins are already better players than he'll ever be

straight up brolic
Jan 31, 2007

After all, I was nice in ball,
Came to practice weed scented
Report card like the speed limit

:homebrew::homebrew::homebrew:

I dont know it seems like one of those things that you will talk yourself into and wind up regretting. But this is all conjecture.

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Gunjin
Apr 27, 2004

Om nom nom

Declan MacManus posted:

The only other center I can think of who never had any back/knee related stuff was Hakeem (only missed significant time due to Bill Cartwright's Elbow)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar managed to avoid the big man injury plague, 7'2" but only carried 225 lb which might have helped.

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