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Matt Zerella
Oct 7, 2002


If I was CEO I'd force everyone to read a poorly formatted PDF of Settlers and have a company wide macro to search and replace America with Amerikkka.

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CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007


RICKARUS

It's Moot baby!




Methanar posted:

I'm disheartened by how many people can't separate an artist from their work either.

Okay you don't like what Scott Adams said last year. Artist output from 20 years prior is still good on its own merit.

You are really gonna do this, are you?

Tetramin
Apr 1, 2006

I'ma buck you up.


You dare disparage the good name of DILBERT??

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


Contingency posted:

I'm not sure you're getting it either. The mantra of the day is "better to pass on 19 qualified applicants than to hire one bad one." I was a vet that became a non-traditional student. I didn't fit the fresh-faced grad mold and had many companies pass on me, one recruiter telling me to my face why they weren't interested. That doesn't make me an honorary black dude by any means, but I've been on the outside looking in, and it loving sucks. If you want more disadvantaged people to succeed, you need a lot more than "let's hire us some minorities" which is a shallow C-level initiative. You need to address the core reasons why companies can't afford to allow people to catch up experience wise or learn to write professional emails (most enlisted personnel). Short of that is window dressing and a revolving door of candidates.

Vets absolutely get poo poo on in a lot of the tech industry and it is a bias of mine that I have been trying to work on. I have worked with too many vets that were crappy employees/employers and it has colored my experience. You can see me talking about it several times in this thread and others.

That being said, you choose to join the military. You do not choose your skin color. Now, we can have a conversation about how people, especially not well off people, are coerced into joining the military and all that, and that's a lot longer of a conversation, but again - you do not choose your skin color. Additionally, there are a lot more tech places out there that do prefer hiring vets, mostly the entire military industrial complex and a lot of the US government. There's not a similar scope of employers looking for Black tech workers or women tech workers.

In regards to "let's hire us some minorities" being a shallow initiative, yes, again, it is not the end all be all of a solution and we as a society need to tackle this problem, not just a few middle-managers in tech. But there's a big but there. Having people in these jobs is the goal and simply putting them there can be beneficial in aggregate for the same reasons that affirmative action is beneficial in aggregate. For the same reason that simply housing people experiencing homelessness does help solve homelessness. The socioeconomic outcomes from people having these jobs is a huge impact in and of itself.

And look, none of this is perfect. I'm not advocating that this is the solution to all the worlds problems. I am a socialist. Do not think for one second that I am saying these companies are equipped to make the world a better place. So in a sense, I am right now arguing/educating for a position that I don't want to be in. It's still really, really important that we acknowledge these problems in our industry and do what we can to make them better.

Internet Explorer fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Aug 14, 2020

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


Methanar posted:

I don't intend on apologizing for disapproving of unprofessional communications from executive leadership.

I don't even really disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but 1) you think referencing a book that talks about racism is unprofessional? and 2) it's important to understand that the concepts of what is professional/unprofessional are very much shaped by white supremacy culture and patriarchy.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


Internet Explorer posted:

I don't even really disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but 1) you think referencing a book that talks about racism is unprofessional? and 2) it's important to understand that the concepts of what is professional/unprofessional are very much shaped by white supremacy culture and patriarchy.

I think heís okay with managementís intent just not the content of the book

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Waiting for his chance

I'll admit that I'd be irritated if my employer started telling me to read White Fragility. In the absence of additional resources or recruiting tools as previously discussed in this thread, reading a book is not going to make a major contribution to dealing with the problem. Give me head count and training resources so I can develop people I hire. Give me a hiring process that obscures personal details so that whatever biases I may have won't allow me to privilege applicants with a certain sort of name. Don't come at me with a book like racism is a problem that exists at the edge and not the core. Recommending a book without any structural changes is really an announcement that the company isn't doing anything to come to grips with the problem.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


The Iron Rose posted:

Iíll just say there was a good six to eight months I sat consulting unemployed questioning whether I wanted to go back into the industry after being horribly sexually harassed by my manager. My first job had basically been nothing but a series of being sexually harassed or assaulted - by men and women - because the organization proudly advertised that it didnít have any HR despite a thousand employees and an open bar every Friday. Iíve turned down jobs because I donít want to leave the one organization Iím at now where that has yet to happen.

It's getting hard to keep up with this thread due to the speed it is moving and the complexity of the conversation, but I just wanted to say thank you for continuously sharing your story in this thread. I am sure it is informing a lot of people.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007


RICKARUS

It's Moot baby!




CLAM DOWN posted:

To anyone in this thread, please do not ever quote/refer to Scott Adams/Dilbert. He's a fragile racist lovely dumbass: https://www.themarysue.com/scott-ad...male-fragility/

I will back down on this and admit I was too harsh, I'm not blanket banning Dilbert. I would like to please ask that prior to posting/referring to Dilbert, you consider the source, and what a racist piece of poo poo Scott Adams is, and how his problematic lovely views inspired his comics. Thank you and sorry for jumping to this so harshly and quickly.

CLAM DOWN fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Aug 14, 2020

Matt Zerella
Oct 7, 2002


Zorak of Michigan posted:

I'll admit that I'd be irritated if my employer started telling me to read White Fragility. In the absence of additional resources or recruiting tools as previously discussed in this thread, reading a book is not going to make a major contribution to dealing with the problem. Give me head count and training resources so I can develop people I hire. Give me a hiring process that obscures personal details so that whatever biases I may have won't allow me to privilege applicants with a certain sort of name. Don't come at me with a book like racism is a problem that exists at the edge and not the core. Recommending a book without any structural changes is really an announcement that the company isn't doing anything to come to grips with the problem.

No that's about right for corporate activism/feminism/whateverism. They're never going to encourage people learning about the core of the issues because at the core it's always the same thing. Neoliberal capitalism and austerity. Two things they loving love.

TheBacon
Feb 8, 2012

#essereFerrari


Mustache Ride posted:

I've got a buddy that works for them. Basically it's a PC nightmare.



I am way late to this but man, this is all kinds of the wrong takeaway, and actually basically all of those things are good things. The fact you opened with a non-ironic use of "PC nightmare" is a huge red flag

Super Soaker Party!
May 4, 2006

He may be a madposter but he's OUR madposter

TheBacon posted:

I am way late to this but man, this is all kinds of the wrong takeaway, and actually basically all of those things are good things. The fact you opened with a non-ironic use of "PC nightmare" is a huge red flag

Phew good thing you pointed this out, the thread had completely ignored it! Thanks buddy!

Sickening
Jul 15, 2007

Black summer was the best summer.

Methanar posted:

You immediately went in on this conversation full throttle aggressive. You've obviously got some strong opinions but its not persuasive to immediately go on a crusade. Immediately villifying somebody doesn't actually change their mind, it just galvanizes them they're talking to somebody unreasonable.

I stated that I thought pushing a book with an obvious clickbait and controversial title was unappropriate. I don't intend on apologizing for disapproving of unprofessional communications from executive leadership. There isn't really an amount of stupid-calling that's going to change my mind on that.

The screenshot was disgusting. The lack of awareness that followed was a little shocking. I am never going to be a poster who is going to keep my cool at all times and quite frankly, neither are you.

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.




The main objection I have to the "qualified candidates" argument is that it's moving the buck. Yeah, some places are lovely at recruiting and some managers may lack resources to recruit aggressively in some ways. That doesn't mean your hands are fully tied.

For example, how many of your places of employment run credit checks on candidates before even filtering down resumes to hiring managers and pre-filter based on that (or a recruiting agency you may be working with)? That, right there, is a place to start the conversation that doesn't require resources from anyone. Point out that a trans person, woman single parent, or racial minority is more likely to run into credit trouble and rejecting candidates out of hand because they have a few negative marks on their credit is limiting your hiring pool. It's not that trans candidate's fault that their family kicked them out of their house at 17 and spent time homeless or wracking up debt to survive or better themselves. It's not that black candidate's fault that a used car lot soaked them on financing to allow them to buy a 15 year old car to get to a job because mass transit doesn't reach their residence. That woman needed to take out a loan to get her MBA to cover childcare and now she needs your help in overlooking that debt so that she can use it.

Also take a look at the language used in your listing that may discourage people from applying. For example language that implies competition can discourage groups from applying for a job due past experiences in similar roles. How many startups base their job descriptions around "fast paced" or "self starter". Basically, if you are trying to describe a culture in your job description instead of the skills you need from a candidate, you run the risk of alienating groups that have had bad experiences with similar positions. This isn't saying you need to hire someone that completely clashes with the personality types in the business, just that how you describe the "culture fit" you are want is viewed under a different lens with different groups.

If you are a hiring manager and find you aren't getting many candidates that may fall into a protected class and you haven't had a discussion with your manager or HR why this is the case, then you haven't even taken step one to help with the issue. Shrugging and going "I don't know why we aren't getting them, guess they aren't out there?" is part of the cycle that needs to be broken.

bull3964 fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Aug 14, 2020

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

Sickening posted:

The screenshot was disgusting. The lack of awareness that followed was a little shocking. I am never going to be a poster who is going to keep my cool at all times and quite frankly, neither are you.

So you're going to aggressively take everyone to task for all of their flaws and issues and demand they sort them out, but can't turn the mirror a bit and see that your methods and attitude are garbage and demand we just accept you as you are? A+ cognitive dissonance. Congrats on being a finished person.

Sickening
Jul 15, 2007

Black summer was the best summer.

AlternateAccount posted:

So you're going to aggressively take everyone to task for all of their flaws and issues and demand they sort them out, but can't turn the mirror a bit and see that your methods and attitude are garbage and demand we just accept you as you are? A+ cognitive dissonance. Congrats on being a finished person.



Did you turn off your monitor after posting that?

Bonzo
Mar 11, 2004

Just like Mama used to make it!


Bob Morales posted:

I think they just apply because they can, or have to

We had a government somebody or another try to get us to hire some vets. They gave us all these people with experience in food service and other crap like you said...nobody that was useful to us

Sure we can train someone but we donít have the time or resources. Maybe if someone showed interest in tech which nobody expressed in a cover letter.

HR was pissed because they can get a ton in WOTC credits and stuff

The problem here is rather obvious? You have a company that only hires to claim a tax incentive, and then when they do bring in people they give them no resources to learn or better themselves so that makes every else biased against them. "Why do they hire these drat fast food vets??!? They don't even know how to reset a password!"

You think if you took a Sr. Engineer and had him work the breakfast rush at McDonald's he'll be able to figure it all out with no training on the first day?

I'm not calling you out or yelling at YOU, just this whole type of situation. Its not just your company.

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

I do think everyone in this thread would absolutely agree that using credit scores for every job or any of the services that now collect vast swaths of data from every source imaginable to give you a "score" for whether or not you're a good hire are all horrible practices that absolutely need to get dumpstered immediately.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007


RICKARUS

It's Moot baby!




AlternateAccount posted:

So you're going to aggressively take everyone to task for all of their flaws and issues and demand they sort them out, but can't turn the mirror a bit and see that your methods and attitude are garbage and demand we just accept you as you are? A+ cognitive dissonance. Congrats on being a finished person.

It's not their job to persuade or convince someone not to be be racist, and their post was not what you're saying. Don't be disingenuous, please.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


AlternateAccount posted:

So you're going to aggressively take everyone to task for all of their flaws and issues and demand they sort them out, but can't turn the mirror a bit and see that your methods and attitude are garbage and demand we just accept you as you are? A+ cognitive dissonance. Congrats on being a finished person.

Being racist/misogynist is not the same as not patiently explaining to people why being racist/misogynist is a problem. Let's not pretend they are.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

Just wear the fucking mask, Bob


Whatís a credit check cost?

Are companies really spending a bunch of money to screen out applicants that early in the process?

Honey Im Homme
Sep 3, 2009



After a decade in IT I've realized I haven't really worked with many minorities at all but have experienced a whole bunch of casual racism, particular pertaining to call center locale.

That kind of seminar or training would probably be pretty useful for me as someone who probably doesn't quite understand the barriers for entry people who aren't young while men typically face. That is of course assuming it's not a heavy handed box checking exercise.

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003



Bob Morales posted:

Whatís a credit check cost?

Are companies really spending a bunch of money to screen out applicants that early in the process?

Yes, some are. It's pretty obvious that they'll be lovely to work for, but it happens.

Sickening
Jul 15, 2007

Black summer was the best summer.

Bob Morales posted:

Whatís a credit check cost?

Are companies really spending a bunch of money to screen out applicants that early in the process?

My company uses credit as a part of on-boarding. My previous job did too. They bundle these services as a way to "add value" to their services , as they are a 3rd party service my org subscribes to. All in all, I think its like 2200 per employee we put through this process. I am sure the credit check isn't free.

I remember once saying on this forum that I would never join an org that wanted to run my credit, but if I held to my convictions I might have excluded the majority of jobs out there as its that loving common now. Its just another tool to filter people if you want to. Its the same bullshit the personality tests are, just more streamlined.

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

CLAM DOWN posted:

It's not their job to persuade or convince someone not to be be racist, and their post was not what you're saying. Don't be disingenuous, please.

No, it's not disingenuous to point out that a lot of people in this thread are rabidly aggressive and confrontational, which is not helpful. "Not their job" is the same sort of bullshit as "Do the reading" and other nonsensical dismissals of legitimate criticism of the outsized and/or illogical responses that these conversations often generate.

Internet Explorer posted:

Being racist/misogynist is not the same as not patiently explaining to people why being racist/misogynist is a problem. Let's not pretend they are.

LOL, patiently.

Bob Morales posted:

What's a credit check cost?

Are companies really spending a bunch of money to screen out applicants that early in the process?

A credit/background/criminal history check might run you all of $100 total for everything in a nicely formatted report. It's functionally free.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


AlternateAccount posted:

LOL, patiently.

Ah yes, the paradox of tolerance. This is definitely a conversation I want to be having with someone who does not post in good faith.

Red text and your rap sheet kinda gives it away, champ.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007


RICKARUS

It's Moot baby!




AlternateAccount posted:

No, it's not disingenuous to point out that a lot of people in this thread are rabidly aggressive and confrontational, which is not helpful. "Not their job" is the same sort of bullshit as "Do the reading" and other nonsensical dismissals of legitimate criticism of the outsized and/or illogical responses that these conversations often generate.

You're right, people in this thread are confrontational about this, and you know what? That's a good thing. We need more confrontation and callouts when it comes to equity and diversity within IT. We need to have the difficult conversations, and we need to make people feel uncomfortable. It's the only way the much-needed change will happen. We need to do the work ourselves, that's what anti-racism is, it's not loving whatsoever on anyone else to do the work for us. It's not the responsibility of anyone else to convince you, it's 100% absolutely on you to read, learn, educate, and listen.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Also sexism, religious bias, jingoism, and so on. Don't do it, people!

Dogs, don't do it either, even if the police man really tries to train you to do it.


CLAM DOWN posted:

I will back down on this and admit I was too harsh, I'm not blanket banning Dilbert. I would like to please ask that prior to posting/referring to Dilbert, you consider the source, and what a racist piece of poo poo Scott Adams is, and how his problematic lovely views inspired his comics. Thank you and sorry for jumping to this so harshly and quickly.

Clam Down is the pointy-haired boss of SH/SC, am I right?

I'm skeptical of any social campaigns by companies that aren't non-profits with that campaign as their primary goal, but that's partially my distrust of authority and partially just not trusting for-profit companies to genuinely care about anything but money. The way someone described White Fragility as a book by a white corporate self-help guy written for white people sounds like pretty much what I would expect, tbh. Bonus points if the guy lives in a gated community in a white area / state and doesn't even have any minority family members.

Methanar
Sep 26, 2013
ASK ME ABOUT NOT TIPPING DELIVERY DRIVERS, OR ABOUT MY DIET OF CANNED BABY CORN AND CHICKEN NUGGETS

The only openly racist man I've ever worked with was an Indian immigrant that disapproved of other Indian immigrants.

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

Internet Explorer posted:

Ah yes, the paradox of tolerance. This is definitely a conversation I want to be having with someone who does not post in good faith.

Red text and your rap sheet kinda gives it away, champ.

HELP, I'M BEING OTHERED. Did you pull my credit score and background check before dismissing me on merit grounds and refusing to "train me up" as a good poster/ally?

CLAM DOWN posted:

You're right, people in this thread are confrontational about this, and you know what? That's a good thing. We need more confrontation and callouts when it comes to equity and diversity within IT. We need to have the difficult conversations, and we need to make people feel uncomfortable. It's the only way the much-needed change will happen. We need to do the work ourselves, that's what anti-racism is, it's not loving whatsoever on anyone else to do the work for us. It's not the responsibility of anyone else to convince you, it's 100% absolutely on you to read, learn, educate, and listen.

Imagine believing that you're winning the fight by being an aggressive dick on the internet. Or that people will feel somehow uncomfortable because a faceless goon barks on them. Have the conversations, believe they have value and need to happen. But you're doing it wrong if you defend some of the BS from this thread.

Matt Zerella
Oct 7, 2002


AlternateAccount posted:

Imagine believing that you're winning the fight by being an aggressive dick on the internet. Or that people will feel somehow uncomfortable because a faceless goon barks on them. Have the conversations, believe they have value and need to happen. But you're doing it wrong if you defend some of the BS from this thread.

Sorry we ruined your brunch.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007


RICKARUS

It's Moot baby!




AlternateAccount posted:

HELP, I'M BEING OTHERED.


Imagine believing that you're winning the fight by being an aggressive dick on the internet. Or that people will feel somehow uncomfortable because a faceless goon barks on them. Have the conversations, believe they have value and need to happen. But you're doing it wrong if you defend some of the BS from this thread.

I'm going to assume the best here, but please explain in detail why that post of mine you quoted is "believing that [I'm] winning the fight by being an aggressive dick on the internet". Thanks.

ptier
Jul 2, 2007

Back off man, I'm a scientist.


Pillbug

Help me figure out what I need to put in a job description for a network architect.

Background:
I work at a small state college (~5K students, 1100 Fac/Staff) and over the years IT has been decimated hard by previous administrations because they didn't know what IT was or why it mattered. That thinking is paying dividends today! I am directing a group that consists of:

1. Infrastructure (VMware, servers, O365, Core services etc. Where I hail from)
2. Telecomm
3. Campus networking.

We have 1 network engineer (I know!) who is at retirement age. He is burnt the gently caress out, and rightly so because he has been handling poo poo for like 5 years by himself and he is just done. He is getting ready to retire but really does not want to leave without handing off to someone over like 6 months. I have finally gotten to a position of power to say, we need to build out our networking team, and grow it so we aren't dying! I got the go ahead to get someone in contract-to-hire because of the 'rona I can't do a direct hire right now. This person's job is going to be to get a hand-off from happy to leave network guy, and basically pick-up where he left off, and then modernize how things are done. They won't be the only ones, my plan is to get about 2-3 engineers, and with the infra team, help them automate. I am trying to figure out resources of what to put on a job description for this. I have stuff for a senior, but I haven't really hired for something like this before and my networking knowledge is not there for a campus sized job. Labs, buildings, etc sure I can do that. but with what we got I don't have the experience.

Anything I should put on this thing that is important, non-important etc?

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

Matt Zerella posted:

Sorry we ruined your brunch.

This actually made me LOL. I am done. This is a dumb talk and probably suffers a bit due to the medium.

All I want to communicate is that just because you get that little squirt of dopamine for yelling at a bigot and being an aggressive douche, don't imagine for a moment you've moved the needle or made the world a better place.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007



LAST WORD

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005


AlternateAccount posted:

This actually made me LOL. I am done. This is a dumb talk and probably suffers a bit due to the medium.

All I want to communicate is that just because you get that little squirt of dopamine for yelling at a bigot and being an aggressive douche, don't imagine for a moment you've moved the needle or made the world a better place.

Don't let the door hit you in the rear end on the way out. Maybe 4chan is more your speed.

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

CLAM DOWN posted:

I'm going to assume the best here, but please explain in detail why that post of mine you quoted is "believing that [I'm] winning the fight by being an aggressive dick on the internet". Thanks.

Because it appears to be that you're defending aggressive dickery in this thread, and believe it's actually a quality thing that generates positive results. I disagree. There were some legit quality posts that made real effort to explain how certain interpretations or beliefs cannot be applied to all contexts and that there are perhaps alternative ways to go about these things.
But I also don't want to talk about this anymore. I am not trying to last word you, it's just devolving.

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013





AlternateAccount posted:

HELP, I'M BEING OTHERED. Did you pull my credit score and background check before dismissing me on merit grounds and refusing to "train me up" as a good poster/ally?


Imagine believing that you're winning the fight by being an aggressive dick on the internet. Or that people will feel somehow uncomfortable because a faceless goon barks on them. Have the conversations, believe they have value and need to happen. But you're doing it wrong if you defend some of the BS from this thread.

AlternateAccount
Apr 25, 2005
FYGM

Internet Explorer posted:

Don't let the door hit you in the rear end on the way out. Maybe 4chan is more your speed.

Cool, truly you're winning hearts and minds, A+ good job. Gonna go slowly shrink and transform into a corncob.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

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CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007


RICKARUS

It's Moot baby!




AlternateAccount posted:

This actually made me LOL. I am done. This is a dumb talk and probably suffers a bit due to the medium.

All I want to communicate is that just because you get that little squirt of dopamine for yelling at a bigot and being an aggressive douche, don't imagine for a moment you've moved the needle or made the world a better place.

What a spectacularly awful and useless post. I went into this discussion not wanting to probate anyone, but holy poo poo dude you are trying me.

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