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Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Yosuke posted:

It's a matter of whether or not you need the extra summoning line. You can summon a Berserker without it if the legend is so inclined, the extra line makes it applicable to anyone though.

No the extra line just sets your summon as a Berserker, any hero who qualifies for that.

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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Doesn't the Grail itself ultimately choose the Servants and the Masters? The summoning ritual itself is just encouraging the grail to do a certain thing, but to some extent the entire thing isn't needed. See e.g. how Shirou summons Saber.

Yosuke
Dec 21, 2006

Emperor of Steel


It chooses Masters, but Servants are entirely based on the ritual.

Catalysts decide the Servant easier (Shirou having Avalon stuck inside him leading to Saber, for example), buuut if one isn't used, it's based on Master personality. Kind of like how Fate/Zero Caster was summoned the way he was due to a hosed up Ritual as well.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Einander posted:

The form of Rho Aias has a pretty cool inspiration: it's said that when Ajax died, a hyacinth flower bloomed where his blood hit the ground. You can get up to seven or eight blooms on a wild hyacinth, so it fits with the whole multiple-layer thing too, and some varieties do come in that sort of red-purple color. (Although it's probably just blood color + glowing.)

There's some debate about whether the red flower referred to in the myths was the flower we call a hyacinth today, and Archer's Rho Aius looks a lot more like rocket larkspur (consolida ajacis) than hyacinth to me.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Yosuke posted:

It chooses Masters, but Servants are entirely based on the ritual.

Catalysts decide the Servant easier (Shirou having Avalon stuck inside him leading to Saber, for example), buuut if one isn't used, it's based on Master personality. Kind of like how Fate/Zero Caster was summoned the way he was due to a hosed up Ritual as well.

Kariya and Sakura are good examples as well. Kariya wants to be a white-knight cuckolder so he summons Lancelot, and Sakura has sibling issues and the potential to become a inhuman monster so she summons Medusa.

Shirou was able to summon Saber because of Avalon, but he had been chosen as a Master before his life was in danger (he had the bruise on his hand).

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Even with a catalyst, if there's more than one possible Servant associated with the catalyst, you get the one who resembles your personality best.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Nate RFB posted:

Maybe the Assassin who turned into a Berserker in Fate/Extra is an exception?
I looked up the Chinese Bio of him, it is very long and full of badassness. Doesn't seem to have any case where he goes mad or berserk beside one of his opponent spit at him and he promptly own his rear end in two strikes, but he's so obsess with training that he also gotten the title of "Crazy", "Crazy Lancer", and "Demon Fever". I will just say he have an insanely obsessed daily training regiment.

Nyaa fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Oct 25, 2014

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Yosuke posted:

It chooses Masters, but Servants are entirely based on the ritual.

Not entirely. Shirou was dreaming of Saber before he even knew there was something going on.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Causality can be wonky with the grail, so maybe the mark simply appeared before Shirou summoned Saber even though the summoning caused the mark, much like Rin's necklace served as the catalyst to summon Archer Emiya before it was linked to Shirou when she healed him with it.

AfroSquirrel
Sep 3, 2011



Paracelsus posted:

Causality can be wonky with the grail, so maybe the mark simply appeared before Shirou summoned Saber even though the summoning caused the mark, much like Rin's necklace served as the catalyst to summon Archer Emiya before it was linked to Shirou when she healed him with it.

It certainly doesn't hurt that Rin has a habit of breaking reality on a regular basis while trying to pull of her own versions of Zelrecth's stuff.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


AfroSquirrel posted:

It certainly doesn't hurt that Rin has a habit of breaking reality on a regular basis while trying to pull of her own versions of Zelrecth's stuff.

Does this actually happen that often? In Heaven's Feel, she uses the Second Magic without any screw-ups. I vaguely remember her screwing up with the Second Magic once in Hollow Ataraxia. The idea that Rin is constantly messing up reality seems like fanon to me.

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


Not reading spoilers for HF and F:HA so I'll just leave this here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsWMjLWP5eE

Stevefin
Sep 30, 2013



Silver2195 posted:

Does this actually happen that often? In Heaven's Feel, she uses the Second Magic without any screw-ups. I vaguely remember her screwing up with the Second Magic once in Hollow Ataraxia. The idea that Rin is constantly messing up reality seems like fanon to me.

I think its more implied she tends to get too ahead of herself, Such as summoning Archer and forgetting her clocks are wrong, giving him some amnesia and the best entrance ever, Saving Shirou and forgetting she should of kept a better eye on him to find lancer once he found out he lived, and that she indeed already had an artifact from the snake skin, but never put the two together, those are just within the three days of the start from her prospective, but are easily to pick up on cause it is from her prospective

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Stevefin posted:

I think its more implied she tends to get too ahead of herself, Such as summoning Archer and forgetting her clocks are wrong, giving him some amnesia and the best entrance ever, Saving Shirou and forgetting she should of kept a better eye on him to find lancer once he found out he lived, and that she indeed already had an artifact from the snake skin, but never put the two together, those are just within the three days of the start from her prospective, but are easily to pick up on cause it is from her prospective

Rin tends to do that in general, yes, but AfroSquirrel seemed to be talking about the Second Magic specifically.

Myriad Truths
Oct 13, 2012


Silver2195 posted:

Does this actually happen that often? In Heaven's Feel, she uses the Second Magic without any screw-ups. I vaguely remember her screwing up with the Second Magic once in Hollow Ataraxia. The idea that Rin is constantly messing up reality seems like fanon to me.

The whole route-agnostic setting of Hollow Ataraxia is suggested to be from Rin accidentally merging a bunch of parallel universes, which is a pretty major screwup. It's only referenced in passing though.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Stevefin posted:

...she indeed already had an artifact from the snake skin
This always made me wonder if it was possible to have two of the same servants in a war.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Gaius Marius posted:

This always made me wonder if it was possible to have two of the same servants in a war.

Unless there's some arbitrary restriction on that in some piece of media I haven't read, it should be, technically. iirc, servants are effectively copied from the hall of heroes (or whatever it was called) when summoned, rather than actually resurrected. It'd be kind of funny to see a war made up entirely of Fate Lancers, as he's got the qualifications to be any class but assassin.

Blhue fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Oct 25, 2014

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Blhue posted:

Unless there's some arbitrary restriction on that in some piece of media I haven't read, it should be, technically. iirc, servants are effectively copied from the hall of heroes (or whatever it was called) when summoned, rather than actually resurrected. It'd be kind of funny to see a war made up entirely of Fate Lancers, as he's got the qualifications to be any class but assassin.

Yeah them being copies was what got me thinking about it. I suppose special cases like Arturia can be discounted. Although clones of the same servant in one war is not nearly as interesting a hypothetical as Kiritsugu somehow being unable to summon Saber and instead summoning Archer.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Servent could be summon at different stage/age of their life that match the class and master better, so it would be interesting. Pre/post insane version of f/z caster as saber, post enlightened fate/extra assassin as an old man lancer, pre-fallen f/n rider in her goddess form, saber alter, etc.

Nyaa fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Oct 25, 2014

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Is that how the Berserker fight went in the original or did they change things somewhat?

i ask because it seemed kinda unfamiliar, but maybe my memory's just to blame

e: It was super good either way tho

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Newest ep of UBW is up and, as predicted, it's all the Berserker fight. Ufotable is taking a bit of creative liberty with the original material, giving Ilya enough battle capability to drive Rin into a corner, and having Saber use Strike Air: Hammer of the Wind King from Fate/Zero to take one of Berserker's lives. Archer's Caladbolg II, in turn, seems to have no effect, making Ilya's comment that Archer interests her more than Saber seem knda strange. Animation was top-notch, though.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Aumanor posted:

Newest ep of UBW is up and, as predicted, it's all the Berserker fight. Ufotable is taking a bit of creative liberty with the original material, giving Ilya enough battle capability to drive Rin into a corner, and having Saber use Strike Air: Hammer of the Wind King from Fate/Zero to take one of Berserker's lives. Archer's Caladbolg II, in turn, seems to have no effect, making Ilya's comment that Archer interests her more than Saber seem knda strange. Animation was top-notch, though.

What? That's an odd change considering that Archer being able to fight was the diverging factor in the VN. :psyduck:

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



meh no effect is a little much, it pretty much nukes the area and is enough to have Ilya call Berserker off

also Crunchyroll spells Illya with two ls and it bothers me

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Xoidanor posted:

What? That's an odd change considering that Archer being able to fight was the diverging factor in the VN. :psyduck:

Well, it still seems to make Ilya decide that it's way past her bedtime and she's going home, so perhaps it killed Berserker for the second time this night, and ufotable just completely failed to convay it. I don't know, man :shrug:

Cake Attack posted:

meh no effect is a little much, it pretty much nukes the area and is enough to have Ilya call Berserker off

Well, yeah, but in VN it leaves Berserker without half of his skin, while here he just kinda shrugs it off. Which in light of Rin saying that it was an A-class Noble Phantasm makes even less sense, since God Hand can only nullify attacks up to B-Class. And Invisible Air is only C-class, so it shouldn't even leave a scratch. Uggh.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Cake Attack posted:

meh no effect is a little much, it pretty much nukes the area and is enough to have Ilya call Berserker off

also Crunchyroll spells Illya with two ls and it bothers me
Apparently that's the official spelling. I remember this because one of the Beast Lair translators for the new RN patch making a stink about changing all instances of "Ilya" in their patch.

KaneTW
Dec 2, 2011



Illya is an extremely strong magus, so it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that she can drive Rin in a corner. I don't remember how that scene played out in the VN, though.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



KaneTW posted:

Illya is an extremely strong magus, so it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that she can drive Rin in a corner. I don't remember how that scene played out in the VN, though.

I can't remember Ilya ever using her magic outside of bad ends in the VN.

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



someone posted some screens from the VN elsewhere and Archer's Caladbolg does the exact same thing there as it does here?

Rin even has her line about how he's unhurt after taking a hit from an A-Rank phantasm.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

In the VN Berserker uses his sword to deflect the arrow before it hits his body, the implication being that unlike all the previous arrows he felt it was a threat if it directly hit his body.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Aumanor posted:

Well, yeah, but in VN it leaves Berserker without half of his skin,
I think that you are not remembering well.
The "half of his skin" scene is in the forest battle in Fate. And Rin did it, not Archer.

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


YggdrasilTM posted:

I think that you are not remembering well.
The "half of his skin" scene is in the forest battle in Fate. And Rin did it, not Archer.

Huuh. Well, my face is pretty red right now.

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013



I'm pretty sure Archer wasn't even aiming for Berserker in this case, but for Shirou and Saber.

I was also about to comment how we won't see Ilya much later, but then we had that scene with Kirei.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Cake Attack posted:

meh no effect is a little much, it pretty much nukes the area and is enough to have Ilya call Berserker off

also Crunchyroll spells Illya with two ls and it bothers me

My understanding is that Ilya is worried because she realises she's facing an opponent that is destroying priceless irreplaceable Noble Phantasms without giving a drat.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


He was aiming for Berserker, but he didn't mind Shiro and Saber getting swept in the blast too. Really, the entire fight is great since it shows off all three servants spectacularly and the anime did a great job of escalating each assault from Archer. I also appreciated them having Saber just loving tear through Berserker, it was cool.

I think it's weird though, that they didn't reveal him as Heracles, but chances are they will talk about it next episode or use it as a big reveal for later.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Beef Waifu posted:

He was aiming for Berserker, but he didn't mind Shiro and Saber getting swept in the blast too. Really, the entire fight is great since it shows off all three servants spectacularly and the anime did a great job of escalating each assault from Archer. I also appreciated them having Saber just loving tear through Berserker, it was cool.

I think it's weird though, that they didn't reveal him as Heracles, but chances are they will talk about it next episode or use it as a big reveal for later.

They could be saving it for Nine Bullet Revolver...

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


That would be a weird time to pull it out, but still sick. They'll definitely do it before Gil gets involved as they're going to need to justify why Enkidu is wrecking Berserker's poo poo.

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


That moment in particular is the moment I'm most looking forward to seeing animated. The way it plays out in the VN is so brutal, that it can't end up anything else except awesome. I wonder if they're going to do a callback-like scene of Berserker nearly chopping Gil in half, but the chains stop him at the last moment.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Illya (Ill-lia) is how it's always been pronounced so the name change doesn't really bother me.

If Ufotable are going to be adding scenes like breakdance Berserker and Illya actually using magic then I understand why they split UBW into two seasons a lot more. Next episode we should be able to see if they can nail the cheesy slice of life tension with Shirou's house turning into a hotel. Hype for more Taiga.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Fangz posted:

They could be saving it for Nine Bullet Revolver...

That's an HF scene, isn't it?

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Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Blhue posted:

That's an HF scene, isn't it?

yeah but they are adapting that later

You're right though that they probably wouldn't leave that information out of what ostensibly will work as a standalone series

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