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BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Clarste posted:

Oh, is that how it works? I must have done it by accident the first time through because that was an awesome surprise.

It also straight up doesn't happen if you don't have enough Ilya points (which also locks you into Normal), though good luck messing that up.

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Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


HellCopter posted:

I have no knowledge of Kara no Kyoukai other than that the main character wears a cool jacket and is also named Shiki for some reason. I decided to take a look at the first movie, and - am I supposed to have even the faintest clue who anybody is or what's going on? Because 20 minutes in and I really, really don't. Was I supposed to read something beforehand or start at movie 4 or some other weird condition?

I think it's best to watch the first five movies slowly, giving yourself time to really think about the characters and the things that happened, even re-watching stuff if you feel like it. Almost everything that may appear pointless at first is there for a reason.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

You may want to re-watch movie 5 right afterwards anyway because the plot structure is so labyrinthine.

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


AfroSquirrel posted:

I had that happen with This Illusion ~ Piano Version for a while.

Godspeed you crazy fool. Hopefully you don't come out of this adventure talking like Nasu writes. Other possible symptoms of overexposure to Fate may be a sudden increased interest in cooking, swords, and combinations of the two.

I actually liked the cooking scenes and I definitely came away from FSN with an increased interest in cooking, haha. I've cooked a little bit of Japanese food before and was already interested in learning more, but I think a cast-iron skillet, broiling pan, and Japanese cookbook are going on my Christmas list now because of this game…

Scrree posted:

Fate/Stay Night's music is the loving poo poo and one of the major reasons why I'll argue that the VN is still worth reading even with all the adaptions out. Finishing a route and going back to the start screen with a new backround and New Dawn starts playing and fuuuuck.

My little sis just finished UBW a couple days ago, and I showed her the Carnival Phantasm Holy Grail Grand Prix section today. She is firmly on the dark path :getin:

On that note, for UBW I told her to get True End first and then double-back for Good End since sunny day is kind of lackluster, but for Heaven's Feel I'm thinking the best order is Sparks Liner High, then Cherry Blossom Dreams, and finish with Return to Spring for maximum catharsis.

This is the order I did these in (well, I didn't get Sparks Liner High, but that probably would've gone before the other two if I did) and yes UBW True End is definitely way better than the Good End. Rin and Shirou talking about moving in together in London and Shirou learning magic from Rin and just them planning for the future was really cute.
Also I'm glad you're getting your sister into Type-Moon. I was happy to see a decent number of women at the Type-Moon panel I went to a while ago, but I'd like to see more of us.

GhostStalker
Mar 26, 2010

Guys, find a woman who looks at you the way GhostStalker looks at every bald, obese, single 58 year old accountant from Tulsa who managed to win $4,000 by not wagering on a Final Jeopardy triple stumper.

jellycat posted:

I finished Fate/Stay Night a few days ago. Every time I think about the Heaven's Feel normal ending enough, I start tearing up again because I'm a crybaby. I'm glad the true ending is mostly pretty happy.

I dipped my toe into Hollow Ataraxia, but I think I'm going to watch Fate/Zero first, because I'd rather end the main Fate stuff on a more pleasant note. I also have Carnival Phantasm prepared for this reason.

Basically I am going to tear through most of the Fate franchise in one month, I guess.

Yeah, HF Normal is pretty downer, especially that music. I remember when seorin got to that point in his LP, and the reactions in thread were pretty sad.

Have yet to do Hollow/Ataraxia, but since the English patch was out a couple months ago, I should probably get on that...

I've watched bits and pieces of Carnival Phantasm, but have yet to see the whole thing. The stuff I did watch was hilarious, though.

Keep on keeping on with regards to getting deeper into the Fate franchise, it really is a great ride.

KoB
Apr 30, 2009


I'd say that only 40-50% of Carnival Phantasm is good. And that's probably being generous, its been a while since I've seen it.

But its really loving funny when its good.

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


KoB posted:

I'd say that only 40-50% of Carnival Phantasm is good. And that's probably being generous, its been a while since I've seen it.

But its really loving funny when its good.

Berserker's First Errand and Holy Grail Grand Prix are pure loving gold.

New episode of UBW is up and, following the pattern of alternating acton and breather/exposition it's mostly a talky one. Not much for people who already played the VN, but there's still some eye candy in the form of Shirou's Tracing. Oh, and they somehow keep finding ways to make Shinji's smug face even more punchable.
Next episode: Fall Down, Your Mind. Oh, and also it seems that they'll include Elegant Moonlight: VS Assassin from the Fate route to show off some of Sasaki's moves. Makes sense, I guess.

Aumanor fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Nov 15, 2014

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



remind me again why archer wouldn't just let caster kill shirou?

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Cake Attack posted:

remind me again why archer wouldn't just let caster kill shirou?

I guess he still has to follow Rin's instructions. Also if Caster takes Shirou's command spells, that's a major powerup for Team Caster, and Archer still wants Rin to win.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Aumanor posted:

New episode of UBW is up and, following the pattern of alternating acton and breather/exposition it's mostly a talky one. Not much for people who already played the VN, but there's still some eye candy in the form of Shirou's Tracing. Oh, and they somehow keep finding ways to make Shinji's smug face even more punchable.
Next episode: Fall Down, Your Mind. Oh, and also it seems that they'll include Elegant Moonlight: VS Assassin from the Fate route to show off some of Sasak's moves. Makes sense, I guess.
It's neat all the little hints that UBW is dropping once you know what's actually going on. Things like Caster calling Shirou the weakest master by far after Shinji admitted that he has no mana, or Archer's sophistry about Heroic Spirits being stripped of their will, after we've seen him defy Rin, suggesting that he's not actually a Heroic Spirit.

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013



Cake Attack posted:

remind me again why archer wouldn't just let caster kill shirou?

He wants to create a time paradox by killing his past self himself.

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



wouldn't your past self dying also be time paradoxy?

although I accept that killing your past self yourself is probably a step higher on the paradox scale

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Cake Attack posted:

wouldn't your past self dying also be time paradoxy?

although I accept that killing your past self yourself is probably a step higher on the paradox scale

The Throne of Heroes is beyond time and space, any Heroic Spirit within is pretty much immune to anything that happens outside. You could prevent Shirou from ever being born in any and every universe and it would have zero effect on Archer. As a matter of fact, even Archer directly killing his past self only has the most miniscule of chances to erase him.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Cake Attack posted:

remind me again why archer wouldn't just let caster kill shirou?

To create a paradox strong enough to erase him from the throne of heroes, the killer has to be Archer himself, not someone else.

GodFish
Oct 10, 2012

We're your first, last, and only line of defense. We live in secret. We exist in shadow.

And we dress in black.


Doesn't he admit that it wouldn't actually do anything, but he just wanted to do it for satisfaction?

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Not sure if it's been mentionned here before (and I'm too lazy to check), but I really like what they're doing with the soundtrack. Every Servant gets not only his own leitmotif, but a set of instruments associated with him. So Saber gets strings, Rider gets some techno and fake Assassin what sounds to be traditional japanese pipe instruments. Archer's theme opens with the first couple sounds of Emiya, and then breaks into a guitar riff.

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


GodFish posted:

Doesn't he admit that it wouldn't actually do anything, but he just wanted to do it for satisfaction?

Yes. Archer just hates Shirous guts. Thats why he wants to kill him. He wishes it'd erase himself too but he knows it won't do anything. The reason he saved him in this scene is because he hasn't gone over to the point of hating him enough to kill him.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Iretep posted:

Yes. Archer just hates Shirous guts. Thats why he wants to kill him. He wishes it'd erase himself too but he knows it won't do anything. The reason he saved him in this scene is because he hasn't gone over to the point of hating him enough to kill him.

There is also the little problem of giving Saber to Caster, that is not exactly a good idea.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

I'm a little confused on the "the Matou's are no longer Mages" thing when Zouken is supposedly still kicking around and Sakura should have those worm things as circuits or whatever ja?

Paracelsus posted:

It's neat all the little hints that UBW is dropping once you know what's actually going on. Things like Caster calling Shirou the weakest master by far after Shinji admitted that he has no mana, or Archer's sophistry about Heroic Spirits being stripped of their will, after we've seen him defy Rin, suggesting that he's not actually a Heroic Spirit.

How does Shirou being called the weakest master fit in to this again? :confused:

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



sakura isn't a matou, and he means the new generation of matous aren't mages anymore.

Shinji would be the weakest master because unlike Shirou he has literally no mana, but Sakura is the real master and that's foreshadowing that

i think

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Unless its a new line or a differently translated one, I had never noticed Archer outright saying he already knows the grail is evil before either

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Cake Attack posted:

sakura isn't a matou, and he means the new generation of matous aren't mages anymore.

Shinji would be the weakest master because unlike Shirou he has literally no mana, but Sakura is the real master and that's foreshadowing that

i think
Or maybe she's just alluding to the fact that Shirou is the only master stupid enough to prevent his servant from protecting him :v:

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


Archer doesn't know for sure what killing Shirou would accomplish - it's just him gambling on the chance that wiping out Shirou in the same timeline would wipe out the idea of Archer's existence as well. We don't know if there's such a possibility in the first place, or whether Archer's just delusional. He simply hates Shirou (and his own self, by extension) too much to care.

Raenir Salazar posted:

I'm a little confused on the "the Matou's are no longer Mages" thing when Zouken is supposedly still kicking around and Sakura should have those worm things as circuits or whatever ja?

To add to what has already been said, Zouken has been around since the First Grail War. What that quote meant was that the bloodline grew weaker (and eventually lost all its power) with each passing generation, not that there aren't any existing Matou mages alive.

Kubla Khan fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Nov 15, 2014

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Kubla Khan posted:

Archer doesn't know for sure what killing Shirou would accomplish - it's just him gambling on the chance that wiping out Shirou in the same timeline would wipe out the idea of Archer's existence as well. We don't know if there's such a possibility in the first place, or whether Archer's just delusional. He simply hates Shirou (and his own self, by extension) too much to care.

I'd say it's the other way round- what he hates most is himself, and his hatred of Shirou is just an extension of that. Up until the end of their fight he doesn't really see Shirou- only his own past mistakes and the ideal that failed him.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Cake Attack posted:

sakura isn't a matou, and he means the new generation of matous aren't mages anymore.

Shinji would be the weakest master because unlike Shirou he has literally no mana, but Sakura is the real master and that's foreshadowing that

i think
That's what I was getting at.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

Wait, wasn't Waver's whole thing about how blood lines shouldn't matter though? Gotta be a way to get good at magic again shouldn't there or some other form of magic? Where does Shirou's magic come from then?

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


There's magical knowledge and ability you accumulate over generations, and then there's weird new freakish magic that just emerges. Shirou's is something like that.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Raenir Salazar posted:

Wait, wasn't Waver's whole thing about how blood lines shouldn't matter though? Gotta be a way to get good at magic again shouldn't there or some other form of magic? Where does Shirou's magic come from then?

Magic Circuits are genetic, so someone born with circuits outside a family is something that may happen. The point is that people born in old magi families have almost surely more powerful magic circuits (Waver was pretty much wrong, and Keyneth was right).

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Waver's thing was about how the age of your line shouldn't be the be-all-end-all of your prestige/standing/capability. Think 'old money' vs. 'new money'. Older lines however will be able to accumulate more knowledge and spells into their crests so by a certain definition they would be "better" than any new upstarts.

Soylentbits
Apr 2, 2007

im worried that theyre setting her up to be jotaros future wife or something.

YggdrasilTM posted:

Magic Circuits are genetic, so someone born with circuits outside a family is something that may happen. The point is that people born in old magi families have almost surely more powerful magic circuits (Waver was pretty much wrong, and Keyneth was right).

Kayneth is dead and Archer could probably murder any mage no matter how old their family is. Waver was absolutely right.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Most mages aren't as specialized for killing things as Shirou though.

The whole point is basically moot anyways because every single mage seems to have their own specialties, and just like literally everything else in the Nasuverse how effective something is depends more on circumstances than some nebulous power level.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Raenir Salazar posted:

Where does Shirou's magic come from then?

Shirou was just a random kid with magic circuits until the 4th Grail burnt his body and soul up. Then Kiritsugu came and saved him by engraving his ideal into his mind and Avalon into his flesh; Avalon then turned him into a living sheath, a magus whose origin and element were both 'Swords' and whose only magic was to summon a world of unlimited blades. This was the only thing ever given to him.

Shirou's magic sucks so much rear end during the beginning of FSN because his mentors are more orthodox Magi who keep trying to steer him down a path that's totally useless to him. There is some evidence for 'Magic Circuit Improvement' in how Archer is able to call on Unlimited Blade Works independently, while UBW-Shirou has to rely on Rin's magical energy to trigger/activate all of his circuits and get enough power to actually summon his Reality Marble. A lot of his early weakness comes not so much from being under-trained as much as being completely oblivious to what his magic actually is.

On Archer's motivation, a lot of what he says in his final pre-battle monologue at Einzbern Castle are basically thinly veiled insults towards himself - like calling Shirou a 'foolish kid who ultimately ends up a clown'. He considers his entire life to have been a complete mistake, and his only goal is to futilely punish himself even with a near-zero chance of there being any actual absolution.

Scrree fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Nov 16, 2014

Yosuke
Dec 21, 2006

Emperor of Steel


Let's not forget due to how wrong he was taught, Shirou was using his nerves instead of his actual Circuits, adding onto his suck because when he finally "awakens" them, they barely hold any prana in them.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

I feel like Waver's thing is more like "we should stop organizing magical society around these weird incestuous families and start working on social structures that help people increase their magic power in other ways."

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Rand Brittain posted:

I feel like Waver's thing is more like "we should stop organizing magical society around these weird incestuous families and start working on social structures that help people increase their magic power in other ways."
That sounds suspiciously like it won't get to the Root of Origin by using an incredibly dangerous plan that will probably kill everyone around you. Rejected.

Shyrka
Feb 10, 2005

Small Boss likes to spin!

Wasn't Waver's essay about efficiency? Like how if scrub generation #3 mage has 30 magic circuits and prestigious generation #18 mage has 90 magic circuits then if the scrub mage uses certain techniques to accomplish an effort using 1 circuit that the accepted method uses 3 for, then the newer families can match the older ones.

Kinda falls apart if the old families can use these cool techniques as well, and I dunno if they really existed or were just a theory.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Waver's whole storyline is that he actually had an inflated opinion of himself and got in over his head. Remember how an ordinary old man broke his hypnotism?

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Rodyle posted:

Waver's whole storyline is that he actually had an inflated opinion of himself and got in over his head. Remember how an ordinary old man broke his hypnotism?

All mages have an inflated opinion of themselves.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Rodyle posted:

Waver's whole storyline is that he actually had an inflated opinion of himself and got in over his head. Remember how an ordinary old man broke his hypnotism?
Waver's whole story is that he's the one remotely normal or sane person who managed to get himself involved with this crazy war and all of its batshit masters.

Seriously, for the most part everyone in either Holy Grail is extremely mentally hosed up, either from the stress of having their parents die at an early age and having to take over their ridiculous legacy, being tortured all their lives, having an extreme case of survivor's guilt, being turned into some kind of magic super weapon chalice and raised to kill their own father who betrayed The Family, being raised to become a sociopath, being brought up as if they're completely useless to the family and completely overshadowed by their adopted sister, killing their father after he raised the dead and destroyed his entire village before becoming a hitman, being a serial killer, undergoing horrific training to try to save the daughter of the woman you love (who shacked up with another man), being the guy who sold his daughter to being tortured, oh and then there's the guy who's literally just loving evil.

In the middle of all this, we have Waver Velvet, a kid who got embarrassed in front of an entire classroom and wanted to prove how he awesome he was to spite his teacher. He's the definition of the "normal person who got in way, way, way over his head," and that's easily why he's everyone's favorite character.

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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

To what extent is Gilgamesh's arrogance an act? Whenever he's got his hair down he seems to act more casually, not withstanding Kid!Gil who acts fairly down to earth as well.

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