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Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Fate Stay Night is a story where the four villains are a rapist untermensch, a rapist ubermensch, an elderly patriarch, and a Catholic Priest trying to stop an abortion. And people go around calling it misogynistic because the MC is chauvinistic for the first 1/6th of the story before getting called on it and changing.



It's Frustrating!

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KaneTW
Dec 2, 2011



Scrree posted:

Fate Stay Night is a story where the four villains are a rapist untermensch, a rapist ubermensch, an elderly patriarch, and a Catholic Priest trying to stop an abortion. And people go around calling it misogynistic because the MC is chauvinistic for the first 1/6th of the story before getting called on it and changing.



It's Frustrating!

F/SN HF thread title should be A Catholic priest trying to stop an abortion.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



After the watching the recent UBW episode all I can ask is, why exactly was Caster doing jack poo poo in the fate route again? I mean she's a non-factor for most of it and then she randomly takes a trip down the hill before the endgame in an attempt to stab Saber and gets herself killed. Was that ever explained?

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


Xoidanor posted:

After the watching the recent UBW episode all I can ask is, why exactly was Caster doing jack poo poo in the fate route again? I mean she's a non-factor for most of it and then she randomly takes a trip down the hill before the endgame in an attempt to stab Saber and gets herself killed. Was that ever explained?

She was waiting for saber to kill berserker because she didn't want to deal with him.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Iretep posted:

She was waiting for saber to kill berserker because she didn't want to deal with him.

If it's that simply then why is she about to get proactive in UBW? Nothing is really stopping her from just staying perched at her hill. :confused:

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


At least in the anime right now, Illya's letting Berserker recover from the fight with Archer and Saber so Caster probably sees an opportunity to act while the bruiser's down and out.

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


Yeah, If berserker wasn't recovering right now, in the fate route he would probably be banging on the temple doors asking caster kindly to come out and fight. Assassin would rudely ask him to leave sadly.

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


In Fate, Saber is sleeping in the room next to Shirou, but in UBW, she's sleeping in a separate room, so Caster is able to draw Shirou out without Saber noticing.

EDIT:
Also, the reason why she acts when she does in Fate is explained in Hollow Ataraxia:
Gilgamesh goes to the temple and kills Assassin and Kuzuki. I don't know where Caster is while this is happening, but she finds Kuzuki as he's dying.

jellycat fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Nov 24, 2014

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013



I remember Caster tries the same thing with manipulating Shirou, but Saber interrupts it and this is where she fights Assassin the first time.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Bholder posted:

I remember Caster tries the same thing with manipulating Shirou, but Saber interrupts it and this is where she fights Assassin the first time.

That's is a bad end. Shinji tells Shirou that a Master is hiding in the temple. Rin thinks is a trap, Saber wants to go.
If Shirou listens to saber, you are attacked by Rider, Assassin is nowhere in sight and during the battle Shirou is teleported inside the temple, where Caster steals his command spells.
If Shirou listens to Rin, saber goes anyway and starts a battle with Assassin. Shirou goes there, Assassin and saber stop their fight because someone else (probably Rider) was watching them, Shirou recovers Saber and he goes home

Stevefin
Sep 30, 2013



jellycat posted:

EDIT:
Also, the reason why she acts when she does in Fate is explained in Hollow Ataraxia:
Gilgamesh goes to the temple and kills Assassin and Kuzuki. I don't know where Caster is while this is happening, but she finds Kuzuki as he's dying.

So in fate, caster decided to get off her temple, surprise team saber + rin, because Gilgamesh killed fake assassin and Kuzuki, than proceeds to shadow an angry caster through the town, Cause Gilgamesh got bored?

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Scrree posted:

And people go around calling it misogynistic because the MC is chauvinistic for the first 1/6th of the story before getting called on it and changing.
I find it sort of perplexing because what exactly did Shirou really do in the latest episode that either wasn't clearly meant to be funny (bickering with Archer) or the right thing to do (don't let Caster get away)? He's been treating Saber with the respect she deserves, and is of course deferring to her when it comes to combat as showcased in the end. I'd even go as far as to say that the events of this episode combined with his :clint: attitude towards Rider is where it started to feel like Shirou was finally coming into his own as a MC. The bizarre tangents about how Kiritsugu was Too Cool For School are equally perplexing; people are really tying themselves in knots trying to find excuses as to why these high schoolers clearly don't know what's up and should look to proper role models like him and I don't know that dweeb Kayneth or something.

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


I liked the Kiritsugu I heard about more than the Kiritsugu actually depicted in Fate/Zero. Like, putting aside ideals or whatever, he literally says something like "this gun… it weighs more than my eight-year-old daughter…" before cheating on his wife and making out with his mistress. That was the most eye-rolly "I'm a tortured adult anti-hero" writing ever and I kind of couldn't take him seriously afterwards. Fate/Zero in general seems to take the "sex and ruthless violence = mature cool thing" approach and that stuff turns me off on media so much because it feels like a really juvenile idea of maturity.

That said, I still liked Fate/Zero.

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


jellycat posted:

I liked the Kiritsugu I heard about more than the Kiritsugu actually depicted in Fate/Zero. Like, putting aside ideals or whatever, he literally says something like "this gun… it weighs more than my eight-year-old daughter…" before cheating on his wife and making out with his mistress.

I think the idea with Maiya is that Iri knows about her and accepts her role in Kiritsugu's life as a way for him to keep calm and relax when he's out doing something dangerous. His smoking goes along with that, too, which is why he never smokes around Iri and Ilya.

anglachel
May 28, 2012


Sylphid posted:

I think the idea with Maiya is that Iri knows about her and accepts her role in Kiritsugu's life as a way for him to keep calm and relax when he's out doing something dangerous. His smoking goes along with that, too, which is why he never smokes around Iri and Ilya.

I get the vibe that Iri knows about what Maiya has going on with Kiritsugu. But at the same time Iri knows she is about to die cause of being the Grail vessel, so Kiritsugu having someone after she is gone is comforting to her. Maiya is also okay with Iri, because she likewise knows that Iri is not long for this world. Iri also being terribly bothered about a non traditional arrangement seems unlikely given her background.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Xoidanor posted:

If it's that simply then why is she about to get proactive in UBW? Nothing is really stopping her from just staying perched at her hill. :confused:
I thought Archer stroked her ego and convinced her to deal with it? That would also explain why Archer didn't kill Caster, because he can use her to deal with berseker.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

You guys are forgetting that in Fate Archer spends most of his time hanging out on top of the Emiya household on lookout duty.

Caster is more proactive in UBW because Shirou, without having Rin and Archer at his house, is much less protected.

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


Sylphid posted:

I think the idea with Maiya is that Iri knows about her and accepts her role in Kiritsugu's life as a way for him to keep calm and relax when he's out doing something dangerous.

anglachel posted:

I get the vibe that Iri knows about what Maiya has going on with Kiritsugu. But at the same time Iri knows she is about to die cause of being the Grail vessel, so Kiritsugu having someone after she is gone is comforting to her. Maiya is also okay with Iri, because she likewise knows that Iri is not long for this world. Iri also being terribly bothered about a non traditional arrangement seems unlikely given her background.

I can definitely see this being Irisviel's perspective on this, but maybe my opinion was colored from reading this, from the wiki:

quote:

Because allowing his wife to sacrifice herself to complete the Grail is a betrayal towards her love, no matter what others say, it is necessary that he does not hesitate in this betrayal. Kiritsugu sees his sexual relationship with Maiya as a rehearsal before this betrayal, a form of self-abuse to steel his nerves while walking down this path. It is probably the sorriest excuse to have an affair, and it is essentially a negative spiral downward without an end.

Basically, however Irisviel feels about it, as a dramatic tool it's purpose is to be angst-fodder for Kiritsugu and it feels sooo clumsy and hard to take seriously for me.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


That kinda sounds like the wiki making stuff up.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


"Fate/Zero is darker and edgier therefore superior because Kiritsugu is a goddamn adult who would cap all these motherfuckers in the head," is what I usually glean from people who think F/Z is the best.

I like Fate/Zero. Urobuchi's writing worked well with Nasu's concepts for a story where the entire purpose was ultimately to show the misery that the Holy Grail War causes and how it effects the participants. Each participant is an interesting character to some degree and have a back story regardless of how big their part is. Waver and Rider are fantastic as are Saber (who needed actual characterization after Studio Deen's adaptions) and Irisviel and it IS refreshing to see a mostly adult cast instead of high school kids getting into whacky magic shenanigans.

That being said, people still missed the point that there are things left unresolved at the end of Fate/Zero which is where FSN steps in with Rin, Shirou, and friends. And goddamn if poo poo doesn't go down, but eh, seven episodes isn't enough to convince some people I guess.

EDIT:

Kyte posted:

That kinda sounds like the wiki making stuff up.

That excerpt is actually cited from the Fate/Zero material book. Kiritsugu really does have that as a super pitiful excuse.

Compendium fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Nov 24, 2014

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


Kyte posted:

That kinda sounds like the wiki making stuff up.

It cites Fate/Zero material, which is one of the material books cited throughout their Fate/Zero articles, and the other articles also cite similar books for their respective games. Without having a copy in front of me I can't confirm it for myself, but I believe it, at any rate.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



I've always thought that kind of thing fits in super well with the whole part where Kiritsugu is supposed to be an emotionally immature weirdo (as is everyone else in his camp really, except maybe Saber).

But that's another part of what makes the whole "Kiritsugu is so much better" crowd weird. "Kiritsugu is so much better because Shirou is so misogynistic blah blah blah" yeah let's bring back the guy who completely disrespects his Servant, murders his foster mother, essentially treats his ward like a rifle with limbs and a vagina, and was planning to ritually sacrifice his wife (albeit with her permission I guess), HE'LL show that high school boy how to treat a woman.

HellCopter
Feb 9, 2012


College Slice

A lot of people like Kiritsugu because he's a guy who shoots things, pew pew. 7 episodes in and Shirou hasn't shot anybody or blown up any buildings, ergo, he's boring. At least, that's what some people say.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Rodyle posted:

I've always thought that kind of thing fits in super well with the whole part where Kiritsugu is supposed to be an emotionally immature weirdo (as is everyone else in his camp really, except maybe Saber).

But that's another part of what makes the whole "Kiritsugu is so much better" crowd weird. "Kiritsugu is so much better because Shirou is so misogynistic blah blah blah" yeah let's bring back the guy who completely disrespects his Servant, murders his foster mother, essentially treats his ward like a rifle with limbs and a vagina, and was planning to ritually sacrifice his wife (albeit with her permission I guess), HE'LL show that high school boy how to treat a woman.

My thoughts exactly. Like, even in the first edition of the Fate route where Shirou does say outrageously stupid poo poo, he still ends up having to get over it and works together with Saber unlike Kiritsugu. And the current UBW adaption is going out of its way to show that he is completely out of his depth and needs to depend on Saber and Rin to get through the War and not loving die.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Rodyle posted:

I've always thought that kind of thing fits in super well with the whole part where Kiritsugu is supposed to be an emotionally immature weirdo (as is everyone else in his camp really, except maybe Saber).

But that's another part of what makes the whole "Kiritsugu is so much better" crowd weird. "Kiritsugu is so much better because Shirou is so misogynistic blah blah blah" yeah let's bring back the guy who completely disrespects his Servant, murders his foster mother, essentially treats his ward like a rifle with limbs and a vagina, and was planning to ritually sacrifice his wife (albeit with her permission I guess), HE'LL show that high school boy how to treat a woman.

I've sometimes speculated that Shirou's overprotective attitude towards women (which Taiga suggests he got from Kiritsugu) is the result of Kiritsugu's guilt about how badly he treated Maiya, etc.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Rodyle posted:

I've always thought that kind of thing fits in super well with the whole part where Kiritsugu is supposed to be an emotionally immature weirdo (as is everyone else in his camp really, except maybe Saber).

But that's another part of what makes the whole "Kiritsugu is so much better" crowd weird. "Kiritsugu is so much better because Shirou is so misogynistic blah blah blah" yeah let's bring back the guy who completely disrespects his Servant, murders his foster mother, essentially treats his ward like a rifle with limbs and a vagina, and was planning to ritually sacrifice his wife (albeit with her permission I guess), HE'LL show that high school boy how to treat a woman.
You could say he's the Walter White of the Fate franchise.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


For him to be Walter he'd need to have quotable lines that aren't: "NO, THAT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!" Or anything else he says during the Grail's mindfucking of him.

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



does anyone have a picture of kiritsugu looking dumb?

i need it to help prove to the other thread that Shirou > Kiritsugu

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Beef Waifu posted:

For him to be Walter he'd need to have quotable lines that aren't: "NO, THAT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!" Or anything else he says during the Grail's mindfucking of him.

The grail neatly dissecting just how stupid his way of life had been with the rigged boat dilemma was no joke the best non-action part of Fate/Zero.

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


The Unlimited Blade Works thread has taught me that if I am ever responsible for anyone getting into Fate stuff, I will start them with Fate/stay night, as is good and proper.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Compendium posted:

"Fate/Zero is darker and edgier therefore superior because Kiritsugu is a goddamn adult who would cap all these motherfuckers in the head," is what I usually glean from people who think F/Z is the best.
I don't see this attitude very much, it mostly seems like a strawman built by FSN enthusiasts. Kiritsugu's moral system is wrong and the series makes that abundantly clear. Indeed that's one of the major reasons I like FZ (and to some degree FSN); plenty of other action series pretty much advocate behaviour like his and it was refreshing to see his ideals taken down.

The actual problem I had when I read FSN is that it had loads of long pointless boring scenes, and when I watched FZ I was glad to see most of the cool things I liked about FSN without as many of those scenes.

Chalupa Picada
Jan 13, 2009



If you aren't a Food Network enthusiast, FSN may not be for you.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Irony Be My Shield posted:

I don't see this attitude very much, it mostly seems like a strawman built by FSN enthusiasts. Kiritsugu's moral system is wrong and the series makes that abundantly clear. Indeed that's one of the major reasons I like FZ (and to some degree FSN); plenty of other action series pretty much advocate behaviour like his and it was refreshing to see his ideals taken down.

The actual problem I had when I read FSN is that it had loads of long pointless boring scenes, and when I watched FZ I was glad to see most of the cool things I liked about FSN without as many of those scenes.

Yeah, the first part is straw man-y. The second, not so much though since it's right there in the UBW thread.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

I don't think there is a problem with overvaluing Kiritsugu myself; I think most people who watch Zero will generally come away from it agreeing that dude was kind of a loser. The problem instead comes from our 'new' main character who a certain set of people refuse to acknowledge as a legitimate direction for the story to take. Obviously, he's going to be a bog standard shounen hero who will just ganbare to victory. So they twist themselves into knots with their mental gymnastics to justify how obviously any and everything the main guys did in Zero is better than whatever these pesky kids are up to. Some of that may be because of a lack of an immediate pay off to Shirou's arc, or because of biases from how how he was portrayed in the first series, but the net result is they won't get aboard the Shirou train and that is a sort of a showstopper attitude to have in a story like UBW.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

You know, Aiko...
I really wanted to be killed by you.


F/Z (much like UBW) is a story about a clash of ideals more than anything else, and the major conflict revolves around two extremely anti-social individuals trying to figure each other out in the middle of a no-holds-bars battle between some of the most powerful entities in existance. To that end, I think Kiritsugu was a great character (and works best as a foil to Kirei, anyway). Outside of the flashback bits, you're not really supposed to empathize with him. It is fairly clear that he so internalized his philosophy as a means of maintaining his sanity in an unfair world. But while he was emotionally stunted, he was tactically brilliant. So, he wasn't just a useless lump.

Compare that to Shirou who is both emotionally stunted and tactically moronic. Sure, he has his moments to shine, but (especially during these first 7 eps of UBW), he can be seen as just dragging everyone else down while contributing absolutely dick to the fight at hand.

tl;dr, Kiritsugu and Shirou aren't really comparable because they follow two different character archetypes, and they serve different purposes in the stories they're portrayed in.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Xoidanor posted:

The grail neatly dissecting just how stupid his way of life had been with the rigged boat dilemma was no joke the best non-action part of Fate/Zero.

I love Fate/Zero because never had I seen a show which just unmercifully shat on a character archetype like Kiritsugu so loving thoroughly. It was beautiful. I laughed the entire way through because of how awesome the whole thing was.

Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Nov 24, 2014

PunkBoy
Aug 22, 2008

You wanna get through this?


The way Kiritsugu completely breaks by the end of that dissection and shoots (not) Illya was a great :tviv: moment. Helps that (not) Irisviel sells the poo poo out of her reaction.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Beef Waifu posted:

I love Fate/Zero because never had I seen a show which just unmercifully shat on a character archetype like Kiritsugu so loving thoroughly. It was beautiful. I laughed the entire way through because of how awesome the whole thing was.
Everything with Kariya was pretty great too.

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


I liked the part where he strangled not-Irisviel to death. It's a lot like the part where Kirei strangled Irisviel to death, except it's Kiritsugu instead. There's lots of strangling women to death in Fate/Zero. I guess technically Rin's mom doesn't die from the strangulation, but that's because it's more tragic for Rin to have to take care of her brain-damaged mom as a six-year-old.

EDIT:
I lied, sorry, I didn't like those parts at all. They made me very upset.

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Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Nate RFB posted:

Everything with Kariya was pretty great too.

I felt bad for the guy since he genuinely did love Rin and Sakura, but I do love how people did called him out. Fate/Zero aka, Y'all Are Trash. :allears:

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