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Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Well Zouken was one of the creators of the ritual so he has more leeway in that sense. And to be fair he's not the only one who tampers with the system, both Caster and Kayneth do that.

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Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Rodyle posted:

Well Zouken was one of the creators of the ritual so he has more leeway in that sense. And to be fair he's not the only one who tampers with the system, both Caster and Kayneth do that.

Oh, everyone tries to cheat, bending rules here and there, and the Einzberns have even made a habit of it, but they're always focused on having more or better Servants. The idea that Servants themselves are just a means to an end doesn't seem to occur to them. And given that, well, the Einzberns actually provide the vessel of the Grail every single war, you'd think that they would also have the means to tamper with it. Too proud for their own good.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Becouse if we have to have internet slapfight about Rider, lets have it here, rather than in UBW thread. :v:

Clarste posted:

2/3 of those things are "she's actually pretty strong, even though she loses immediately in other routes", and given that her finisher is somehow turning a horse into a laser, her fights are pretty damned boring? I mean, other than that the only I can remember her doing is using "Monstrous Strength" to overpower people with the chain. I have no idea what "advanced tactics" you could possibly be thinking of. She's "loyal and chill when outside combat", something she shares with Berserker, Caster, Lancer, Assassin, and who knows who else.

I guess it's possible some people really really like the sympathetic Medusa twist, but I'm pretty the real explanation involves boobs and costume design.

In Fate, she lures Saber outside of the enclosed space where Saber would shred her and then fights her on the side of the skyscraper which gives Saber a lot of trouble and allows Rider to fight equally with her, in UBW she hides in trees and takes potshot at Shiro instead of going straight at him and in final fight in HF she doesn't engage Dark Saber head on and instead zips around her and goes for attacks from awkward angles and other cheapshots. Its not much, but considering that most Servant fights consist of "charge the enemy head on, trade blows with him, the one that gets in disadvantage retreats and then either flees or uses his NP", it does make her stand out.

As for the actual character... Um, Lancer undermines Kotomine on almost every step and even kills him in one route, Caster does whatever the gently caress she wants, Assassin undermines Caster whenever he feels like it and Berserker is insane, so not really? The closest are probably Saber and F/Z Lancer, but even there are major differences because their loyalty comes from honor, while Rider doesn't give a single poo poo about honor, is loyal only to Sakura specifically, that loyalty is absolute and is more of a character flaw in contrast to the more positive depiction of Saber and F/Z Lancer loyalty.

I understand your bafflement over Rider though. Almost EVERYONE in F/SN has some pretty sizable fandom, so its pretty natural that there are few characters where you simply don't understand why do other people like them. I personally have no idea why would anyone like Gilgamesh. Or why is Rin so popular. :shrug:

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Saber lured Berserker to a graveyard where the tombstones would slow down his swings (marginally). Assassin fought on a narrow staircase where he had both the high ground and forced his opponents to go through him. True Assassin was constantly baiting people into traps. I don't think those strategies of Rider stand out at all. More like you forgot everyone else's strategies. Honestly, that's just the kind of fight Nasu likes to write. The "head-on clash" thing is mostly for when he wants one side to look invincible. And of course Rider slips comfortably back into that when she summons her laser-horse, whose effects are totally indistinguishable from Saber shooting Excalibur.

As for the other Servants, Lancer follows Kotomine's orders to the letter until he's betrayed, even tough he knows that Kotomine is an usurper who killed his real master and stole the command seals. That's a very "knight" mentality. He doesn't like the guy, sure, but he's loyal for the most part, except for that one time in Fate. This is pretty much the same "loyalty" as Rider following Shinji. Caster does everything she does for the sake of... teacher guy who I can't remember the name of. She wants to make him win so she can spend the rest of her life with him or whatever. Just because he never asked for it doesn't mean it's not for his sake. Honestly she acts exactly like Rider: Rider values Sakura's life more than she values Sakura's feelings, and will kill Shirou if he tries to help her commit suicide. Actually, Caster's extremely similar to Rider to the point where I think she makes Rider even more redundant. That's just me though. Berserker is insane, but also insanely loyal. They kinda make a big deal of this in HF. He gives his all to protect Ilya even when she begs him to stop because she can't stand to seem him die in vain like that. That's... pretty much the only characterization he has in the entire story.

I also don't think Rider's loyalty is ever portrayed as anything resembling a flaw. Heck, to get to the good ending you have to suck up to her. She essentially represents the same idealized "hero for only one person" that Shirou becomes in HF. While for Shiou that's portrayed as a compromise of his earlier ideals, Rider has no such conflict and as such gets off way easier. She even gets to stick around at the end in the super-happy ending. Not even a hint of sacrifice. Also Saber and Zero/Lancer get their honor completely poo poo on by the narrative so I'm not sure why you think it was portrayed as a good thing.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Nov 30, 2014

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Rin and Gilgamesh are good for a lot of humor.

"More interesting Saber" is a pretty good way to describe Rider all told. Like was mentioned in the UBW thread that in HF she's kind of like Saber without the righteousness, and I can't really see how that can be construed as a bad thing. Saber is so boring! "Dark action girl who is actually sort of nice" is a way better base to play off of than whatever role the lonely king is supposed to play. I think it's an interesting dynamic where she's jobbed so easily in the other routes only to finally shine when given a proper chance, such as coming to the rescue at the darkest hour right after Saber of all people is beaten by True Assassin. All told her futility in the other routes help sell her as an underdog story when all hope is seemingly lost in HF, and makes her team-up (one of the only proper team-ups IIRC in FSN) with Shirou against Saber all the more satisifying. And then she gets to hang around permanently after all is said and done, no strings attached. It's a neat mini-arc at the culmination of the whole story.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Uh, what did happen to Lancer at the end of Fate? All I can remember is him falling off the face of the plot barring a certain bad ending. :confused:

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


Xoidanor posted:

Uh, what did happen to Lancer at the end of Fate? All I can remember is him falling off the face of the plot barring a certain bad ending. :confused:

Gets wasted by Gilgamesh in the basement of the church after Kotomine, Saber, and Shirou all have a little chat.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


For the record, I think Saber is boring too, so being the same as Saber except less annoying just makes her more boring to me.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



I like Saber but Rin is the best of the three main heroines by a mile, she and Shirou are hysterical together because they're huge dorks.

Sylphid posted:

Gets wasted by Gilgamesh in the basement of the church after Kotomine, Saber, and Shirou all have a little chat.

IIRC doesn't he keep Gilgamesh busy for like, an entire day or something? Lancer's supposed to be the best of the original 8 (okay 9 but again, who cares about Skullamania) at "surviving."

e: Jesus Christ there is way too much boobchat in Hollow Ataraxia. Also Kogil apparently owns the water park. That's a weird thing.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Medusa is necessary in Heaven's Feel because her legend reflects Sakura's life.

She was greviously hurt, scorned for her injuries and exiled, turned into a monster, and then put down like a dog by the ones who first hurt her.

So when Sakura is in the throws of self loathing and doesn't want to live, Rider is able to say without ambiguity "I was in her place, even if she does not feel like she deserves happiness, she still truly wants it."

She doesn't have much of a character outside of this specific relationship, and I think her H/A scenes are split 50/50 good or terrible, but she does have a real thematic purpose in the novel.

As for her popularity, she's a big ol titty monster with optional blindfold or glasses.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Okay, I have to admit I never thought about it like that. I mean, it was obvious that her backstory was a reflection of Sakura's, but I never extrapolated that to imply that her opinion on the matter was worth any more than anyone else's. I never got the sense that any of her lines were particularly meaningful or powerful, but maybe I should replay the route with that in mind. If I ever have time.

I mean, she doesn't beat you over the head with like Archer's "you will not be rewarded for your path!" in UBW.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


@Clarste: The only reason Assassin was in such an advantageous position is because Caster put him there in the first place. He still surrender it in Fate to use his fancy super attack on Saber AND he surrenders it in UBW too, to have honorable duel with Saber if I remember correctly. True Assassin is a dick and the only other Servant to use some tactics and I like him for it, but is even more obscure than Rider and the only one other servant out of like 13 who does it regularly. Saber did that like...once out of all of her fights she was in and did it only after she charged headlong at Berserker first, meanwhile Rider does it in every major fight she is in. Most other Servants rely on their NP and their skill with weapons, while Rider relies on cheap attacks and exploiting terrain instead of her skill with weapons (because I am pretty sure she doesn't have any) , which makes her fights a bit different. And hey, when all you have is a laser horse, you gotta laser horse, tactics be dammed. Besides I don't understand that complaint, having flying horse that turns into laser is pretty drat cool.

Rider suffers Shinji because Sakura asks her to and doesn't even kill him or openly rebel, which is something that no other Servants ever would do. She also remains absolutely loyal to Sakura once she turns Dark, despite it being both kind of morally wrong and stupid. I don't really think that Shirou having to spend the whole route convincing Rider that he doesn't want to kill Sakura to get her to help him save Sakura and not murder him horrifically is showing Riders loyalty as a positive trait.

The other also has have some pretty good points (that I would hopefully mention too, if we kept the discussion going). So to summarize:

Rider is a darker and more interesting take on Saber archetype, has an interesting relationship with Sakura, is an underdog who seems weak and kind of evil in first two routes before showing her true colors in HF, has cool fights, good visual design, and yeah ok, she is an attractive woman with honking big tits clad in bondage gear. :v:

Basically, there are enough reasons for her popularity, even if you particularly doesn't care about her.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



I like how Rider has like 6 Noble Phantasms and none of them prevent her from dying like a chump three times

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013



That reminds me, how the hell can she do the Bloodfort thing? Is she a vampire, or is this yet another Medusa thing?

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

They gave her some sort of vampiric traits that I don't really whether there's any mythological basis for, but I think she's just a decent mage along with the other stuff.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


I just realized that my mythology posts didn't cover Bloodfort Andromeda. I'll probably add more Medusa-related stuff to them soon.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Hollow Ataraxia clarifies that Bloodfort is a recreation of the conditions of the Shapeless Isle at the time when Medusa was in her (loving RAD looking) monster form.

Myriad Truths
Oct 13, 2012


Clarste posted:

Okay, I have to admit I never thought about it like that. I mean, it was obvious that her backstory was a reflection of Sakura's, but I never extrapolated that to imply that her opinion on the matter was worth any more than anyone else's. I never got the sense that any of her lines were particularly meaningful or powerful, but maybe I should replay the route with that in mind. If I ever have time.

I mean, she doesn't beat you over the head with like Archer's "you will not be rewarded for your path!" in UBW.

It's because that part isn't spelled out until Hollow Ataraxia where Rider gets a lot more focus.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Yeah, I was kind of annoyed that the first Rider flashback featured Takeuchi indulging in his identical-twin fetish, but when it got serious it got good.



Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Myriad Truths posted:

It's because that part isn't spelled out until Hollow Ataraxia where Rider gets a lot more focus.

...so your answer is that she's actually really boring in HF, but gets more interesting in HA?

Myriad Truths
Oct 13, 2012


Clarste posted:

...so your answer is that she's actually really boring in HF, but gets more interesting in HA?

You seem to be under the impression that I'm some sort of slavering Rider fanboy instead of just clarifying something you missed.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Her narrative roles are mainly to have good fights and provide another perspective on Sakura and I think she does both of those things fine :shrug:

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Scrree posted:

Yeah, I was kind of annoyed that the first Rider flashback featured Takeuchi indulging in his identical-twin fetish

Posting this again because mocking Takeuchi for being creepy as hell never gets old:

http://www.tsukikan.com/misc/kanwatsukihime/09.html

quote:

Editor: The "twins" thing you were talking about earlier -- it seems like you really have a lot of fantasies toward twins.
Takeuchi: Well, it just so happens that my first love was a set of twins.
Editor: I see. Do you know anything about this, Nasu?
Nasu: We were in the same middle school, but not high school or university. So I'm not sure...
Takeuchi: It happened in middle or elementary school.
Nasu: ...seriously? (Laughs) There were twins in our school?
Takeuchi: Yes... there were.
Nasu: Well, this is all in his head, so what does it matter.
All: (Laugh)
Takeuchi: Now that I think about it, one of the twins was bright, and the other was kind of gloomy.
Nasu: You dreamed it.
Takeuchi: No I didn't!
All: (Laugh)
Takeuchi: They were much like Hisui and Kohaku, though. But about my fantasies... I really wanted to make Hisui and Kohaku erotic characters. So I thought about what sexually arousing characteristics they could have. They were maids, and being twins is kind of mysterious, so I wanted those elements in there.
Nasu: Always working on the catchiness.
OKSG: ...Maybe he's the catcher?
Nasu: Yeah, he's the catcher. (*7)
Takeuchi: I see. (Strained laugh)

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



If Takeuchi is the reason Hisui and Kohaku exist Clearly he is a positive influence :colbert: Kohaku's route will always be the best part of Tsukihime.

Well also that thing where he fed and clothed Nasu while the latter focused on his mysterious construction.

Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 1, 2014

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


My favorite scene from Tsukihime is still that time when the two serial killers met at ngiht and had a nice conversation.

Stall_19
Jan 2, 2013

Prodigy of Victor von Doom


They better do some good work with Kuzuki because they made Rider's death look like she had a battle with Berserker.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


I would like to think Kuzuki walked in to throttle Shinji for interrupting class and being a little poo poo even though he's really going by what Caster tells him to do.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...





Issei being part of Shirou's harem: Canon

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Hollow Ataraxia creates a backstory for Saber's antenna. I am oddly impressed by this.

FormerPoster
Aug 5, 2004



Hair Elf

Her ripping that little hair out during her restaurant worker scene in Carnival Phantasm is basically the best.

On the Rider note, I like her but I'd like her a lot more if she didn't spend her mortal hours dressing exactly like Steve Jobs.

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


Never leave Shirou and Rider alone, Sakura... all these F/HA moments were hilarious.

PunkBoy
Aug 22, 2008

You wanna get through this?


Naerasa posted:

Her ripping that little hair out during her restaurant worker scene in Carnival Phantasm is basically the best.

Also:


You really need the sad horn that plays when in pops out.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Oh boy a two day archery club training camp :suicide:

Maybe it'll turn out like the "date with Sakura" did and secretly be the best part of the game.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Oh just you wait.

You've already seen part of it. :v:

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...



HA did a pretty good job for Shinji even if he only appears in three scenes and two of them are jokes. :v:

He deciding to just break off from the toxic Matou family and move off on his own is probably the best choice for his future.

Weird BIAS
Jul 4, 2007

so... guess that's it, huh? just... don't say i didn't warn you.


I know F/SN is about cooking so what does Mapo Tofu say about Kotomine that makes Shirou freak out so much.

It's a delicious meal man.


e: Is he racfoodist against Chinese?

Weird BIAS fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 3, 2014

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Weird BIAS posted:

I know F/SN is about cooking so what does Mapo Tofu say about Kotomine that makes Shirou freak out so much.

It's a delicious meal man.
There are very few things that Kotomine would be passionate about. His wife is not one of those.

Nyaa fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Dec 3, 2014

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I hope there's some kind of alternate history fan fic where Shirou learned to cook Mapo Tofu, and turned Kotomine's life around.

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


I think it's specifically that the mapo tofu at that restaurant was supposed to be especially, inedibly, spicy because the owner put lots of peppers on everything. And then there was Kotomine scarfing it down without pause.

Mapo tofu IS really tasty, though! I ate some last weekend. It was way too hot (temperature-wise) to eat it like Kotomine, though. The roof of my mouth is still a little sensitive from eating it a little too quickly anyway.

Fangz posted:

I hope there's some kind of alternate history fan fic where Shirou learned to cook Mapo Tofu, and turned Kotomine's life around.

This sounds like doujin material if I've ever heard it. Shirou learns to cook mapo tofu the way Kotomine loves it, he moves in. This is how alt-universe BL Fate/stay night goes down.

jellycat fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Dec 3, 2014

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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Mapo Tofu is fantastic and also really easy to cook. It's definitely worth giving a try.

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