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Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

I always assumed he took the same approach with the Christian Church as he did with servants. Do a fair amount of research on the subject, and just keep it in mind as ideas.

Mind I don't remember much about what was said about the Church when talking with Caren. I mean she's an okay character when she's being wistful and casually bossing around some hyper badasses, but her background is aggressively terrible.

Twiddy fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Dec 6, 2014

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Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


I doubt Nasu doesn't know so much as he doesn't care, he'll just apply what he feels to the subject and that's that.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


"Mary Magdalene? poo poo son, gonna use that name for a piece of cloth that only binds men!"

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


I wonder why so many Japanese anime and games have such negative views about organized religion. When was the last time there was a priest who didn't turn out to be a crazed fanatic / pervert / villain of some kind? Is this a cultural thing? I get it that Christians et al are a vast minority there, but still.

Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011






There's also religion's place in global news and world history, of which a lot of the most interesting and salacious stuff tends to be pretty negative. And honestly you'll also get a lot of negative views about organized religion outside of Japan, too. It's common to a lot of increasingly secular cultures and Japan has been pretty secular since their modernization.

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008




Kubla Khan posted:

I wonder why so many Japanese anime and games have such negative views about organized religion. When was the last time there was a priest who didn't turn out to be a crazed fanatic / pervert / villain of some kind? Is this a cultural thing? I get it that Christians et al are a vast minority there, but still.

Asia has a long history of extremist minority religious groups. You can see it Japan with stuff like Aum Shinryuko, but also historically with poo poo like the Taiping Rebellion in China where a dude declared he was Jesus' brother and got enough followers to launch a massive civil war. Christianity acts as one of those cults; for example most Christians in Korea are of an extremely zealous, true believer bent

Asia and Confucian-influenced societies seem to have this weird dichotomy where public life in general is aggressively secular and non-religious, but people are extremely superstitous in specific ways. I think religion gets suppressed so it builds up and explodes in bursts

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Dec 6, 2014

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


T.G. Xarbala posted:

And honestly you'll also get a lot of negative views about organized religion outside of Japan, too. It's common to a lot of increasingly secular cultures and Japan has been pretty secular since their modernization.

I know, though it's not nearly as prevalent in Western culture. Not counting the obvious 'Christian movie' drek we still get the 'religious person going through a crisis of faith' type just as often as we get the straightforward villainous type, and sometimes even as the good guy (rarely, but still). I can't think of a single time in anime/game a person of faith didn't out turn to be of the very bad (either corrupt of overly zealous) kind.

We also have this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican%27s_list_of_films (esp. under the heading of 'Religion')
Most of which are actually very good movies.

icantfindaname posted:

Asia has a long history of extremist minority religious groups. You can see it Japan with stuff like Aum Shinryuko, but also historically with poo poo like the Taiping Rebellion in China where a dude declared he was Jesus' brother and got enough followers to launch a massive civil war. Christianity acts as one of those cults; for example most Christians in Korea are of an extremely zealous, true believer bent

Asia and Confucian-influenced societies seem to have this weird dichotomy where public life in general is aggressively secular and non-religious, but people are extremely superstitous in specific ways. I think religion gets suppressed so it builds up and explodes in bursts

I see, interesting stuff. The love for superstitious stuff may also go some way to explaining why so many anime/games feature Tarot, the Zodiac etc. (though, just like Christianity, 'featured' in only the most superficial ways).

Kubla Khan fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Dec 6, 2014

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Kubla Khan posted:

I can't think of a single time in anime/game a person of faith didn't out turn to be of the very bad (either corrupt of overly zealous) kind.

Nanoha?

Dragon Quest also consistently features Actually Heroic churches, and that's a huge title.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

Billy from Xenogears was a decent religious dude who ran an orphanage.

And then life took a massive liquid poo poo on him and everyone else he knew from his religion either got killed horribly or turned out to be evil.

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014



Interesting, in what way?

quote:

Dragon Quest also consistently features Actually Heroic churches, and that's a huge title.

I meant more as an actual 'person of faith' character with relevance to the story. Non-evil churches and token NPCs (as places to heal and do quests) are a thing in a lot of JRPGs. Again, I'm only speaking from my (very limited) experience, so it's entirely possible I've missed out on many titles with personalities that leave the exact opposite impression.

Pureauthor posted:

Billy from Xenogears was a decent religious dude who ran an orphanage.

And then life took a massive liquid poo poo on him and everyone else he knew from his religion either got killed horribly or turned out to be evil.

Yeah, this seems to be the more benevolent extreme. Can also think of FFT where some of the minor church pawns were the good guys (and then the awful thing happened).

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


Organized religion is "supposed" to be "good" (quotes because that's obviously a huge simplification), so it's very easy to establish it as such in fiction. Which then makes it a very cheap source of betrayal and drama.
Basically, evil church officials are easy to make interesting (even if they're predictable), much more so than good ones.

EDIT:
Also, are we talking like pastors and popes, or are we talking about characters who are religious in general? There are definitely religious characters who are supposed to be sympathetic.

jellycat fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Dec 6, 2014

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Well I mean the church faction in Nanoha and all associated characters are Good People consistently doing Good Things because their patron saint was also a Good Person who did Good Things. Meanwhile even the military the main characters work for has its darker sides.

Not really sure what else you'd want.

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


BlitzBlast posted:

Well I mean the church faction in Nanoha and all associated characters are Good People consistently doing Good Things because their patron saint was also a Good Person who did Good Things. Meanwhile even the military the main characters work for has its darker sides.

Not really sure what else you'd want.

I haven't seen Nanoha and reading the wiki summary didn't really help, so I asked to elaborate. The Saint Church does seem like a good subversion of this stereotype.


jellycat posted:

Organized religion is "supposed" to be "good" (quotes because that's obviously a huge simplification), so it's very easy to establish it as such in fiction. Which then makes it a very cheap source of betrayal and drama.
Basically, evil church officials are easy to make interesting (even if they're predictable), much more so than good ones.

EDIT:
Also, are we talking like pastors and popes, or are we talking about characters who are religious in general? There are definitely religious characters who are supposed to be sympathetic.

Yeah, more in the vein of people involved in organized religion.

I do really like the point you make about how easy it is to subvert something stereotyped as good and proper. Funny how it's been done so many times already that it's become a trope of its own.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Kubla Khan posted:

I know, though it's not nearly as prevalent in Western culture. Not counting the obvious 'Christian movie' drek we still get the 'religious person going through a crisis of faith' type just as often as we get the straightforward villainous type, and sometimes even as the good guy (rarely, but still). I can't think of a single time in anime/game a person of faith didn't out turn to be of the very bad (either corrupt of overly zealous) kind.

Are we just counting Christianity? Because I can think of dozens of shrine maiden/monk type characters. E.g. Sailor Mars.

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008




I think it's more specifically a dislike of charismatic religious leaders and strong irrational belief. Shrine maidens and Japanese religion is almost more of a public functionary type deal, like "the gods exist and we have to recognize them but don't interact with them beyond that or else" A priest actively trying to preach to people is a cult leader from the Asian perspective, a shrine maiden is just performing a necessary chore

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Is the church in TM really bad? Maybe they're over-aggressive, but vampire killing seems important and Kotomine isn't acting in their interests.

Or is there a twist where they're behind everything in Tsukihime, I never finished it

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

They're of the extremist "all non-humans must die and anything out of the ordinary is evil" kind, which kind of sucks when your cast is full of non-humans or wizards.

Chalupa Picada
Jan 13, 2009



Yeah they're a pretty sensible organization in the larger picture of the world, but given all of the shenanigans and oddball poo poo going on in all of the Type-mooniverse, they'd pretty much execute the whole cast of just about every show. Then again, the mages guild isn't really much better, I mean people like Shirou would've been a labrat or simply sealed for having a loving reality marble.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

That said they also exhibit a dose of pragmatism like going 'Oh gently caress it' after realizing nothing they have is going to do more than mildly annoy Arcueid and they pretty much ignore her when she shows up to go Roa-hunting.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Technically the Emperor is the leader of "State Shinto", but they never portray him in any story, as far as I can tell.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Also if christianity's primary purpose were to slay vampires I can imagine that it would develop differently.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



It's a little odd that nobody knew who Karen's dad was considering that both FSN and Fate Zero (which was written alongside HA) describe them as a proper married couple (and I can't imagine the Kirei of that time would have done things less than properly/wouldn't have told his dad that he had a kid).

e: The Church also has an odd position in that they're the only faction of note lugging around any sort of divine power anymore, outside of a few small clans like the Fraga.

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Hero of Justice is such an awkward phrase in english

i kinda prefer superhero from the vn, it sounds corny but it works better i think

point of return
Aug 13, 2011

by exmarx


Isn't there a weird trademark issue with the word "superhero" in the United States?

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Can't say I've heard of that, but it was a fan translation rather than something that's ever been sold so

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Irony Be My Shield posted:

Is the church in TM really bad? Maybe they're over-aggressive, but vampire killing seems important and Kotomine isn't acting in their interests.

Or is there a twist where they're behind everything in Tsukihime, I never finished it

BlitzBlast posted:

They're of the extremist "all non-humans must die and anything out of the ordinary is evil" kind, which kind of sucks when your cast is full of non-humans or wizards.

The only actual Church people we meet are either good guys like Ciel or traitors to the organization like Kotomine. Akiha claims they're full of fanatics, but we don't actually see any.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

So in like a thousand years from now is there going to be no magic around anymore? Is that what's happening? It seems like magic-users keep getting weaker as science advances, albeit with some super specialized powers. That kill you.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

You know, Aiko...
I really wanted to be killed by you.


icantfindaname posted:

Asia has a long history of extremist minority religious groups. You can see it Japan with stuff like Aum Shinryuko, but also historically with poo poo like the Taiping Rebellion in China where a dude declared he was Jesus' brother and got enough followers to launch a massive civil war. Christianity acts as one of those cults; for example most Christians in Korea are of an extremely zealous, true believer bent

Asia and Confucian-influenced societies seem to have this weird dichotomy where public life in general is aggressively secular and non-religious, but people are extremely superstitious in specific ways. I think religion gets suppressed so it builds up and explodes in bursts

For those who weren't aware, Aum Shinrikyo was the group behind the 1995 Tokyo subway sarin gas attacks. Asahara Shoko (their leader) was a blind farmer who claimed to be Jesus reincarnated and took a mishmash of apocalyptic imagery from Christian, Buddhist, and Shinto mythologies to preach the end of the world. The scariest part was that a majority of his followers were young disillusioned middle and upper middle class scientists and engineers.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Raenir Salazar posted:

So in like a thousand years from now is there going to be no magic around anymore? Is that what's happening? It seems like magic-users keep getting weaker as science advances, albeit with some super specialized powers. That kill you.

Depends on the timeline. In Extra's timeline, mana itself starts to go away in the 70s, in some timelines, Notes occurs, and in Notes the Six Sisters who lead the A-rays can use Sorcery.

The Evil Thing
Jul 3, 2010


Cake Attack posted:

Hero of Justice is such an awkward phrase in english

i kinda prefer superhero from the vn, it sounds corny but it works better i think

But... but my precious Nihongo. :cry:


I completely agree. I've brought this up with people several times in the past and I never got a coherent reason for choosing hero of justice over superhero. Did I miss some part of US society where "hero of justice" has great cultural cachet? Apart from being awkward, it robs the story of narrative weight.

Translating "seigi no mikata" as "superhero" was one of Takajun's best decisions in FSN. It gives us great insight into his character, since we can intuitively understand how weird it is.


point of return posted:

Isn't there a weird trademark issue with the word "superhero" in the United States?

If there ever was, it must be a genericised trademark at this point.

The Evil Thing fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 6, 2014

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

"I'll be your superhero" is a great line in HF and I can't even imagine how silly it would sound otherwise.

At least it's not the even more literal "ally of justice" I guess?

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


point of return posted:

Isn't there a weird trademark issue with the word "superhero" in the United States?

"Seigi no Mikata" means "Ally of Justice". At some point some translator made it into "Hero of Justice" and it stuck.
I couldn't pinpoint how, but it seems to be subtly different from the standard "Hero" (which is "Yuusha") or japan's perception of western heroes, aka superheroes (which are often called simply "Hero").

Yuusha is what they call the protagonist in JRPGs like Dragon Quest and such, btw. Hero is often used in westernized works (Tiger and Bunny, for example). Kamen Riders typically call themselves Seigi no Mikata.

E: I remember somebody explaining it that the core difference is that in japan the focus is in punishing those who have committed evil, whereas a superhero typically works to prevent evil from being committed in first place. The former takes losses and collateral damage as a given, while the latter takes it as a failure.

E2: In general FSN is pretty steeped in japanese subtleties we have no idea about, and they color the things Shirou says or thinks. Somebody bothered to explain it, in case anybody's curious.

Kyte fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Dec 6, 2014

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


I can be your hero, baby.

Stevefin
Sep 30, 2013



Now if only Crunchyroll would behave and work today

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Stevefin posted:

Now if only Crunchyroll would behave and work today

Its running slow as hell for me today for whatever reason. I usually don't have issues.

Stevefin
Sep 30, 2013



Better than me. Its just saying the page is not available

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Kyte posted:

E: I remember somebody explaining it that the core difference is that in japan the focus is in punishing those who have committed evil, whereas a superhero typically works to prevent evil from being committed in first place. The former takes losses and collateral damage as a given, while the latter takes it as a failure.
Yeah that's fantastic that that's how the meanings work in Japanese. In English though, we help get that idea across by saying superhero.

I mean you tell me superhero, and sure I think of the guy who beats the supervillain, but I also think of Superman flying around and fixing dams and poo poo.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Twiddy posted:

Yeah that's fantastic that that's how the meanings work in Japanese. In English though, we help get that idea across by saying superhero.

I mean you tell me superhero, and sure I think of the guy who beats the supervillain, but I also think of Superman flying around and fixing dams and poo poo.

I don't really care either way, I just started infodumping.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Cross-posting from the anime thread.

Silver2195 posted:

Yeah, they're not "really" those hair colors. Hollow Ataraxia has a character with hair described as red but drawn as purple, for example.

This actually leads to a minor plot hole involving one character's hair color, but it would be a big spoiler to explain it.

Specifically, Zouken changed Sakura's hair color from black to...black

Ciel's has black hair drawn as blue, while Akiha has black hair drawn as gray. Hisui and Kohaku are actual redheads, though.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Dec 6, 2014

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Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Silver2195 posted:

Specifically, Zouken changed Sakura's hair color from black to...black

Maybe one of those colors is just very dark brown?:shrug:

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