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Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


W.T. Fits posted:

Actually, now that I think about it, would Perseus even respond to a summons for the HGW? Since the dude got his happily ever after, is there even anything he'd want to wish for? Or would he just be like, "Nah thanks fam, I'm cool just chillin' out here in the Throne of Heroes"?

Also, a friend of mine said he would've gone for Jason, since presumably his Noble Phantasm would be the Fate equivalent of Knights of the Round - just summon all the Argonauts to show up and beat the poo poo out of whoever you're fighting. :v:

Yup. Perseus was in Fate/Prototype and his role in the story is surprisingly antagonistic. Like, he's not a bad guy, but circumstances drive him to do not so heroic things because he wants his Master to be happy.

And in Fate/GO you get a lot of Servants who are summonable, but not all of them want the Grail THAT badly.

Compendium fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Jul 31, 2017

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Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

And then you have guys like Cu who don't care about the Grail at all; they just think giant punch-ups between legendary figures are awesome and want in on the fun.

Trihugger
Jun 28, 2008

hello


The story in F/GO is about saving the world though and not about aquiring the grail. They just use the grail system for summoning. And time travel apparently.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


They make it a point where I think most of the Servants in FGO have a line where they answer aquestion regarding the Holy Grail; what they want from it, what they think about it, etc.

Nightingale's answer is somewhere along the lines of using it as a washing basin.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



W.T. Fits posted:

Also, a friend of mine said he would've gone for Jason, since presumably his Noble Phantasm would be the Fate equivalent of Knights of the Round - just summon all the Argonauts to show up and beat the poo poo out of whoever you're fighting. :v:
That's basically how Jason works in his plot appearance in Fate/Grand Order - near useless in a fight, but his noble Phantasm is the Argo, a constantly-active ship that is described as:

quote:

Argo - And the Ship Conquers
A ship carrying many Heroic Spirits from the Age of Gods. In short, an unassailable mobile fortress.
Glory and defeat spread before Jason like a scattered handful of coins.

Which gives me the impression that he just rides around on his ship with his argonaut buddies always around, but the only one who can go that far from the ship is Jason himself. Hercules pops out of it and nearly kills everybody.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


I got really confused for a second and questioned why would anyone summon voorhees

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Tae posted:

I got really confused for a second and questioned why would anyone summon voorhees
i mean a guy with a chainsaw that can't be killed would probably be pretty strong but he's too modern to have gained much power, unless you summoned him in america i guess

serefin99
Apr 15, 2016

Mikoooon~
Your lovely shrine maiden fox wife, Tamamo no Mae, is here to help!



Endorph posted:

i mean a guy with a chainsaw that can't be killed would probably be pretty strong but he's too modern to have gained much power, unless you summoned him in america i guess

Holy poo poo, Jason Vorhees being summoned as a Berserker would be amazing.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

W.T. Fits posted:

Actually, now that I think about it, would Perseus even respond to a summons for the HGW? Since the dude got his happily ever after, is there even anything he'd want to wish for? Or would he just be like, "Nah thanks fam, I'm cool just chillin' out here in the Throne of Heroes"?

Also, a friend of mine said he would've gone for Jason, since presumably his Noble Phantasm would be the Fate equivalent of Knights of the Round - just summon all the Argonauts to show up and beat the poo poo out of whoever you're fighting. :v:

Most servants don't really get a choice. Arturia in FSN was kind of an oddball in that she was specifically under contract with the world to seek the grail. There are plenty of servants who have little to no interest in the grail itself.

There are numerous things that can qualify someone from becoming a servant under normal conditions: anti-heroes weren't normally supposed to be summonable, divine spirits aren't summonable without some sort of trick, and there are a few figures who can't be summoned because they live immortally in some sort of sealed dimension. If they never die, they never go to the throne of heroes.

However, all of these restrictions get flaunted pretty much constantly. Fuyuki had anti-heroes because of Angra Mainyu, and by Extra Nasu seemed to just forget. Divine Spirits get summoned in FGO by tricks like Artemis latching on to Orion's summoning, or Ishtar becoming a Pseudo-servant, and there are plenty of Demigods like Herc and Gil who don't count. And still-living servants like Scathach and Merlin either die or make themselves summonable somehow for FGO.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



serefin99 posted:

Holy poo poo, Jason Vorhees being summoned as a Berserker would be amazing.
i ran a tabletop fate/ game where the berserker was the concept of horror movies, sort of like how nursery rhyme works. so he could turn into jason, freddy, the alien, the thing, etc. it was cool.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Bakanogami posted:

However, all of these restrictions get flaunted pretty much constantly. Fuyuki had anti-heroes because of Angra Mainyu, and by Extra Nasu seemed to just forget.

Extra gets around such because it's not REALLY summoning anyone, just creating copies in SERAPH based on observation data. The Moon Cell has been recording Earth forever, and SERAPH is a virtual space.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Hunt11 posted:

I haven't read the wiki but going from the Fate/Zero if all you had to do was do the ritual in the homeland, then why wasn't saber summoned as close as possible to where camelot would have been?

Because Kiritsugu was paranoid and probably figured the risk was too great and Northern Europe is pretty close as it is. This would explain most Masters not going out of their way to do so.

Mordred I think is implied to have gotten a boost from being summoned in England and fighting in Europe as she seems uncommonly strong to the Black faction.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Raenir Salazar posted:

This would explain most Masters not going out of their way to do so.
Usually the partecipants to the Fuyuki Grail war are chosen between magi or potential magi in Fuyuki.

You would need to
1) Go in Japan.
2) Stay there until the Grail choose you.
3) Go in the specific European country you need for your summoning
4) Go back to Japan.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

YggdrasilTM posted:

Usually the partecipants to the Fuyuki Grail war are chosen between magi or potential magi in Fuyuki.

You would need to
1) Go in Japan.
2) Stay there until the Grail choose you.
3) Go in the specific European country you need for your summoning
4) Go back to Japan.

Kayneth/Waver? They seemed like they were picked before leaving London.

There's usually it seems like a few Clocktower representatives who are allowed in to keep them off their backs who are picked before they leave.

Pierson
Oct 31, 2004





College Slice

Master selection process outside of the founders is apparently unknown but It'd be pretty funny if Justeaze as the core was choosing Masters most likely to gently caress with the ritual and get the whole thing over with.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Raenir Salazar posted:

Kayneth/Waver? They seemed like they were picked before leaving London.

There's usually it seems like a few Clocktower representatives who are allowed in to keep them off their backs who are picked before they leave.

Nope. Keyneth was chosen by the mage association to be their representative, and THEN he went in Japan to be chosen by the grail.
Waver also was chosen only when he was in Japan.
In the Fuyuki War the choice is entirely made by the Great Holy Grail. The only way to increase your chance to be a Master is to be as near as possible to Fuyuki or to be a member of one of the 3 founding families

By the way this is also the reason why the Grail chooses Shirou or Ryonosuke. They are the last availabe magi around the city,

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


The Grail also senses or something an eligible person's desires to see if they're worthy of it, which is how Kotomine ended up getting chosen. There's a number of factors going into how Masters are chosen (with special allowances for the three founding families, who always have representatives).

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

Raenir Salazar posted:

Because Kiritsugu was paranoid and probably figured the risk was too great and Northern Europe is pretty close as it is. This would explain most Masters not going out of their way to do so.

Mordred I think is implied to have gotten a boost from being summoned in England and fighting in Europe as she seems uncommonly strong to the Black faction.

Actually that was a stupid thing for me to bring up as there is an obvious reason why Kiritsugu didn't do it. He was an edgy rear end in a top hat who believes that he can do a better job winning the war then his servant can. If he had just given saber her scabbard he could have just stayed home with his daughter as saber singlehandidly carved up almost every other servant.

Wuxi
Apr 3, 2012



Raenir Salazar posted:

Mordred I think is implied to have gotten a boost from being summoned in England and fighting in Europe as she seems uncommonly strong to the Black faction.

Isn't she also just uncommonly strong thanks to being a literal Saber clone?


Hunt11 posted:

If he had just given saber her scabbard he could have just stayed home with his daughter as saber singlehandidly carved up almost every other servant.

I mean yes, but Saber with Avalon is about as broken as serious Gilgamesh and thats not a very interesting story.

Trihugger
Jun 28, 2008

hello


Speaking about breaking the rules of summoning, beyond the 2 Fuyuki wars it should be impossible to summon Artoria. Her spirit exists in Avalon not the throne of heroes. Her still alive spirit gets summoned to Fuyuki in her last living moments. It's how she still retains memories from the previous war when Shirou summons her. It's how she remembers Shirou at all and we get the extra ending for Realta Nua.

It's never really explained how the rules are bent or broken to summon OG Saber aside from the rule of popularity.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

Trihugger posted:

Speaking about breaking the rules of summoning, beyond the 2 Fuyuki wars it should be impossible to summon Artoria. Her spirit exists in Avalon not the throne of heroes. Her still alive spirit gets summoned to Fuyuki in her last living moments. It's how she still retains memories from the previous war when Shirou summons her. It's how she remembers Shirou at all and we get the extra ending for Realta Nua.

It's never really explained how the rules are bent or broken to summon OG Saber aside from the rule of popularity.

She rejects the Holy Grail in the Fate route, thereby breaking the contract with Alaya that would have her becoming a counter guardian. After all that she gets sent back to Camlann, dies for realsies there, and then becomes a normal Heroic Spirit.
Presumably at one point outside time she makes her way to Avalon and waits there for Shirou.

serefin99
Apr 15, 2016

Mikoooon~
Your lovely shrine maiden fox wife, Tamamo no Mae, is here to help!



Endorph posted:

i ran a tabletop fate/ game where the berserker was the concept of horror movies, sort of like how nursery rhyme works. so he could turn into jason, freddy, the alien, the thing, etc. it was cool.

Oh man, do you still have, like, the stats and stuff for that? Skills, Noble Phantasms, etc.? I'd love to see if I could con my friends into letting me summon that in our next Fate RP.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

YggdrasilTM posted:

By the way this is also the reason why the Grail chooses Shirou or Ryonosuke. They are the last availabe magi around the city,

My personal pet theory has always been that Shirou and Ryunosuke were related. We don't know anything about Shirou's family before he was adopted by Kiritsugu, but he does have some magical circuits, and isn't that in and of itself supposed to be rare? It would fit in with being from a fallen mage family like Ryunosuke is implied to be, having an old book on summoning in their storeroom and all.

Plus, they both have red hair, and that's how anime genes work.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



serefin99 posted:

Oh man, do you still have, like, the stats and stuff for that? Skills, Noble Phantasms, etc.? I'd love to see if I could con my friends into letting me summon that in our next Fate RP.
i didnt have it around but i slapped some stuff together based on my memories



rest is here in order to not clog up the thread with like eight photoshops. also i got lasy with the np image but eh

C-SPAN Caller
Apr 21, 2010





I just want to summon Caster/Savior Jesus of Nazareth already, Drifters has Jesus so why can't Fate. :colbert:

C-SPAN Caller fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jul 31, 2017

Freak Futanari
Apr 11, 2008


I wanna summon Ruler Hitler

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


Endorph posted:

i mean a guy with a chainsaw that can't be killed would probably be pretty strong but he's too modern to have gained much power, unless you summoned him in america i guess

jason doesnt use a loving chainsaw you goddamn scrub

here is an exhuastive list of jasons signature weapo

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Bakanogami posted:

My personal pet theory has always been that Shirou and Ryunosuke were related. We don't know anything about Shirou's family before he was adopted by Kiritsugu, but he does have some magical circuits, and isn't that in and of itself supposed to be rare? It would fit in with being from a fallen mage family like Ryunosuke is implied to be, having an old book on summoning in their storeroom and all.

Plus, they both have red hair, and that's how anime genes work.

Wasn't one of the big things in fate and a lesser extent UBW (in the VN) that he was constructing his magic circuits from scratch each time which was incredibly dangerous and idiotic and one of the many things Rin later berated him for?

Honest question, because I remember that being a big deal at one point and it didn't get brought up in the anime at all.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Stairmaster posted:

jason doesnt use a loving chainsaw you goddamn scrub

here is an exhuastive list of jasons signature weapo

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...a19XSpQSalPMUqQ

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


DamnGlitch posted:

Wasn't one of the big things in fate and a lesser extent UBW (in the VN) that he was constructing his magic circuits from scratch each time which was incredibly dangerous and idiotic and one of the many things Rin later berated him for?

Honest question, because I remember that being a big deal at one point and it didn't get brought up in the anime at all.

Shirou had a fundamental misunderstanding of how magic circuits worked, believing he had to assemble a magic circuit from scratch each time he wanted to practice magecraft. This made his daily training regime incredibly painful, dangerous, and inefficient. Rin does berate him for this, explaining magic circuits are something that's already there, so once you've identified and activated them the first time, you should be able to just turn them on and off like a switch whenever you wish.

In UBW he doesn't get to practice magecraft with Rin, instead, it is Archer who identifies what's wrong with his method and corrects him after Rin asks him to check him out (when Shirou loses sensation and fine motor control of his left side following the first time he projects K&B).

Note that he wasn't actually creating magic circuits during his training: the number and quality of magic circuits is something normally fixed at birth. What he was actually doing through his assbackwards training was causing his magic circuits to gradually fuse with his real nerves.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Ahhh. I was under the impression that part of the reason he was such a monster when fueled with sufficient mana was because he had constructed literally thousands of magic circuits that he was able to activate simultaneously later when he got proper instruction.


...


I'm a bit disappointed now, actually.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Nah, Shirou's aptitude for magecraft is impressive in the context of an individual not coming from an established family, but overall he's very mediocre as far as magi go.

What makes him exceptional is his unique talent for projection, product of the alignments of his non-standard elemental affinity and origin: if the Association got wind that he's able to create a reality marble, he'd immediately receive a sealing designation.

His whole point, as is Archer's, is that he's badass through discipline and determination rather than overall innate talent.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Aug 1, 2017

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011


Yeah when it comes to magic he's supposed to be that kind of guy who maxes the poo poo out of a single skill while negleting the others. I do wonder why the hell Kiritsugu gave him such a lovely training though

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk


College Slice

I remember reading somewhere that Shirou has a huge number of magic circuits but only like 2 of them are capable of doing anything but casting UBW, and they both suck at it

The second half of that is directly in the text of F/SN but I dunno where the fact that he has way more than most magi comes from

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Plutonis posted:

Yeah when it comes to magic he's supposed to be that kind of guy who maxes the poo poo out of a single skill while negleting the others. I do wonder why the hell Kiritsugu gave him such a lovely training though
Kiritsugu didn't want to train him, for fairly obvious reasons, but Shirou eventually badgered him into it. It isn't explained from there but I imagine Kiritsugu made it seem as painful and tedious as possible to try and ward Shirou off it, but of course Shirou is Shirou.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

Shirou is Megumin from KonoSuba only with swords instead of explosions.

He only does one thing but he does that thing very well.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk


College Slice

I think Kiritsugu probably also didn't really know how to train a mage with such specialized circuits. I think Shirou says at some point that he was much better at projecting from day one but Kiritsugu instructed him to do reinforcement instead because it was the only "basic" spell he was even capable of and Kiritsugu didn't even consider that normal teaching methods might be wrong in this case

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Kerry was also pretty weakened as time went on too, so I can imagine on top of everything else, he wouldn't have been able to be an effective teacher.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvY6YQH9kE4

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Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012



cheetah7071 posted:

I remember reading somewhere that Shirou has a huge number of magic circuits but only like 2 of them are capable of doing anything but casting UBW, and they both suck at it

The second half of that is directly in the text of F/SN but I dunno where the fact that he has way more than most magi comes from

I wouldn't say he has a huge number, but he does have a well above average amount - they're just of garbage quality. And it's actually on top of this that they're terrible for anything other than Projection, so even in his specialized field he's damaging his body to do what he does, along with needing an external power source (contracting with Rin in UBW, or Archer's arm in HF) to really do much.

As for where the information comes from, Nasu once tossed out that an average magus has ~20 circuits, whereas Shirou has 27. For comparison, both to him and an average magus, Rin has 40, of very high quality.

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