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Barent
Jun 15, 2007

Never die in vain.

Man this thread is reminding me that I need to read HF again or something. I totally forgot about all the intricacies of the Holy Grail and poo poo like that. Oh well

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Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Nate RFB posted:

If a Reality Marble is "just" a spell, and the underlying soul doesn't really matter, then why can't it be passed down like any other spell via a family magic crest? It should be possible with this line of thinking. Even if you go the route of "well, it's a spell that only works if you have the same aptitude/affinity/origin for the element in question" that doesn't explain how Shirou was unable to utilize Archer's UBW in Heaven's Feel. At the time he rejected it because Archer's world and Shirou's world were "different" and thus incompatible.

They aren't different actually, Rin mentions in HF True that Shirou can eventually achieve UBW.

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


I just kind of assumed that Shirou couldn't use Archer's Reality Marble because their life experiences were too different. He can still create his own Unlimited Blade Works eventually because of all (or some) of the nonsense we just beanplated to death, but Archer's was shaped by the ideals he upheld (and Shirou discarded).

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Effectronica posted:

So in other words, the three houses are guaranteed a position so long as they have someone who fits the criteria, but anyone who fits those criteria can join the war by summoning a Servant.
Shirou started getting a crest before he summoned a servant though, I always assumed from Ilya's threat that she had some hand in it.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Rodyle posted:

They aren't different actually, Rin mentions in HF True that Shirou can eventually achieve UBW.
Well yeah, he could eventually achieve his own. He's still basically the same person with the same sort of magic circuits and the same potential for sword projection and whatever, even with his puppet body. But he couldn't simply take a shortcut and hijack Archer's once he got the arm.

jellycat posted:

I just kind of assumed that Shirou couldn't use Archer's Reality Marble because their life experiences were too different. He can still create his own Unlimited Blade Works eventually because of all (or some) of the nonsense we just beanplated to death, but Archer's was shaped by the ideals he upheld (and Shirou discarded).
But that's my point, if it's "just a spell" then stuff about life experiences shouldn't matter. The only thing that seemingly should matter is knowing how the spell works and I suppose having some sort of affinity for the magic in question.

E: God this is nerdier than power level discussions. Next we should dissect the Shikis' mystic eyes.

Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Dec 17, 2014

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


Nate RFB posted:

But that's my point, if it's "just a spell" then stuff about life experiences shouldn't matter. The only thing that seemingly should matter is knowing how the spell works and I suppose having some sort of affinity for the magic in question.

Ah, well I'm saying that stuff about life experiences does matter and that's why it's not "just a spell"! You can't recreate someone else's Reality Marble through any amount of research because it's the manifestation of one's own unique inner reality. That's part of why the Mage's Association hunts down any magi who are capable of using a Reality Marble, it's why Shirou's Unlimited Blade Works is different from Archer's, and why he can't use Archer's in Heaven's Feel.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Irony Be My Shield posted:

Shirou started getting a crest before he summoned a servant though, I always assumed from Ilya's threat that she had some hand in it.

The grail played favorites and had already set aside the Saber slot for him. :v:

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


I think it's mega cool that Shiro's UBW is a barren field of swords compared to Archer's which has cogs and metal works going on with a thick layer of dust in the air.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Kyte posted:

The grail played favorites and had already set aside the Saber slot for him. :v:
I presumed that was causality wonkiness, sort of like how Rin's jewel ended up being a catalyst to summon Archer Emiya because it would be used to heal Shirou from near-death a few days later.

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Paracelsus posted:

I presumed that was causality wonkiness, sort of like how Rin's jewel ended up being a catalyst to summon Archer Emiya because it would be used to heal Shirou from near-death a few days later.

Not really certain on this one, but I've always though that it was Archer's pendant that made Rin summon him.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Rin used it to heal Shirou, who would I guess in one timeline kept it for the rest of his life and thus become attuned to him; thus in other timelines when she uses it to summon a Servant since its attuned to the Shirou that becomes Archer it summoned Archer.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Aumanor posted:

Not really certain on this one, but I've always though that it was Archer's pendant that made Rin summon him.

They both have the same pendant, basically. He gave his back to her after she uses hers on Shirou and he realizes finally where it came from, and Shirou keeps the one she left.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Aumanor posted:

Not really certain on this one, but I've always though that it was Archer's pendant that made Rin summon him.
Yeah supposedly the one Rin actually possessed during the summoning didn't matter at all. Well it matters insofar that it eventually becomes the pendant that Shirou/Archer would possess. But in terms of what actually served as the catalyst, it was the one Archer was hanging onto specifically.

quote:

"Tohsaka Rin did not have a catalyst to summon a heroic spirit.
Therefore, she thought that she had no connection with the Servant she summoned.
But no heroic spirit is summoned by chance. A physical connection is absolutely necessary between the summoner and the heroic spirit."

If he's right, there can only be one answer.
If Tohsaka did not have a catalyst connected to Archer, then...

"Yes. It is when the heroic spirit has a catalyst connected to the summoner."

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Endorsed by:
Pentecoastal Elites!
fart_man_69!
Terminal autist!
Ruzihm!
Judakel!
Dixon Chisholm!
Nix Panicus!
Neurolimal!

I was just thinking how if servants can be summoned from any point in time and the vast majority of servants (literally every one except archer?) come from the past, that means the world must be ending soon!

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

Ytlaya posted:

I was just thinking how if servants can be summoned from any point in time and the vast majority of servants (literally every one except archer?) come from the past, that means the world must be ending soon!

Modern humans can't become Servants (or at least it's a vanishingly small chance) because... something Alaya spread too thin, lack of fame, the weapon gets the credit now yadda yadda.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Well, setting aside the quirky circumstances behind how Archer got summoned how do you obtain a catalyst for a hero who doesn't yet exist?

KoB
Apr 30, 2009


Nate RFB posted:

Well, setting aside the quirky circumstances behind how Archer got summoned how do you obtain a catalyst for a hero who doesn't yet exist?

You cant know, because it hasnt happened yet. It could be anything.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


The hero'd need a catalyst for you. And the chances of that are vanishingly small.

Which is of course why Archer had one. :v:

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


It's also hinted in fate/extra that Archer's red cloth is made by Rin. It gives +100 MP, about 1/3 of a servant's MP.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Nyaa posted:

It's also hinted in fate/extra that Archer's red cloth is made by Rin. It gives +100 MP, about 1/3 of a servant's MP.

I recall Nasu mentioning he got it from Ciel at some point.

Soylentbits
Apr 2, 2007

im worried that theyre setting her up to be jotaros future wife or something.

Rodyle posted:

I recall Nasu mentioning he got it from Ciel at some point.

There's no reason why both explanations can't be right. There are a lot of parallel universe Archers.

jellycat
Nov 4, 2012

it's a nice day


Rin makes Archer's cloak, but it gets lost in the mail and Ciel gets it instead, then she delivers it to him.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

I could be simply that Ciel gets the cloth for it, and that Rin tailors it into a cloak. Cause it was apparently originally a holy shroud.

Soylentbits
Apr 2, 2007

im worried that theyre setting her up to be jotaros future wife or something.

Myurton posted:

I could be simply that Ciel gets the cloth for it, and that Rin tailors it into a cloak. Cause it was apparently originally a holy shroud.

However Rin is horrible with sewing machines, accidentally cuts the drat thing into 3 pieces, and then gives the mangled piece of fabric to Shirou. Shirou fixes it and puts it over a back bodysuit to hide how ridiculous it looks otherwise. Rin takes credit.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

So yesterday I watched Fate/Zero with my brother, whose only other Type-Moon experience has been watching the UBW anime with me and our sis every Saturday. He has a pretty negative opinion of UBW - basically saying that the fights are cool but the characters act in dumb and contrived ways (which is totally true for the first half of UBW), but he absolutely loved the first five episodes of Fate/Zero. He laughed for a minute straight when it was shown that Kiritsugu fights with guns, and all he could talk about when we finished watching was how awesome Rider is.To be fair, he said that having already watched the slower UBW anime let him jump into the much more chaotic F/Z without having to try and figure out what the Servant classes are or what the hell a Noble Phantasm is.

Hilariously, he totally hasn't connected the Golden Haired Guy talking to Shinji in UBW 10 to Gilgamesh in F/Z, so he keeps speculating how Gil is going to be defeated since Gate of Babylon seems so overpowered.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Scrree posted:

So yesterday I watched Fate/Zero with my brother, whose only other Type-Moon experience has been watching the UBW anime with me and our sis every Saturday. He has a pretty negative opinion of UBW - basically saying that the fights are cool but the characters act in dumb and contrived ways (which is totally true for the first half of UBW), but he absolutely loved the first five episodes of Fate/Zero. He laughed for a minute straight when it was shown that Kiritsugu fights with guns, and all he could talk about when we finished watching was how awesome Rider is.To be fair, he said that having already watched the slower UBW anime let him jump into the much more chaotic F/Z without having to try and figure out what the Servant classes are or what the hell a Noble Phantasm is.

Hilariously, he totally hasn't connected the Golden Haired Guy talking to Shinji in UBW 10 to Gilgamesh in F/Z, so he keeps speculating how Gil is going to be defeated since Gate of Babylon seems so overpowered.

That last part is definitely chuckle worthy. Gotta wonder what your bro will feel like when F/Z ends and everyone dies.

Randomzx
Jul 26, 2007


Lt. Lizard posted:

I don't think Tokiomi knew that Zouken never intended to make Sakura a heir and was turning her into a disposable grail vessel for the next Grail War and would definitely have some issues with that, but I bet he knew all about Zouken rape worms and what it takes to grant the Matou magic to someone and just considered it a fair price for becoming the heir of a major Magi family.

He knew that Zouken existed, he wasn't surprised about Kariya's use of rape worms when they fought each other, Matou family was living on Tohsaka lands for probably hundreds of years and were close allies and most importantly, I really doubt Tokiomi would give his daughter to a Magi family if he wasn't sure that she would be getting the real deal and that they possessed a powerful magecraft that she would inherit.

Basically Tokiomi was a dick.

There's also the issue of the sealing designation:

from the F/Z LN:

quote:

If only he would be able to pass the treasure that he got from his father onto his daughter –
Tokiomi thought sadly.
However, that was already impossible to be achieved.
For Rin and Sakura, there were no choices for them in the first place.
One of them has all elements, having five multiple elements as her alignment. The other has
no elemental alignments, having Imaginary Numbers only. Both sisters have a rare potential
that can be equated to miracles. This had surpassed the limits of so-called natural talents or
inborn skill; it is almost like a curse.
A magical nature would equally gather magical powers to it. Prominent people who are far
outside the rules inevitably ‘gather’ equally extraordinary experiences. This can not be
controlled by the person’s own will. There is only one way to deal with this kind of a destiny
– consciously walk away from the rules yourself.
Apart from understanding and practicing the way of magecraft themselves, there are no other
ways to deal with the magical powers hidden in the blood of Tokiomi’s daughters. Moreover,
the protection of the Tōsaka house can only be endowed on one of them. This fact tormented
Tokiomi for a long time. The one who did not become the inheritor would get mired in all
kinds of odd evens due to her own blood, and trouble wound find her. If the Association
found this kind of ‘ordinary humans’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in
formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’.
Precisely because of that, it was nothing better than a godsend for the Matō house to hope to
have Sakura as their adopted daughter. He had obtained the way to have both his beloved
daughters inherit first-class magecraft, unconstrained by their bloodline’s consequence, and
carve out their own lives. At that time, Tokiomi could be said to be freed from the heavy
burden of being a father.

And Tokiomi doesn't know the exact nature of Kariya's magic, typical magi family knowledge are kept as secrets. So he would definitely wouldn't know about the more extensive procedure done especially for Sakura.
And Zouken wasn't preparing Sakura for the next grail war, 1) he was more planing for the generation after Sakura, 2) the next grail war happened too soon for his plans (due to the leftover excess mana) 3) He only thought about using some pieces of the lesser grail when it was deliberately destroyed. That was why he was fine with Sakura not involving in the 5th grail war.

Randomzx
Jul 26, 2007


BlitzBlast posted:

They're of the extremist "all non-humans must die and anything out of the ordinary is evil" kind, which kind of sucks when your cast is full of non-humans or wizards.

But the Executors and Burial Agency generally welcomes all sorts of freaks, for example, Merem Solomon one of the Dead Apostle Ancestors is an official member of the Burial Agency.

Randomzx
Jul 26, 2007


Sergeant_Crunch posted:

I really didn't think this fight was bullshit at all. He had the advantage of surprise, which is his specialty as an assassin. He had the skill to match a legendary warrior from his years of being a professional killer. Plus his attacks were being visibly strengthened by Caster who, if you don't remember, is a servant whose main specialty is magic. It's not really crazy that he could match a servant under those conditions.

quote:

Kuzuki was an assassin trained from birth to learn nothing but the same technique. His snake fist was specifically stated to be able to even deceive expert fighters. But since it is a technique of deceit at heart, experts fighters can easily learn to deal with it after witnessing it.
Even a hand to hand expert like Bazett would be deceived by it. And when he is buffed by Caster....

quote:

Comptiq 2006-07 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A:
Q: If Bazett and Kuzuki got in a hand-to-hand fight against each other, who would win?

A: If it's the first fight, then Kuzuki will win. If it's the second fight, then Bazett would pretty much completely win.
Kuzuki could even drive Saber into a corner as long as his trick was kept hidden, but Bazett is also an expert at hand-to-hand combat thought of and developed by human beings. There's the possibility that she might adapt to Kuzuki's "snake" quicker than the Servants, who are more emphasized by their talent. However, since she might underestimate Kuzuki-sensei as being a normal person, Bazett could be beaten pretty simply.

and Caster's reinforcement magic does buff his physical capabilities, including speed.

quote:

Fate/Side Material - Encyclopedia: Reinforcement [Magecraft], p.058-059
Reinforcement [Magecraft]
An elementary spell that was extremely difficult to master.
Even though elevating the target's existence through the infusion of mana was the basis of all magecraft, due to the high degree of freedom and lack of concrete protocols, there were very few users who could reinforce everything.
Shirou of course was only a half-baked user who could only reinforce weapon-related objects.
Since Reinforcement enhanced the target's meaning of existence, knives would become sharper, food would become more nutritious, and maids would become more moe.
It was impossible to reinforce something that was exceedingly vague.
By the way, it was difficult to infuse another living being with one's mana, thus Reinforcement of another human was a spell of highest difficulty.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Man, I knew the F/Z novels had a subpar translation but I didn't think it'd be that bad.

Randomzx
Jul 26, 2007


Pureauthor posted:

Modern humans can't become Servants (or at least it's a vanishingly small chance) because... something Alaya spread too thin, lack of fame, the weapon gets the credit now yadda yadda.

It have to due more with the cynicism of modern humans, heroic spirits are shaped by the people's perception of the heroes at the the time. Modern humans are far less likely to believe in supernatural or superhuman capabilities so they don't think any of the 'heroes' are beyond human abilities. You need to be actually Superhuman/Supernatural or have the people of the era to believe that you are to qualifies (I think being worshipped is an optional requirements). And modern weapons made many feats less impressive to people. For example it is incredible for a human with a sword to kill 500 people, but it is far less impressive to do that with a machine gun.

Counter Guardians are typically a different case though.

Randomzx fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Dec 19, 2014

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



I like the parts of UBW when they draw Archer to look like Shirou because he still looks like archer when they do it and it's cool

this is one of the many things im looking forward to seeing adapted, thanks for listening

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Here's a list of some of the things I'm really looking forward to being animated:

- Unlimited Blade Works
- Archer and Shirou's duel
- Shirou's Unlimited Blade Works

in the HF movies

- Nine Bullet Revolver
- The sparks liner high OVA which they will make
- kotomine and shirou having a fist fight to the death while shirou turns into swords

some epic stuff ahead, fellow anime fans

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009



Cake Attack posted:

Here's a list of some of the things I'm really looking forward to being animated:

- Unlimited Blade Works
- Archer and Shirou's duel
- Shirou's Unlimited Blade Works

in the HF movies

- Nine Bullet Revolver
- The sparks liner high OVA which they will make
- kotomine and shirou having a fist fight to the death while shirou turns into swords

some epic stuff ahead, fellow anime fans

I'm excited.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


As am I.

Barent
Jun 15, 2007

Never die in vain.

After having watched F/Z with me and now UBW with me, my friend also thinks Shirou is a boring character and that Kiritsugu is better. I just don't understand this but I guess it's hard to detach myself since I've played the VN

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Cake Attack posted:

Here's a list of some of the things I'm really looking forward to being animated:

- Unlimited Blade Works
- Archer and Shirou's duel
- Shirou's Unlimited Blade Works

in the HF movies

- Nine Bullet Revolver
- The sparks liner high OVA which they will make
- kotomine and shirou having a fist fight to the death while shirou turns into swords

some epic stuff ahead, fellow anime fans

There's also "Lance of sure hit, shield of no loss", as far as flashy fights go. But what I'm looking forward to the most is "End of a hero".

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Aumanor posted:

There's also "Lance of sure hit, shield of no loss", as far as flashy fights go. But what I'm looking forward to the most is "End of a hero".

i don't remember what either of these are, lol, but they sound epic

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

The first one I think was the showdown between Lancer and Archer where Lancer throws Gae Bolg and Archer projects that shield thing. Think the other one was Berzerker's death.

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GhostStalker
Mar 26, 2010

Guys, find a woman who looks at you the way GhostStalker looks at every bald, obese, single 58 year old accountant from Tulsa who managed to win $4,000 by not wagering on a Final Jeopardy triple stumper.

Aumanor posted:

There's also "Lance of sure hit, shield of no loss", as far as flashy fights go. But what I'm looking forward to the most is "End of a hero".

Cake Attack posted:

i don't remember what either of these are, lol, but they sound epic

I think the former is Archer vs Lancer with thrown Gae Bolg vs Rho Aius, which will be amazing animated.

End of a Hero is when Lancer is told to kill himself via Kotomine's Command Seal, stabs himself, offs Kotomine, scares off Shinji, rescues Rin, and finally starts the fire before dying that burns down Einzbern Castle and drives off Gil when he's about to kill Shirou at the conclusion of his battle with Archer because he doesn't want to get ash on his clothing. I hope they devote the better part of an episode to that entire scene.

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