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Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

It has been repeated ad nauseam for years and it always, always comes down to one of the parties going "well, I didn't play the VN". It is the most boring and tedious T-M conversation that is possible to hold.

E: To clarify I am not saying that there aren't conversations that can be held on the ups and downs, good and bad points, of Shirou's character and arc, but it has become abundantly clear to me over the years such back and forths go loving nowhere or actually tread meaningful ground when one or more of the participants haven't actually read the VN.

Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Dec 15, 2017

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Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


The ufotable anime had a pretty great trauma face though. Sadly I can't retrieve it on phone. It's when he's talking to Rin about the fire though.

Kyte fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Dec 16, 2017

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


I really like the one time in the UTW anime where he sees Ilya + Berserker fighting Gil and he completely loses his poo poo. It really sold me on "this character is not aware of some of the forces that drive him"

Some of the slower everyday-life things in the earlier episodes of the adaptation are really nice too. I can't help but think that I want to like Shirou a lot more than I actually do.

Randallteal
May 7, 2006

Good night, sweet prince, And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest

The nicest thing I can say about Shirou is the other human dudes in Fate are much worse, and it's cute when he gets mad when Rin makes fun of him. Mostly he's just kinda boring.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



From my understanding, Shirou was the only survivor in the fire, which cause him to have survivor guilt that he shouldn't be the only alive, and need to do something to amend such a gift of life and luck.

kiritsugu being the right person to taught him the idea of Hero of Justice, whom is someone who will saves others, fits perfectly to the need of Shirou. It have become his coping mechanism for the guilt.

His mind have long since been broken during the fire, and was never heal up to the point of the Grail War. He only lives for other and not for himself because he doesn't feel there is a need to serve yourself, and thus he never capable of saving himself. He lives everyday for someone's sake: Helping issei and anyone who are in needs, and performing dangerous 'magic' training on his body to prepare for the day he can be of use to someone. He NEEDS to save people and don't want to get hurt because that will trigger his mental flashback of guilt. He have to do it, and he don't care about his life even if he have to suicide. He can't live with himself if he failed to saves someone.

As for the woman talk, he's just making up any reason to keep Saber alive.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

The UBW anime makes it pretty clear that Shirou is not quite right. He literally needs a trigger warning for happiness because people suggesting he do things to enjoy himself gives him horrible flashbacks.

If nothing else the abridged version demonstrates that the character works fine with the misogyny excised and the next six adaptations should follow them in removing it.

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008






Gravy Boat 2k

Nate RFB posted:

It has been repeated ad nauseam for years and it always, always comes down to one of the parties going "well, I didn't play the VN". It is the most boring and tedious T-M conversation that is possible to hold.

E: To clarify I am not saying that there aren't conversations that can be held on the ups and downs, good and bad points, of Shirou's character and arc, but it has become abundantly clear to me over the years such back and forths go loving nowhere or actually tread meaningful ground when one or more of the participants haven't actually read the VN.

They ain't coming back. Maybe post this next time instead of being a butt. Taking the mega out of megathread.

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

Rand Brittain posted:

The UBW anime makes it pretty clear that Shirou is not quite right. He literally needs a trigger warning for happiness because people suggesting he do things to enjoy himself gives him horrible flashbacks.

If nothing else the abridged version demonstrates that the character works fine with the misogyny excised and the next six adaptations should follow them in removing it.

I thought the misogyny from Shirou mostly resolved about Saber fighting, and the one time in UBW he tells her not to fight is against Gilgamesh for he is the only one who can actually counter him.

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010


My favorite thing about Shirou is how first thing he does after getting revived from Lancer stabbing him is clean up the mess. He has a lot of great character moments, but that's one of the earliest and more memorable ones for me.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Nyaa posted:

From my understanding, Shirou was the only survivor in the fire, which cause him to have survivor guilt that he shouldn't be the only alive, and need to do something to amend such a gift of life and luck.

kiritsugu being the right person to taught him the idea of Hero of Justice, whom is someone who will saves others, fits perfectly to the need of Shirou. It have become his coping mechanism for the guilt.

His mind have long since been broken during the fire, and was never heal up to the point of the Grail War. He only lives for other and not for himself because he doesn't feel there is a need to serve yourself, and thus he never capable of saving himself. He lives everyday for someone's sake: Helping issei and anyone who are in needs, and performing dangerous 'magic' training on his body to prepare for the day he can be of use to someone. He NEEDS to save people and don't want to get hurt because that will trigger his mental flashback of guilt. He have to do it, and he don't care about his life even if he have to suicide. He can't live with himself if he failed to saves someone.

As for the woman talk, he's just making up any reason to keep Saber alive.
He feels he doesn't deserve to be happy, not after seeing the faces of all those people begging for aid during the fire and which he was forced to ignore to keep moving. His hero complex is (among other things) more or less a subconscious need to make up to those people.

boredsatellite
Dec 7, 2013



Cephas posted:

I really like the one time in the UTW anime where he sees Ilya + Berserker fighting Gil and he completely loses his poo poo. It really sold me on "this character is not aware of some of the forces that drive him"


Seriously that was good characterization. Shirou was prepared to jump down to Gil and fight him even if it meant death and Rin had to hold him down

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


shirou isnt a misognyst because he gets worried about saber being injured because he doesnt seem to give a gently caress everytime rider or caster gets brutally murdered

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Shinjobi posted:

They ain't coming back. Maybe post this next time instead of being a butt. Taking the mega out of megathread.
Yeah I was definitely being a bit glib there. I think the UBW anime thread just kind of permanently broke me on the subject.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012



More to the point, in the same route people always complain about his "misogynistic" tendencies, he says absolutely nothing about Rin, who is incidentally far, FAR weaker than Saber, directly challenging Heracles to buy time. Huh, imagine that. And funnily enough that still exists in the DEEN anime.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


"Shirou is misogynistic" is the most boring poo poo that keeps being brought up by people who don't bother to read between the lines, whether they read the VN or only watched the anime and that aspect kind of sheds itself in the stories anyways due to the crazy poo poo going on.

I like Shirou because he is good at cooking and cleaning and being a housewife and my heart is warmed whenever I see him with his (mostly lady) company because at least he has a family!!! He's imperfect as gently caress and probably does edge towards too much of being a bland harem dude at times, but he has stuff that makes him tick and how it's dealt with in the three routes is interesting especially in Heaven's Feel.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

"Shirou is misogynistic" and "Shirou is a complicated character" and "Shirou is good, actually" do not have to be mutually exclusive concepts

It's not impossible to imagine someone being put off from the series by how he acts in the Fate route because of hiding any kind of actual insight into his character until a thousand words later. Hell, I thought he profoundly sucked the entire way through that route but people told me he got better, and while he does I couldn't begrudge anyone wanting to tap out before then.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Blockhouse posted:

"Shirou is misogynistic" and "Shirou is a complicated character" and "Shirou is good, actually" do not have to be mutually exclusive concepts
See the narrator in Fight Club.

Blockhouse posted:

It's not impossible to imagine someone being put off from the series by how he acts in the Fate route because of hiding any kind of actual insight into his character until a thousand words later. Hell, I thought he profoundly sucked the entire way through that route but people told me he got better, and while he does I couldn't begrudge anyone wanting to tap out before then.
Yeah I've only seen the anime and done a goodly portion of the fate route. He is by no means the most unpleasant light novel protagonist, but he is among the most boring.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk


College Slice

Shirou chooses to express "I can't allow anyone to put themselves in danger that I could take instead" as "Saber I can't let you fight you're a girl" so he has some issues with gender even if that's not all that's going on

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

Terrible Opinions posted:

See the narrator in Fight Club.

Yeah I've only seen the anime and done a goodly portion of the fate route. He is by no means the most unpleasant light novel protagonist, but he is among the most boring.

"worst VN protagonist" is a loving race to the bottom I never want to consider

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk


College Slice

Fate route is legitimately actually bad imo mostly because Shirou is terrible in it and Saber is the least interesting F/SN heroine by a mile

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

The biggest problem with the Fate route especially on replay is how much exposition it has (arguably understandable why, but still) and its pacing. It spends so much capita and gravitas on elements that anyone with even a passing semblance of knowledge of the series has known for years and is barely worth discussing at large compared to the rest of the story.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



cheetah7071 posted:

Fate route is legitimately actually bad imo mostly because Shirou is terrible in it and Saber is the least interesting F/SN heroine by a mile
i wouldn't really call it bad - even if it the game were just the fate route it'd have a neat premise, some good side characters, and a few legitimately affecting moments, Most notably the

"Can you stall them?"
"Stalling them is one thing, but it's fine if I win, right?"

exchange.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk


College Slice

It'd be a decent action story with a ton of cool moments but bad pacing and all the coolest characters shunted to side roles while it focuses on the most boring ones. Like, it's readable in that state but I wouldn't ever recommend it to anyone.

e: yeah I've been steeped in fate poo poo for so long I've forgotten how cool reading the premise for the very first time must be so I'll up it from "bad" to "mildly good"

cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Dec 16, 2017

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Eh, even in Fate route Rin, Archer, and Ilyasviel get a good amount of screentime, and those three are good characters even in Fate route. I'd mention it in lists of decent VNs, especially considering how few translated VNs actually have decent action scenes.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

I would argue that Fate doesn't really focus on anyone other than Saber. You don't learn anything major about any other character, except maybe Gilgamesh who is really kind of self-explanatory. Everyone else has important context that just doesn't show up till UBW or HF.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


UBW is the best route because it has my husband Cu and he doesn't go down like a chump like my other husband Diarmuid

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk


College Slice

Lancer's bad luck stat extends to his luck getting screentime unfortunately

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Bad luck Lancer club, members: Cu Chulainn, Diarmuid, Hektor.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



you can't take about Fate having bad pacing in a game where Heaven's Feel also exists

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk


College Slice

At least Heaven's Feel has an incredible payoff

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

MonsieurChoc posted:

Bad luck Lancer club, members: Cu Chulainn, Diarmuid, Hektor.

Vlad, Karna, Fionn...

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Enkidu...

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I like Heaven's Feel. Or at least I did like 10 years ago when I read it.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Terrible Opinions posted:

Yeah I've only seen the anime and done a goodly portion of the fate route. He is by no means the most unpleasant light novel protagonist, but he is among the most boring.

Shirou is incredibly interesting from a literary standpoint, because a competent and engaging story of FSN's breadth that is for the most part a character study of an static protagonist is like, goddamn.

Normal, bland, is protagonists getting character development and a little growth through their story arc. They learn a lesson about life, or friendship, and become the hero that saves the day, yay.

Shirou does not work like that.

Shirou's entire story arc throughout Fate and UBW is, in the face of self-discovery, to double and triple down on remaining his own broken self - and doing so with downright heroic determination. Do we forget how much of a badass he is? He gets his little get out of jail card in Avalon, but even then all that keeps him alive and conscious as we're described in excruciating detail how his bones and organs knit themselves back together, or how he fries his nerves performing magecraft, is sheer willpower.

And then we get Heaven's Feel. Fate and UBW endeavor to tell us how Shirou's housewife shenanigans and childish aspirations are just an endearing wrapping around a person that's broken inside, but then along comes HF and sheds light on there being more nuance to that, because of course there's more to it. How Shirou is indeed messed up, but his harem romcom protagonist daily life is as important a part of him as everything else - you could argue eventually leaving that behind is what truly sets him down the path of becoming Archer. And Nasu decides "hey, let's threaten that directly!" and the whole house of cards comes crashing down. For the first time Shirou changes, acknowledges something about himself and makes a small change, a priority shift, but continuing on the path he set out for himself on his father's deathbed is such a fundamental part of his identity that the decision quite literally destroys him.

But boy, does he go out with a bang.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Dec 16, 2017

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Having a huge amount of explanation as to why something is boring does not negate it being boring in the first place. Also a static character examined in excruciating detail is fairly common in novels, particularly long ones.

Wuxi
Apr 3, 2012



Shirou is good. Archer is better though.

Also Fate is the best route, because its the only loving route where he gets a happy ending, no caveats, no future doom.

Hommando
Mar 2, 2012


Heaven's Feel had a happy ending even though Shirou turned into a sentient mannequin. He also gets to live with Rider who is the best girl.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Clarste posted:

I like Heaven's Feel. Or at least I did like 10 years ago when I read it.
Having replayed all of FSN following the UBW anime, it and UBW hold up quite well. The middle HF section still drags enormously but the start and obviously the end are still very strong.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



The only part of FSN where I legit stopped reading for a while from disinterest was during the fights with kizuki in UBW because in the VN they are so laboriously described and it isn't immediately apparent why everyone is getting chumped by a fuckin history teacher.

Fate was fine, though again I thought the fight sequences were kinda lackluster initially (My first and just previous VN was MLA so I feel like I was a bit spoiled in that regret.

I think UBWanime suffers heavily from being an adaptation of a first person perspective work that is specifically dealing with that character working through things, and having read that before hand. Independent of the VN, I think that shiro is probably more boring than the events occurring around him without getting to see his own thought processes and just his actions, but even still is a more complex character on screen than many many shounen protags.

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Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Fate's romance gets a lot better when you realize that Saber's the repentant protagonist, and Shirou is the tsundere girlfriend.

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