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MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


100 degrees Calcium posted:

Maybe I should be. I'm just doing a walkthrough to gun through this thing because I don't really have any instincts for VNs. I'm really interested in the stories and most of the characters. I'm aggravated by protracted meal scenes that just showcase how zany Taiga is. But then, I get that's the cost of participating in a contemplative anime story.

But, you have to collect all the death stickers!

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Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Endorph posted:

generalizations about anime are bad, imo, and while fate is overlong the homelife stuff would be the last thing id cut.
No of course not, you cut the repeating exposition and cut down the really long boring laser fights.

I will generalize anime just as much as I generalize YA fiction and Hollywood movies, thank you very much. :colbert:

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





MonsieurChoc posted:

But, you have to collect all the death stickers!

I'm confused. Am I really missing out here?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



100 degrees Calcium posted:

I'm confused. Am I really missing out here?

The taiga dojos are funny surreal gags and offer a few insights into the writing process and theres a decent epilogue unlocked by getting them all. The epilogue offers no plot info whatsoever and is just an emotional and thematic denouement. It isnt mandatory but you should be aware that this stuff exists.

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 42 hours!


Terrible Opinions posted:

I will generalize anime just as much as I generalize YA fiction and Hollywood movies, thank you very much. :colbert:


Terrible Opinions posted:

Also the Twilight imprinting stuff isn't any worse than the weird pedo stuff in Prisma Illya.

*nods thoughtfully*

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Twilight is just okay and Tsukihime is enjoyable if hosed up (and enjoyable because of that even).

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

Aurora posted:

*nods thoughtfully*

tbf that's not really a generalization so much as an easily made observation

Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Feb 21, 2018

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



The everyday scenes are what hold Fate Stay night together

https://youtu.be/NVXDiWt2Snk

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





Endorph posted:

The taiga dojos are funny surreal gags and offer a few insights into the writing process and theres a decent epilogue unlocked by getting them all. The epilogue offers no plot info whatsoever and is just an emotional and thematic denouement. It isnt mandatory but you should be aware that this stuff exists.

That is good to know! Since I'm already a route-and-a-half deep, I think I'll have to cut my losses and just look that stuff up later. When I get to Hollow Ataraxia, I'm gonna try to ascertain more of this stuff beforehand. I'd even like to play without a walkthrough for a change.

Rodyle posted:

The everyday scenes are what hold Fate Stay night together

https://youtu.be/NVXDiWt2Snk

God, the music in this game really gets to me.

The more I think about it, I was probably hasty to condemn the everyday scenes. I'm hooked on the more dramatic elements of the story, but I guess taking out the quieter "mundane" parts would be like taking out the Ten Forward scenes in Star Trek: The Next Generation. They seem to tell us a lot about where the characters are at and how they relate to each other.

100 degrees Calcium fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Feb 21, 2018

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





Oh for that matter, I guess this is a good time for me to ask. Is the UBW GoodEnd worth pursuing?

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

I don't like it as much as the UBW True End but it's fine. I wouldn't skip it if only because it's trivial going back through it again to see other endings thanks to the "skip already read text" feature and a flowchart.

Heaven's Feel is where people are much more divided tbh but again, I wouldn't skip any of the endings there either.

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





Right on. I'm finally realizing that this is a game better enjoyed by taking in all the various scenes and trying to exclude some is pretty pointless. Thank God for the skip-already-read-text feature.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


the good end is superior to the true end.

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 42 hours!


why would anyone prefer heaven's feel normal end

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


100 degrees Calcium posted:

Right on. I'm finally realizing that this is a game better enjoyed by taking in all the various scenes and trying to exclude some is pretty pointless. Thank God for the skip-already-read-text feature.

On a related matter: I would suggest going for the Heaven's Feel Normal End first once you get to that route.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


100 degrees Calcium posted:

God, the music in this game really gets to me.

The soundtrack is amazing and is what makes the fight scenes feel so intense (I feel).

And while the anime adaptations and spin-offs all got pretty great soundtracks themselves, there's something about the original that stays.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


do NOT do the heavens feel normal end

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Aurora posted:

why would anyone prefer heaven's feel normal end

The standing figure is no different from a machine.
It's programmed to swing the sword, but it's a corpse with no desire to move.

But even without human intelligence...
There are machines that weave many dreams in this world.


It is beautifully tragic.






It's spring.

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 42 hours!


the true end is better

GodFish
Oct 10, 2012

We're your first, last, and only line of defense. We live in secret. We exist in shadow.

And we dress in black.


100 degrees Calcium posted:

I'm confused. Am I really missing out here?

You aren't really missing anything if you dont get all the Dojo's, but I'd say its definately worth your time to see some of them. The Dojo scenes are generally good and usually have some message about the themes of the route, and some of the deaths are funny and can lend insight into the characters and the differences that make up the successful route.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



GodFish posted:

You aren't really missing anything if you dont get all the Dojo's, but I'd say its definately worth your time to see some of them. The Dojo scenes are generally good and usually have some message about the themes of the route, and some of the deaths are funny and can lend insight into the characters and the differences that make up the successful route.

Technically, you are missing a small bonus scene if you don't get all of them.

But really, with fastread and skip scene you can plow through and get them all in one evening after you are done reading the main story. It's not a huge time investment.


Terrible Opinions posted:

Fate like most anime could benefit from an editor wielding a pair of hedge clippers and zero sense of mercy.

please see the studio deen version of UBW for how good of an idea this is.

DamnGlitch fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Feb 22, 2018

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



the problem with deen ubw isnt that it cuts scenes and subplots entirely, because it doesn't do that. it not doing that is the problem: it tries to cram in every scene and subplot when it just doesnt have the screentime to do that.

if i was writing a single movie adaptation of unlimited blade works and i could change anything, kojiro and medea wouldn't exist, neither would kotomine and taiga, shinji and issei would be combined into one character, the 'archer joining medea' subplot would be him joining ilya instead, and that'd just be the start. That'd be going at it with a hatchet. and maybe that would or wouldn't work out, but it'd at least be an actual decision made in adaptation, which is the biggest issue with pretty much every fate adaptation. They're just afraid to change things. That's why Fate/Extra seems like it's going to be the best Fate anime.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



I haven't actually watched UBW movie, but it was the first thing that came to mind.

I've said it previously but I don't think there is a way to win, really. I'm happy with how UFOTable has been handling it. UBW is not my favorite thing in the world but it's about as good as I can hope for from an adaptation. It sounds like what you are talking about is more like a reimagining, or interpretation. At a certain point the question comes up "if you aren't gonna do the original story justice why not just write a whole new story?"

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



because i think there's value in reinterpreting art for a different medium. something's core appeal can still be expressed even if you do it in a very different way, and the choices you make in how to express that appeal are in themselves meaningful art. naoki urasawa's Pluto is technically a retelling of an Astro Boy arc, and Pluto's one of the best manga ever written. I think it does the story more justice to change it heavily than it does to just make a mildly different repeat of it.

And it's kind of funny to say 'it's pointless to reinterpret and retell fiction' while discussing Fate/Stay Night.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Endorph posted:

That'd be going at it with a hatchet. and maybe that would or wouldn't work out, but it'd at least be an actual decision made in adaptation, which is the biggest issue with pretty much every fate adaptation. They're just afraid to change things. That's why Fate/Extra seems like it's going to be the best Fate anime.

Hey, presage flower was great; I don't know if they'll manage to keep it up, but that was the good poo poo.

Agreed on Last Encore, though. It fondly reminds me of Melody of Oblivion, blended with Monogatari, and Fate just liberally sprinkled on for flavor.

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010


Pretty much what Endorph said. It's telling that Last Encore is the first fate anime adaptation Nasus been the primary screenwriter for, I think, in that he understands the difference in writing for different forms of media.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011


Nasu is the modern David Foster Wallace

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



yeah, reinterpreting worlds while maintaining a set of core values is pretty much the continued fateverse in a nutshell, so endorph's got a an interesting point with the movie there.

like, the story of prillya is just tackling themes presented in f/sn, using a changed setting wherein by facing her other selves in Miyu and Kuro and saving them, she does what Shirou didn't.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Endorph posted:

And it's kind of funny to say 'it's pointless to reinterpret and retell fiction' while discussing Fate/Stay Night.

I would never say that. I do think it's a valuable question though. Especially for adaptations, is the goal "remaining true to and conveying the same experience as the original" or "reinterpreting the work for some purpose (be it to match the contours of a different media, or examine some other aspect of the work, or what have you" or "attracting new fans" or "pleasing existing fans" etc.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



anyways, this is why shaft is the best studio. "hey nasu, wanna write an anime? just go nuts lol, we'll take whatever you give us"

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





DamnGlitch posted:

I haven't actually watched UBW movie, but it was the first thing that came to mind.

I've said it previously but I don't think there is a way to win, really. I'm happy with how UFOTable has been handling it. UBW is not my favorite thing in the world but it's about as good as I can hope for from an adaptation. It sounds like what you are talking about is more like a reimagining, or interpretation. At a certain point the question comes up "if you aren't gonna do the original story justice why not just write a whole new story?"
Ceaseless exposition about how a show's magic works isn't really an integral part of the story. You can pop off a few lines about the parts that are actually story relevant and the rest should just be shown because you're working in a visual medium. In print/vn it's significantly more acceptable to have weird expository digressions because they lack any means to just show you the stuff on screen. Unfortunately the fate adaptations that we have are dedicated to telling not showing because whenever they actually show magic it's generally just in dumb DBZ laser fights. Just for point of comparison Moby Dick has a whole capture devoted to Ishmael looking at lamps and expositing via internal monologue about how sailors use lamps and how these differ between different types of boats. This is naturally either completely cut or reduced to set design and 1-2 lines of dialogue in just about every adaptation.

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





I decided to check out a Bad End and the Taiga Dojo to go with it. I love Taiga now.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


As you should

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Conspiratiorist posted:

Hey, presage flower was great; I don't know if they'll manage to keep it up, but that was the good poo poo.

Agreed on Last Encore, though. It fondly reminds me of Melody of Oblivion, blended with Monogatari, and Fate just liberally sprinkled on for flavor.

Hey, someone else who remembers and likes Melody of Oblivion!

GodFish
Oct 10, 2012

We're your first, last, and only line of defense. We live in secret. We exist in shadow.

And we dress in black.


100 degrees Calcium posted:

I decided to check out a Bad End and the Taiga Dojo to go with it. I love Taiga now.

all is well again.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


taser rates posted:

Pretty much what Endorph said. It's telling that Last Encore is the first fate anime adaptation Nasus been the primary screenwriter for, I think, in that he understands the difference in writing for different forms of media.

But LE is deliberately not an adaptation of Extra. It's an entirely new story set somewhere in that subfranchise. It's not comparable.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



DamnGlitch posted:

I would never say that. I do think it's a valuable question though. Especially for adaptations, is the goal "remaining true to and conveying the same experience as the original" or "reinterpreting the work for some purpose (be it to match the contours of a different media, or examine some other aspect of the work, or what have you" or "attracting new fans" or "pleasing existing fans" etc.

I think an adaptation can do all of these things, is my point.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011


taser rates
Mar 30, 2010


Kyte posted:

But LE is deliberately not an adaptation of Extra. It's an entirely new story set somewhere in that subfranchise. It's not comparable.

I'm aware that it diverges significantly, but I would say it's still comparable because he could have tried to make it a closer adaptation of the Extra story and that was the impression that a lot of people had going into it, but he pretty specifically chose not to which is what makes it relevant to the discussion around every other Fate anime adaptation adhering more closely to source.

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YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



See? The Tsukihime anime guys had the right idea.

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