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Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



lol dude

shinji is never portrayed positively

shirou is a headcase because of his ideal

kiritsugu isn't really much of an rear end in a top hat to irisviel at all

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WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


also keep in mind i said "usually" specifically because i don't really see that being quite such a defining aspect of Fate, and I went out of my way to name two other shows in the category where that's not actually a big part and it's mostly the other aspects of the show (in both cases people getting shot a lot, in Black Lagoon's case lots of explosions, in Hellsing's case insane gore) that get it lumped in with "manime"

like i'm mostly arguing the point on Fate being a little misogynistic because I'm just a little shocked we're not all on the same page there; it's not some Horrible Affront to Women (as anyone with functioning eyes can see given how loving hilariously massive Type-Moon's female fanbase is) but it's a little weirdly written in parts and those parts have been called out over and over and over and over again to the point where one of those callouts was literally quoted in the thread title

"Nasu is a little weird about women at times" might honest to god be one of the coldest Type-Moon takes

e: also, if the main thing here is that it's a dumb term, i pretty much agree and that's why i refuse to use it outside quotemarks. i think the thing it's describing exists and i don't know a better word for it off the top of my head, so it stays, but i refuse to show any respect to the term.

e2: and also the problem is more that Shinji exists at all in the form he was written, than whether he's portrayed as good or bad. like, he basically exists to provide a constant threat of sexual violence to any women he's around (and also to get owned for this, to be fair). that's... a little lazy.

WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Mar 13, 2018

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



the "callout" is the thread title because it's so awful

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


i'm not really sure why you're just responding to little pieces of my posts and not the actual broader points i'm trying to make but it's kind of weird. like, yeah, that callout was dumb, but it's also repeating a sentiment that has been said a shitzillion goddamn times, which was my actual point there.

e: like is this what being fishmeched about anime looks like

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


EricAndre.jpeg

What the hell are you talking about

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

Raenir Salazar posted:

I actually can't find it anymore.

It's a doujin series about 5 volumes long called Heaven's Failure. A google search for that should get you any one of a number of places hosting it.




It even brought us magical girl ilya with Shirou powers before Prisma Ilya was even a thing, back when the kaleido stick was pretty much only a tohsaka gag.

Bakanogami fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Mar 13, 2018

boredsatellite
Dec 7, 2013



LORD OF BOOTY posted:

like, let's be real here, we're not excited for the HF movies because of the talky parts, we're excited because we want to see Nine Bullet Revolver and the True Ending fight and (if we're extremely lucky) Sparks Liner High and all the other completely wild-rear end poo poo from that route animated.

Speak for yourself, the talky parts were loving rad in the movie, especially with how they handled the backstory, tension and setting up later scenes

If you aren't excited over the talky parts in the bloody nasuverse then what's the bloody point.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



im excited about heaven's feel because i love sakura and her character arc is very inspiring and valuable to me, as a woman who's been through some poo poo. some of the fight scenes are cool too but the emotional core of the story is what keeps me around.

edit: also shinji is literally just a mishmash of every male antagonist in Utena.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Shinji is a good boy twisted into a bad boy by a very bad family life.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



anyway fate/stay night itself has a couple of bits that are mildly weird about women but there's a huge difference between 'a guy in his late 20s made a couple of questionable writing decisions in a visual novel whose production was pretty much defined by the push and pull between the things he wanted to write and the realities of what was at the time a male-dominated market' and 'nasu is weird about women' and fate/extra ccc is literally an entire game about said weirdness about women so im gonna say it:

quote:

"Nasu is a little weird about women at times"

is a take i disagree with

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010

Dream Super Combo


But which Fate series is the one with the constantly recycled stock footage of the protagonist climbing stairs?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



W.T. Fits posted:

But which Fate series is the one with the constantly recycled stock footage of the protagonist climbing stairs?

fate/extra

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



last encore has lots of ridiculous staircases


nice

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


Saber's cute

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Saying "nasu is a misogynist" is wrong but it's not exactly a surprising take for someone who's only consumed fate via the animated adaptations and secondhand descriptions of the VNs, and he probably is a sex weird just by law of averages wrt genre authors.

Urobuchi and Zero can get hosed, though.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



would a sex weird really enter the doujin scene to read and write eroge? the jury's out on that one!

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


theres nothing weird about wanting to kiss kohaku

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Shirou's damage is close enough to "toxic masculinity" that it's worth including under that label for discussion purposes, if only so you can talk about how it's different from that.

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



it's not toxic masculinity

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





I don't know what the right term is, but it's annoying when Shirou flips out about how so-and-so is a girl and must not fight, even if she's an ancient legend full of magic power and martial discipline. It's annoying when other people do it too, I don't know if it's because they also experienced a severe childhood trauma that gave them a case of The Ideals.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


It's called being an idiot

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





It loving sucks and was a pretty sore spot for me, particularly in the Fate route.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


100 degrees Calcium posted:

I don't know what the right term is, but it's annoying when Shirou flips out about how so-and-so is a girl and must not fight, even if she's an ancient legend full of magic power and martial discipline.

hes got a complex about living when other people died, op

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



yeah it just ends up being that he's really against other people fighting for him

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





He specifies the girl part frequently. It's a big time conflict between him and Saber in the Fate route.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


because he comes up with surface level excuses to skirt around his deeper issues

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


He's never really torn up about caster dying all that badly for example.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Note the number of times he tells Rin she shouldn't fight because she's a girl.

boredsatellite
Dec 7, 2013



welcome to survivor's guilt

It is a complicated and rough thing that pretty much makes up shirou's personality

DisDisDis
Dec 21, 2013


Space Flower posted:

would a sex weird really enter the doujin scene to read and write eroge? the jury's out on that one!

fun with sexweird

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



shirou is constantly telling artoria she shouldn't fight because surprise, he has feelings for her

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





I dunno, maybe it's different in Japan. In the United States, having weird outdated ideas about gender roles isn't a mark of trauma, it's just something that people do all the time. If 2004 Japan was actually super woke, then I guess Shirou really is just a tortured idiot.

I mean, not that I'd ever argue that he isn't an idiot, I just think his idiocy expresses itself in an off-putting sexist way.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



I would come up with all sort of reason to make someone not suicide too.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


I think Shirou's overprotectiveness toward women (which Taiga outright states he got from Kiritsugu) reflects Kiritsugu's guilt about his treatment of Maiya, Saber, and Irisviel. Obviously that wasn't Nasu's intention at the time, though.

(Nasu has admitted that the actual reason is a Signal from Fred.)

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Mar 13, 2018

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



100 degrees Calcium posted:

I dunno, maybe it's different in Japan. In the United States, having weird outdated ideas about gender roles isn't a mark of trauma, it's just something that people do all the time. If 2004 Japan was actually super woke, then I guess Shirou really is just a tortured idiot.

I mean, not that I'd ever argue that he isn't an idiot, I just think his idiocy expresses itself in an off-putting sexist way.
it isnt always a mark of trauma, but it can be? and in fiction, characters usually act certain ways for reasons, as opposed to just because.

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





It sounds like it can be multiple items out of a set of every possible reason except for reflecting the attitude of the author or the character towards women. Like, sexism don't real or something.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Considering how it's laser-focused towards a couple women in his life, correct.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


100 degrees Calcium posted:

It loving sucks and was a pretty sore spot for me, particularly in the Fate route.
Putting aside the Watsonian reasons, Nasu hammered the "Seiba's a girl" button pretty hard on Fate route which he later admitted was because he was trying to sell it as a boy-meets-girl story despite "King Arthur is a girl" being a pretty ridiculous notion in itself and at that point he wasn't experienced enough a writer to come up with something more subtle.
Ctrl-F "wool" for the relevant passage.

Combined with Shirou's survivor complex it made for some unfortunate lines.


That said Shirou does (slightly) subscribe to some outdated notions of gender, which not coincidentally happen to be the same ones the stereotypical japanese housewife of the time would have, because the entire joke is that Shirou is a goddamn housewife.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Are people getting cash prizes for pointing out instances of sexist behavior and out stubborning every attempt to contextualize it? Otherwise Iím not sure why we have to have this circular rear end argument every time the Fate route comes up. Yes, Shirou says sexist things. Yes, itís part of his character development, and an attitude that the story demonstrates shows both to be a silly thing to believe and ridiculous in context (the girl(s) in question being powerful combatants). Yes, it reflects in some way the authors own thoughts and working through of the subject matter. No, itís not indicative of a horrible character flaw in the author that the whole work needs to be censured for. There are plenty of other weird rear end things in fsa worthier of that attention, as dreary as going over it again is.

Are we seriously supposed to re-evaluate every work of fiction by hyper-reactionary rubrics? And disavow them because they donít fit perfectly in the modern framework a small cadre has decided is the gold standard?

How much of this is authentic, and how much of it is bad faith? You can not like a thing and not continually try to relitigate itís worthiness in a space put aside for people who, broadly, enjoy it.

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100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





I mean, it's not a dealbreaker, obviously. I can't stop getting into Fate stuff now, so I'm like, into it. It was just like, drat man, I get it. You don't think girls should fight! And it seems like flawed analysis to identify all the motivations for his behavior but pretend that the behavior itself doesn't also happen to reflect a common and unfair mindset. I tend to take character's values seriously, especially when they so persistently repeat them. Like, I get that there's all kinds of stuff going on in his dumb noggin, but that doesn't mean his poo poo wasn't wack.


e:

DamnGlitch posted:

Are we seriously supposed to re-evaluate every work of fiction by hyper-reactionary rubrics? And disavow them because they donít fit perfectly in the modern framework a small cadre has decided is the gold standard?

How much of this is authentic, and how much of it is bad faith? You can not like a thing and not continually try to relitigate itís worthiness in a space put aside for people who, broadly, enjoy it.

I mean, you can do what you want. It's not cause for disavowal to me, but since this is a space put aside for people who enjoy it, and I am such people, I thought I'd participate in the ongoing discussion.

Unless what you mean is that no criticism is allowed here, in which case sorry, I guess I'll only ever nice things about Fate in the Fate thread.

100 degrees Calcium fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Mar 13, 2018

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