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Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


The thing is that

Conspiratiorist posted:

Note the number of times he tells Rin she shouldn't fight because she's a girl.

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100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





Conspiratiorist posted:

The thing is that

I get it, but he says it like 20 times to Saber. Like, maybe Shirou is actually way ahead of his time when it comes to gender politics, but he really doubles down on that poo poo even while all other prohibitive elements of his relationship with Saber get analyzed and resolved. Unless you really think that all people who exhibit bias do so extremely consistently and within the confines of rational expression, I'd think you'd have to acknowledge that this dude really couldn't let go of the fact that Saber is a girl and that is a reason he can't have her fight, even after he otherwise accepts the necessity of the Servant's role in their partnership.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


I have posted/read this thread since, 2014 or 2015ish and whenever people bring up Shirou saying the sexist things as if he doesn't get past it and like it's a hot new take I want to scream

It is literally the same poo poo every goddamn time

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





It just seems weird to deny it is all.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


100 degrees Calcium posted:

I get it, but he says it like 20 times to Saber. Like, maybe Shirou is actually way ahead of his time when it comes to gender politics, but he really doubles down on that poo poo even while all other prohibitive elements of his relationship with Saber get analyzed and resolved. Unless you really think that all people who exhibit bias do so extremely consistently and within the confines of rational expression, I'd think you'd have to acknowledge that this dude really couldn't let go of the fact that Saber is a girl and that is a reason he can't have her fight, even after he otherwise accepts the necessity of the Servant's role in their partnership.

...exhibiting bias consistently is exactly what earns anyone the moniker of biased or bigoted.

It's because it specifically only happens with Saber, and only in her route, that raises the notion there's something else going there than simply a reflection of Shirou's, or the author's, sexism.

Like you know, our plucky protagonist developing PTSD from seeing her internal organs splattered by Berserker in front of him - an image that flashes on his mind almost every time he displays worry for Saber.

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





Conspiratiorist posted:

...exhibiting bias consistently is exactly what earns anyone the moniker of biased or bigoted.

This is not true. You've never been surprised by a friend or colleague exposing a bias before?

quote:

It's because it specifically only happens with Saber, and only in her route, that raises the notion there's something else going there than simply a reflection of Shirou's, or the author's, sexism.

I mean, I know Nasu isn't the most concise writer, but why would it feature so often if it wasn't at least a factor? Like, what is the story telling us about Shirou when Shirou says the same thing so much?

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


100 degrees Calcium posted:

It just seems weird to deny it is all.

Literally no one denies it, what I personally take issue with is that it gets brought up all the time as a shallow reading of the character and denies the development he gets in the other routes because he is capable of change for better or for worse.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

A bunch of characters just seem inexplicably "off" in Fate compared to how they are portrayed in future arcs/routes and other works in general, Shirou perhaps most explicitly but also Gil and Kotomine. For Shirou I can usually compartmentalize it as something akin to "this makes his growth in the future story bits, where he obviously doesn't do these things, more pronounced" or Nasu just being sort of clumsy writing his idea of a boy-meets-girl story at the expense of whether it made sense for the long term prospects of the story.

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





Compendium posted:

Literally no one denies it

Okay this wasn't clear to me, but I'll trust you because I didn't realize I was hitting such a nerve with this. I wasn't trying to disavow the game, I wasn't trying to say Shirou sucks (but he is an idiot), I wasn't trying to say I discovered the secret woman-hating sauce that powers the franchise. I just thought I read people say that this one factor wasn't present and I was baffled because it seemed to occur a lot and I assumed that it was okay to participate in the existing conversation. I'm not here to ruin anyone's fun or re-litigate a dead topic or whatever.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Nate RFB posted:

A bunch of characters just seem inexplicably "off" in Fate compared to how they are portrayed in future arcs/routes and other works in general, Shirou perhaps most explicitly but also Gil and Kotomine.

Gil apparently lost about 30 IQ points between Zero and Stay Night, lol.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


Zero is a prequel to UBW route, not F/SN from how it feels (especially with how Gil dresses).

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


Shiki Ryougi is a mystical super powerful girl with vague gender identity issues, and her mild-mannered boyfriend is always cheering her on and reassuring her "i'd still totally love you if you were a guy hth"

Step up your game Shirou jeez

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


I'm fine with people saying Shirou sucks, but it's just because of the same old hat people keep refuting with the same stuff that gets annoying after a few years

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


DamnGlitch posted:

Are people getting cash prizes for pointing out instances of sexist behavior and out stubborning every attempt to contextualize it? Otherwise Iím not sure why we have to have this circular rear end argument every time the Fate route comes up. Yes, Shirou says sexist things. Yes, itís part of his character development, and an attitude that the story demonstrates shows both to be a silly thing to believe and ridiculous in context (the girl(s) in question being powerful combatants). Yes, it reflects in some way the authors own thoughts and working through of the subject matter. No, itís not indicative of a horrible character flaw in the author that the whole work needs to be censured for. There are plenty of other weird rear end things in fsa worthier of that attention, as dreary as going over it again is.

Are we seriously supposed to re-evaluate every work of fiction by hyper-reactionary rubrics? And disavow them because they donít fit perfectly in the modern framework a small cadre has decided is the gold standard?

How much of this is authentic, and how much of it is bad faith? You can not like a thing and not continually try to relitigate itís worthiness in a space put aside for people who, broadly, enjoy it.

Welcome to Glorious People's Republic of Current Year.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


100 degrees Calcium posted:

I mean, I know Nasu isn't the most concise writer, but why would it feature so often if it wasn't at least a factor? Like, what is the story telling us about Shirou when Shirou says the same thing so much?

I literally just posted how that came from an inexperienced writer trying to sell an unlikely pairing and fumbling the execution, what the gently caress more do you want.

Kyte fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Mar 13, 2018

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



Silver2195 posted:

Gil apparently lost about 30 IQ points between Zero and Stay Night, lol.
I blame evil mud even though he claims it didnít affect him.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



"shirou says some dumb stuff"
"yeah but it's there for some reasons of characterization and some reasons of the writing process of the game just being kind of weird, plus the more egregious lines are just mistranslations'
'BUT WHY ARE YOU DENYING IT'S THERE?'


Nyaa posted:

I blame evil mud even though he claims it didn’t affect him.
this has always been my take, even ignoring like, relative intelligence he just seems way more evil in stay night. Like, I don't think he would have spared waver at all in Stay Night. And the only source we have for the grail mud not affecting him is Gil himself, who isn't exactly an unbiased source. Heck, even Saber seems to think it did affect him.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Nyaa posted:

I blame evil mud even though he claims it didnít affect him.

Tbh at the time I read it it seemed really obvious that Gil was wrong about the mud not affecting him and it seems weird to me that everyone just sort of took him at his word, but Im not going to read fate again to see if I missed a line.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

Tbh at the time I read it it seemed really obvious that Gil was wrong about the mud not affecting him and it seems weird to me that everyone just sort of took him at his word, but Im not going to read fate again to see if I missed a line.

no thats basically the exchange, Saber asks how he survived the mud and Gilgamesh goes "All the evils of this world? Bring at least three times that if you wish to stain me!' and after the fight Saber mentions that Gilgamesh seems a bit different from how she remembers him (IE: the mud did affect him)

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



DamnGlitch posted:

Yes, it reflects in some way the authors own thoughts and working through of the subject matter.

pretry sure nasu thinks saber is badass actually

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



Cephas posted:

Shiki Ryougi is a mystical super powerful girl with vague gender identity issues, and her mild-mannered boyfriend is always cheering her on and reassuring her "i'd still totally love you if you were a guy hth"

Step up your game Shirou jeez

kokuto sucks and is NOT dating shiki

Motto
Aug 3, 2013



Aurora posted:

kokuto sucks and is NOT dating shiki

U sure

dudermcbrohan
May 14, 2013


well yeah theyíre married now

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008




yes

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



dudermcbrohan posted:

well yeah theyíre married now

no

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


im sorry aurora......

Motto
Aug 3, 2013



I'm not

Liffrea
Jun 16, 2013

Your gacha-bragging struck a nerve and accidentally set off my self-defense instincts. Sorry about that.

Endorph posted:

no thats basically the exchange, Saber asks how he survived the mud and Gilgamesh goes "All the evils of this world? Bring at least three times that if you wish to stain me!' and after the fight Saber mentions that Gilgamesh seems a bit different from how she remembers him (IE: the mud did affect him)

Nasu explicitly said in an interview that it's impossible to corrupt Gil because of his massive ego and the reason behind his increase in jerkass between Zero and Stay Night was because Gil's human side gets influenced by the state of humanity at the time. Humanity apparently sucked so much, it turned him into (more of) a raging shithead. Him despising what human society had become didn't help. It's part of the reason he took the youth potion and turned back into Ko-Gil for the ten years between the wars, because he wouldn't have been able to stand it otherwise.

(of course the retcon real reason is that zero and stay night aren't in the same universe, but...)

Though, I still haven't been able to figure out how "Gilgamesh can't be corrupted because his ego is too drat stronk" squares with "he's completely unable to avoid being influenced by the state of humanity" but

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


The only thing that influences gil is gil. Not sure why that's contradictory

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


the goo made him angry and horny

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





Kyte posted:

I literally just posted how that came from an inexperienced writer trying to sell an unlikely pairing and fumbling the execution, what the gently caress more do you want.

You're right. You provided a credible explanation that explains the intent behind the writing. I'm sorry I ignored it.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Paracelsus posted:

Welcome to Glorious People's Republic of Current Year.

Oh please, do tell.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Rodyle posted:

Oh please, do tell.

actually, please dont

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Endorph posted:

this has always been my take, even ignoring like, relative intelligence he just seems way more evil in stay night. Like, I don't think he would have spared waver at all in Stay Night. And the only source we have for the grail mud not affecting him is Gil himself, who isn't exactly an unbiased source. Heck, even Saber seems to think it did affect him.

It's elaborated on later works. Basically he believes ghosts of the past have no business interfering with the events of the present, so he won't really concern himself with the state of humanity, even if it's disappointing.

But if he gets incarnated, then he's now part of the world, and as such he will take up the responsibility for both judging humanity's progress and acting upon it if he considers it necessary. Retake his old role, really. And in his view humanity is totally loving up so he figured a good old culling would do the trick. The six billion curses born from humanity VS six billions humans. Fair, no? If they can't even clean up their own trash then why the gently caress are they even bothering.

The funny thing is that FGO actually kinda validates him. What little is left of humanity is giving its all. That's why he's so nice to you in FGO.

All it took was for everyone else to go up in flames.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




Endorph posted:

actually, please dont

No, hold on, I wanna see where he goes with this. A full-on meltdown about those awful robocops would be hilarious.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011


Gas

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


my thoughts are sakura is cute

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008




what did you have for dinner? pizza?

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Aurora posted:

pretry sure nasu thinks saber is badass actually

She is, and he thinks so (and Shirou does too, after getting over his bullshit). But I don't wanna pretend that at some level, especially as a young man, that he was examining what that means in relationship to normal people, and later and broader what it means for her to have chosen to be a perfect badass and literally denying her womanhood.

Fate is a slightly trashy but in many ways well nuanced story.

Thinking more concretely about it, it's been a long time since I actually read the Fate route, and it's interesting the lack of representation in the metaseries compared to UWB and HF. I wonder if it just feels too anachronistic at this point. It's not exactly Prototype but it is way less developed than UBW or HF.

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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


College Slice

I always kinda figured Shirou's soul got placed in Rin's pendant, that he was actually maybe in Illya's body for a while before getting a new body from Aozaki is kinda funny and interesting.

Btw, does anyone happen to know who wrote that effort post about the sorta-Jungian analysis of the fight between Gilgamesh and Iskandar? About the Dreamer vs. the Horizon? I don't know if it was this thread, or a previous thread, but I'd like to reread it.

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