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Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


It's because it doesn't have an anime.

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Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



DamnGlitch posted:

She is, and he thinks so (and Shirou does too, after getting over his bullshit). But I don't wanna pretend that at some level, especially as a young man, that he was examining what that means in relationship to normal people, and later and broader what it means for her to have chosen to be a perfect badass and literally denying her womanhood.

Fate is a slightly trashy but in many ways well nuanced story.

you're not making a lot of sense here

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Aurora posted:

you're not making a lot of sense here

Hmm. What I mean is, yeah I think Nasu wrote Saber as awesome but also wanted to examine how Shirou has to deal with that through the lens of his issues.

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.


there's another interview where nasu talks about how he keeps coming back to writing relationship dynamics involving a physically strong woman supported by an emotionally strong man, and then basically says "but thinking back on it, even if it runs counter to stereotypes, if a character only shows one kind of strength then that's still pretty limiting, so i want to try and write a wider range of different characters and relationships in future"

so it's pretty clear he at least consciously considers this kind of stuff

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


College Slice

Basically the biggest shame in Type-Moon that we get a bunch of other character designers and writers that aren't quite up to snuff on Nasu's level so we get bad designs like Jack.

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





It's been wild to me coming at it from both ends at the same time. Where in stay night everything is contemplative and treacherous and the True Name is a big dramatic mystery and then in Grand Order you meet 20 Servants in a row and you know all of their names.

This isn't a complaint, it's just nuts exposing myself to both games at the same time and wondering how the franchise got from one end to the other.

I started watching Zero last night, that poo poo is tight as hell. Really glad I played fsn first though!

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


College Slice

Spectacle Escalation. Something like that, the importance of the True Name was because of the intended tactical P&P tabletop RPG aspects to the original VN's story. In FGO this falls away as things are either faster paced or there's basically just too much going on for keeping it secret to be practical; also usually you're fighting Masterless Servants and they don't give any fucks and prefer to fight all out to begin with.

Or you're fighting Servants who aren't dead yet, and thus have no reason to keep their identities secret.

Act II restores some of the importance of True Names mechanically.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

Shinjuku places some importance on hiding True Names. It's basically a non-issue for the rest of EoR.

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



Raenir Salazar posted:

Basically the biggest shame in Type-Moon that we get a bunch of other character designers and writers that aren't quite up to snuff on Nasu's level so we get bad designs like Jack.

jack is cute.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Her outfit is unfortunate.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



Jack's weird and that's cool imo, her stuff in fate/apo with her master and Atalanta was way more interesting than the main plot.

I don't really see her being removed from "Nasu's level"ó personally I think he's less into moe, cutesy chars than Takeuchi is, but it's still material he's handled a lot in his writing. He's read stuff like Kusarihime and Saya no Uta that clearly influenced him afterward (not to mention that the writers of both of these VNs are Nasu's buds and heavily involved with Type Moon), and the dissonance in chars like Len the catgirl succubus, or how the Gorgon twins and later Liz deal with stuff like idol culture and perversion/purity is all very 'weird' in the same sense as Jack's design. They're all handled with Nasu deft and are some of his most compelling, nuanced chars, and I think Jack's the same with her character that's supposed to come off as creepy and murderous and yet sympathetic. The former chars get better execution and unlike with f/a they're in stories that thematically enable them, but I do get what Jack's character is meant to evoke.

It's heartwarming when Reika dresses her up and they go on a cute mother-daughter walk and then you realize they're out to murder people and feast on their souls. Or when it's dinner time and she spoonfeeds Jack some yummy food and then oh look, it's a human heart on a plate. It's grotesque, and yet look at how pure and happy she is to just gulp down some magus heart. That stuff's interesting and it's a shame apo's limited by its main plot and the spotlight on Sieg, because it could've done a lot more with them. f/go and riyo's comics do a nice job of picking up some slack, luckily.

Also, I'm not trying to reverse judge anyone for thinking Jack needs pants but I think her design merits more points than just "it sucks". She's super cute and a lot of details went into making her look and act kind of feral. She has straight-up cat eyes, messy fluffy hair that reminds me of Tama from KanColle (google her if you want, but she's basically a pure-strain "acts like a cat and says nyaa a lot" character), and cheek scars that are lightly evocative of whiskers. Her design is filled with serrated, sharp shapes like her hair and knives, and her tattered coat in f/go; together it does a great job of carrying both the "ripper" aspect and again, making her look cutely feral. The high-contrast color scheme of being blacks and whites with a few brightly-colored accents, is also 'ok hand emoji'. It's moe. please protect jack. thank you

Space Flower fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Mar 14, 2018

Piell
Sep 3, 2006

Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer



Young Orc

I just want my murder daughter to wear pants

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



But why the pink shoe...

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



https://twitter.com/p_nutsf_r/status/973491394349219843

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Space Flower posted:

Also, I'm not trying to reverse judge anyone for thinking Jack needs pants but I think her design merits more points than just "it sucks". She's super cute and a lot of details went into making her look and act kind of feral. She has straight-up cat eyes, messy fluffy hair that reminds me of Tama from KanColle (google her if you want, but she's basically a pure-strain "acts like a cat and says nyaa a lot" character), and cheek scars that are lightly evocative of whiskers. Her design is filled with serrated, sharp shapes like her hair and knives, and her tattered coat in f/go; together it does a great job of carrying both the "ripper" aspect and again, making her look cutely feral. The high-contrast color scheme of being blacks and whites with a few brightly-colored accents, is also 'ok hand emoji'. It's moe. please protect jack. thank you
The Apocrypha cast is in an interesting position where most were designed by disparate artists but then were transferred over to Konoe who touched them up but didn't do any major changes to them, presumably because the designs had already been made public and I get the impression TM (or maybe japanese developers in general?) don't like to straight up redo other people's work.

In this case Jack was originally made by... Taketo Sanada, who drew the infamous loli Cu pic. If you look at his danbooru page, he has some quite obvious fetishes which he had absolutely no issue in incorporating into Jack, but created the base design bits like the knives, distinctive features and color scheme. Then Konoe came in, toned the fetish down a bit and added many of the details you mention, like sharpening her eyes, giving the pupils a slightly more cat-like look (actually this might just be his own art style seeping through), fluffing up her hair and overall making the silhouette less "smooth".

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



yeah i did know about that, and to be fair most of the original designs have at least two credits to them in apocrypha material, the artist and a type-moon affiliated writer like meteo, urobuchi, higashide, etc., and higashide was the designer for jack.

however I never looked up Sanada's other work before. lmao... loli cu... that's ridiculous. look at that forehead glint

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


College Slice

Oh the general aesthetic/theme of Jack's design as a character I have no problem with, her subplot in F/A was good and her interaction with Atalante in FGO/F/A are also good.

I was just speculating that if it were Takeuchi she insofar as "Let's make Jack the Ripper also a girl and a loli" as a given, I don't think she still be pantless is just what I'm trying to say and is basically my only hangup with her design. Her coat is great.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Piell posted:

I just want my murder daughter to wear pants

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


So who's responsible for everything with Prisma then

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Tae posted:

So who's responsible for everything with Prisma then

Prisma is written and drawn by Hiroyama Hiroshi. Nasu and Takeuchi let him do his own thing.

Unlike other Fate/ works, it's not considered to be an official part of Fate's worldbuilding, hence why even in FGO the explanation for the Prismas showing up amounts of "we just happened to connect to a different universe don't think too hard about it".

Kyte fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Mar 14, 2018

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010

Dream Super Combo


Space Flower posted:

Also, I'm not trying to reverse judge anyone for thinking Jack needs pants but I think her design merits more points than just "it sucks". She's super cute and a lot of details went into making her look and act kind of feral. She has straight-up cat eyes, messy fluffy hair that reminds me of Tama from KanColle (google her if you want, but she's basically a pure-strain "acts like a cat and says nyaa a lot" character), and cheek scars that are lightly evocative of whiskers. Her design is filled with serrated, sharp shapes like her hair and knives, and her tattered coat in f/go; together it does a great job of carrying both the "ripper" aspect and again, making her look cutely feral. The high-contrast color scheme of being blacks and whites with a few brightly-colored accents, is also 'ok hand emoji'. It's moe. please protect jack. thank you

Like, I get that there's a lot of interesting aesthetic choices in the design that help inform the character's personality and the themes and stuff surrounding them... but that doesn't excuse the fact that on the surface level, it's a drawing of an underage girl running around in a thong. All the stuff about her eyes, scars, hair, her weapons, etc. would be conveyed just as well if she were wearing shorts or a skirt or pants or something down there. And since that's primarily going to be one of the first things a person notices about her design, as opposed to all the more subtle elements you've called out, the whole design ends up coming across as pandering to a very specific and disturbing fetish.

So at the end of the day...

Piell posted:

I just want my murder daughter to wear pants

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



Kyte posted:

Prisma is written and drawn by Hiroyama Hiroshi. Nasu and Takeuchi let him do his own thing.

Unlike other Fate/ works, it's not considered to be an official part of Fate's worldbuilding, hence why even in FGO the explanation for the Prismas showing up amounts of "we just happened to connect to a different universe don't think too hard about it".

really weird attempt to distance fate as a whole from prillya just because you don't like it. literally every type moon work is a 'different universe'. it's an alternate setting of the fate stuff, just like everything else

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


prillya just works by vastly different rules than normal fate stuff iirc

nasu still gets pretty hype for it though

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



I don't think Kyte is implying that so much as just noting how it's separate from the main fateverses in the same way that kara no kyoukai and other vastly different worlds are. though i wouldn't have said it's just "unlike other fate/ works" when there are plenty of spinoffs like it. I don't think all of the servants from fate/school life are actually sitting in the throne of heroes waiting for delightworks to flip the switch on the uh, Babe Ruth banner.

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



babe ruth banner for e pluribus 2

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



All of them spawn from a different timeline point of the same world, so itís multiple world but essentially the same copy that goes in different directions.

The universe cull the variations to keep a common line as new base.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Aurora posted:

babe ruth banner for e pluribus 2

The Rube would be better.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


College Slice

Stairmaster posted:

prillya just works by vastly different rules than normal fate stuff iirc

I'd put this as a combination of artistic license and basic allowance for the fact that anyone who is Not-Nasu is going to get his super detailed cosmology or get every frictionless spheroid on an infinite plane interaction between varied and contradictory archetypes perfect everytime.

I've had people on the grandorder reddit argue with me that "Servants being super durable unless they get their core destroyed" is something made up on the spot in after-the-fact and was "Never" in the original VN... Cue me finding a direct reference to that concept searching the LP Archive but whatever. Most fans can't even get basic facts about the core mythos correct in a way similar to how Game of Thrones fans can't even remember Tyrion's name half the time; I think it's fair to not hold a spinoff writer to quite the same standard as Nasu.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



Yeah, i only care if the work on by Nasu or supervised.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Raenir Salazar posted:

Basically the biggest shame in Type-Moon that we get a bunch of other character designers and writers that aren't quite up to snuff on Nasu's level so we get bad designs like Jack.
yeah, sakurai is better.

Raenir Salazar posted:

I'd put this as a combination of artistic license and basic allowance for the fact that anyone who is Not-Nasu is going to get his super detailed cosmology or get every frictionless spheroid on an infinite plane interaction between varied and contradictory archetypes perfect everytime.

I've had people on the grandorder reddit argue with me that "Servants being super durable unless they get their core destroyed" is something made up on the spot in after-the-fact and was "Never" in the original VN... Cue me finding a direct reference to that concept searching the LP Archive but whatever. Most fans can't even get basic facts about the core mythos correct in a way similar to how Game of Thrones fans can't even remember Tyrion's name half the time; I think it's fair to not hold a spinoff writer to quite the same standard as Nasu.
all of that poo poo is insanely boring and nasu probably doesnt hold them to it because he realizes this too

rvm
May 6, 2013


100 degrees Calcium posted:

I get it, but he says it like 20 times to Saber. Like, maybe Shirou is actually way ahead of his time when it comes to gender politics, but he really doubles down on that poo poo even while all other prohibitive elements of his relationship with Saber get analyzed and resolved. Unless you really think that all people who exhibit bias do so extremely consistently and within the confines of rational expression, I'd think you'd have to acknowledge that this dude really couldn't let go of the fact that Saber is a girl and that is a reason he can't have her fight, even after he otherwise accepts the necessity of the Servant's role in their partnership.

There are several dimensions to this dumb "But you're a girl!" thing. First, it's kind of a meta-joke, because initially Saber wasn't supposed to be a girl at all. Second, Shirou's attitudes are supposed to be that of an old-fashioned Japanese gossiping housewife or something, for comedic effect. It didn't work too well, in my opinion. Third, and most important of all, the statement "You can't fight because you're a girl" is incomplete, to begin with. If we actually take Shirou's feelings for Saber, the difference of his attitude towards other female characters (already pointed out in this thread) and his survivor guilt into account, it would sound more like "You can't fight <in my stead>, because you're a girl <I love>."

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Aurora posted:

really weird attempt to distance fate as a whole from prillya just because you don't like it. literally every type moon work is a 'different universe'. it's an alternate setting of the fate stuff, just like everything else

Space Flower posted:

I don't think Kyte is implying that so much as just noting how it's separate from the main fateverses in the same way that kara no kyoukai and other vastly different worlds are. though i wouldn't have said it's just "unlike other fate/ works" when there are plenty of spinoffs like it. I don't think all of the servants from fate/school life are actually sitting in the throne of heroes waiting for delightworks to flip the switch on the uh, Babe Ruth banner.
Right, I forgot about all of those. I should clarify.

Basically there's three tiers here:
FSN, KnK, Tsuki, Fate/Ex, etc form the cores of their respective continuities.

Apocrypha, Case Files, Protofragments, FGO, Strange Fake, Zero and I think I forgot one or two add onto these continuities. Their authors consult with Nasu to keep things in sync. They're the ones that get invited to Nasu's sleepover parties.

Prisma, Fate/School Life, Guda Guda Order, Learn with Manga, Take-Moon (that's the manga Carnival Phantasm adapts), All Around Type-Moon, Fate/Ikustella, Chibichuki, etc. are spinoffs that do their own thing, have no further bearing in the continuities they draw from and are not held to Nasu's approval on mechanics.
Prisma for example takes from FSN and FHA, but is not held to either. This is deliberate, Hiroyama has actually blogged about it so that fans would stop bitching about inconsistencies. Like Bazett being WTFstronk which is not the case in FHA. (Nasu was surprised at that one too)
I'll need to get home before I can bug people on IRC to find me the link.

Kyte fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Mar 14, 2018

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


learning with manga is atleast as canon as hollow ataraxia

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

it's a multiverse everything is canon

Piell
Sep 3, 2006

Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer



Young Orc

Stairmaster posted:

learning with manga is atleast as canon as hollow ataraxia

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





rvm posted:

There are several dimensions to this dumb "But you're a girl!" thing. First, it's kind of a meta-joke, because initially Saber wasn't supposed to be a girl at all. Second, Shirou's attitudes are supposed to be that of an old-fashioned Japanese gossiping housewife or something, for comedic effect. It didn't work too well, in my opinion. Third, and most important of all, the statement "You can't fight because you're a girl" is incomplete, to begin with. If we actually take Shirou's feelings for Saber, the difference of his attitude towards other female characters (already pointed out in this thread) and his survivor guilt into account, it would sound more like "You can't fight <in my stead>, because you're a girl <I love>."

Yeah that makes sense. There isn't anything going on there that can't really be explained by just admitting to myself that the writing can be a little rough (and I can't even begin to speak to what translation must be like) and some allowance for Nasu's intent is in order. It really annoyed me at the time but I kinda get it now.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

consider the implication that every single player's version of FGO is a separate universe

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Nasu's crimes against literature and women will never cease.

Raenir Salazar posted:

Basically the biggest shame in Type-Moon that we get a bunch of other character designers and writers that aren't quite up to snuff on Nasu's level so we get bad designs like Jack.
I think it's actually the single strongest point of the original game, all of the servant designs in particular are really cool.

100 degrees Calcium
Jan 22, 2011





Are Supports canonically Servants from other Chaldeas?

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Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


100 degrees Calcium posted:

Are Supports canonically Servants from other Chaldeas?

As far as the story is concerned they don't exist unless it's a story support.

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