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Tarezax
Sep 12, 2009

MORT cancels dance: interrupted by MORT


Conspiratiorist posted:

I'd have liked it as a post-credits scene. And without Saber Alter presented as a physical entity.

But she's not a physical entity

She is a Shadow, the True Self

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Mindblast
Jun 28, 2006

Moving at the speed of death.




Conspiratiorist posted:

HF part 1 bluray + soundtrack got released yesterday and rips are out. Comes with official english subs for those that missed it in theaters.

Guess I'll keep an eye out then. Thanks!

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


Wow heavens feel is totally my jam. the spookiness of it, the way how weird stuff that shouldn't be happening keeps happening, and the way it really emphasizes how all the characters are not-so-secretly traumatized, even shitlord-in-chief Shinji. there's just like an intensity and darkness to this route that I'm really into that I think didn't come across as much in unlimited blade works.

I was thinking about it and I realized how horrible everyone's family lives are in this show.

Shirou - entire family dead because of Kotomine and Kiritsugu, seems to have completely repressed any memories he has of them
Rin - sister fostered off to abusive family, father murdered by Kotomine, mother comatose because of a murder attempt by a Matou and orchestrated by Kotomine
Shinji & Sakura - uncle set on fire by Rin's dad, father killed in cold blood by Shirou's dad, mother dead because of reasons?? living with insectophile nosferatu grandpa
Ilya - abandoned by her father for a new family life that she can literally look down from her house and see, mother turned into an evil cup

every character is an orphan because some other character's dad killed their parents! it makes the great house families in game of thrones look tame by comparison.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


In Illya's case, it wasn't really abandonment, Kerry just wasn't capable of bringing her with him after the Fourth War. Like, he tried, but yeah

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



Cephas posted:

I was thinking about it and I realized how horrible everyone's family lives are in this show

yeah that's what nasu had to work with after urobutcher wrote fate/zero

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Space Flower posted:

yeah that's what nasu had to work with after urobutcher wrote fate/zero

Not sure to what extent you're joking, because most of that was at least implied in F/SN itself.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


I don't think Urobochi wrote the original novel which had Sakura raped and violated with sex bugs

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


Fate/zero is only as canon as you want it to be, anyways.

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


I thought all of the plot beats to zero were set out by nasu

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



they were. i was memeing a bit, tehepero.

but yeah, im super digging how much weight every scene in Presage Flower is able to convey. it's definitely elevated from UBW's at times superfluous fights and Zero's winding conversations.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/AsagiKurosagi/status/994614529148383239/photo/1

Hommando
Mar 2, 2012


Everyday until you like it.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

The pacing was a little weird in the first half of Heaven's Feel Part 1, though surprisingly not the very very start where I thought they did a good job of both adding in some new content to flesh out how Sakura and Shirou got to know each other and breezing through the first couple of major scenes at the start of the Holy Grail War. But after that it just felt a little too sporadic and haphazard with a couple of scenes transitioning in somewhat strange or abrupt ways. Was very happy to see Casual Clothes Caster for a hot second, and then very sad when I realized that was going to be the last major scene she'd get. After FHA this is simply too little Medea for me.

Second half made up for it though, with a lot of gnarly takes on the major fights that take place early on in HF. I was surprised that they basically moved all of the major Illya scenes out of this part of the story; presumably they will make a lot of that the meat of Part 2. Downside is that now you don't have Shirou inviting Illya to his house and trying to convince Saber to not throw a fit.

All in all a pretty decent adaption that is more or less chopping stuff it needs to and/or moving content around as necessary to help make up for how oddly setup so much of the HF route is up until its endgame.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



For how much things are moved around, I was surprised how much I loved it. I get hung up a lot of times on adaptation changes but I was super pleased with Part 1 and the way they handled things. It was also very quiet and slow in a lot of parts which I was surprised and pleased with. I was afraid things would be mashed together really brutally, though now I'm dying to see how the second and third parts are handled.

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


The early part of Heaven's Feel, and the first couple episodes of UBW, are really cool for how slowly and quietly they approach Shirou's daily life. I always thought he was kind of a bland shounen protagonist, but when the story frames him as an overly-helpful and uncomplaining boy who bears his loss and loneliness with quiet dignity, it really connects with me. I thought the movie did a really good job of showing why Sakura would admire and look up to him.

Shirou is a good boy.

Hommando
Mar 2, 2012


I made the mistake of reading about parallel worlds on the Type-Moon wiki because I wanted to know which stories existed in the same world. I cannot tell what is bad translation and what is just Nasu babble. I always though Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night existed in the same world, but it sounds like they don't. Unless I'm reading this wrong, the wiki implies that Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night don't exist in the same world either. I think Nasu doesn't like to retcon things so he plays it safe by saying every story exists in its own little bubble.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Magic#Parallel_Worlds

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010


Everything on the TM wiki is written/translated poorly, it's not a good resource. But yea, more or less every work exists in a separate timeline though they tend to be related by overall concepts, organizations, and key people.

BardoTheConsumer
Apr 6, 2017


I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!




taser rates posted:

Everything on the TM wiki is written/translated poorly, it's not a good resource. But yea, more or less every work exists in a separate timeline though they tend to be related by overall concepts, organizations, and key people.

More to the point, there are literally infinite timelines so the primary difference between the FS:N timeline and the F:Zero timeline might literally just be some tiny piece of information given in Fate that doesn't jive with what we're shown in F:Zero.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





The wiki would be a lot more charming if it had the same sort of humor about it's weirdness as the Transformers wiki.

InfinityComplex
Feb 5, 2011

Nothing better than swinging around a little girl like a flail.

I highly doubt any wiki would get close to the snark the tfwiki has

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


BardoTheConsumer posted:

More to the point, there are literally infinite timelines so the primary difference between the FS:N timeline and the F:Zero timeline might literally just be some tiny piece of information given in Fate that doesn't jive with what we're shown in F:Zero.

EMIYA comes from the true post-Zero timeline, in which Aoi Tohsaka was still alive (though insane) at the time of the Fifth War, while in the Stay Night timelines she died when Kariya strangled her. The Grail selected Aoi as the Tohsaka Master instead of Rin, and Aoi summoned Ciel as Archer. Shirou was able to save Sakura without sacrificing his ideals due to Ciel using Seventh Holy Scripture on Zouken, but not before Zouken desperately summoned the Shadow (explaining why Archer recognized it in Heaven's Feel). Shirou fell in love with Servant!Ciel, and after the war he sought out the living Ciel, hooked up with her, and obtained the shroud thingy from her.

In b4 someone digs up a quote from some obscure source that contradicts this.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:22 on May 17, 2018

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


BardoTheConsumer posted:

More to the point, there are literally infinite timelines so the primary difference between the FS:N timeline and the F:Zero timeline might literally just be some tiny piece of information given in Fate that doesn't jive with what we're shown in F:Zero.

Saber doesn't know about gate of Babylon in F/SN and also knows that kiri shot kirei. Additionally she claims she fought gilgamesh at the end of the fourth holy grail war which really doesn't happen in f/zero.


tbf the last ones the only one worth actually complaining about.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Stairmaster posted:

Saber doesn't know about gate of Babylon in F/SN and also knows that kiri shot kirei. Additionally she claims she fought gilgamesh at the end of the fourth holy grail war which really doesn't happen in f/zero.


tbf the last ones the only one worth actually complaining about.

Saber not knowing about Gate of Babylon and claiming to have fought Gilgamesh aren't even really consistent with each other, though.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



i think nasu just says the parallel world stuff so he doesnt have to field 70 questions every interview about some minor inconsistency between two things

for all intents and purposes f/sn and tsukihime take place in the same world, same with mahoyo and kara no kyoukai and stuff.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Silver2195 posted:

EMIYA comes from the true post-Zero timeline, in which Aoi Tohsaka was still alive (though insane) at the time of the Fifth War, while in the Stay Night timelines she died when Kariya strangled her. The Grail selected Aoi as the Tohsaka Master instead of Rin, and Aoi summoned Ciel as Archer. Shirou was able to save Sakura without sacrificing his ideals due to Ciel using Seventh Holy Scripture on Zouken, but not before Zouken desperately summoned the Shadow (explaining why Archer recognized it in Heaven's Feel). Shirou fell in love with Servant!Ciel, and after the war he sought out the living Ciel, hooked up with her, and obtained the shroud thingy from her.

In b4 someone digs up a quote from some obscure source that contradicts this.

I started this train of thought as a joke, but the more I think about it the more sense it makes. EMIYA had amnesia when Rin first summoned him, so he had no occasion to ask, "Wait, what happened to your mom?" He never seemed particularly worried about Sakura (despite his familiarity with the Shadow) because he never really understood how traumatized she was; Ciel would have respected Sakura's privacy a lot more than Kirei did.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Endorph posted:

i think nasu just says the parallel world stuff so he doesnt have to field 70 questions every interview about some minor inconsistency between two things

for all intents and purposes f/sn and tsukihime take place in the same world, same with mahoyo and kara no kyoukai and stuff.

This, basically.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



Hommando posted:

I made the mistake of reading about parallel worlds on the Type-Moon wiki because I wanted to know which stories existed in the same world. I cannot tell what is bad translation and what is just Nasu babble. I always though Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night existed in the same world, but it sounds like they don't. Unless I'm reading this wrong, the wiki implies that Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night don't exist in the same world either. I think Nasu doesn't like to retcon things so he plays it safe by saying every story exists in its own little bubble.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Magic#Parallel_Worlds

homurambo

Hommando
Mar 2, 2012



Akimbo Homura

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

Hommando posted:

I made the mistake of reading about parallel worlds on the Type-Moon wiki because I wanted to know which stories existed in the same world. I cannot tell what is bad translation and what is just Nasu babble. I always though Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night existed in the same world, but it sounds like they don't. Unless I'm reading this wrong, the wiki implies that Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night don't exist in the same world either. I think Nasu doesn't like to retcon things so he plays it safe by saying every story exists in its own little bubble.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Magic#Parallel_Worlds

Yeah, basically. FSN was created with the idea that it was in the same (or at least very similar) universe as Tsukihime and KnK, with references made to shared characters, but at some point around when Extra came out in a blatantly different timeline they decided to start saying that no, everything is in its own little bubble and separate, even Zero, despite the fact that it was specifically made as a prequel to FSN.

It lets them handwave over plot inconsistencies, break established in-universe rules, and do weird alternate world stuff like Apocrypha and Zero, but honestly I personally think a shared universe is more interesting from a storytelling perspective. That's just me, though.

It doesn't help that there's a lot of contradictory stuff about Nasuverse parallel worlds. On the one hand, there's supposed to be infinite universes, but at the same time the weaker timelines (aka dead ends) get weeded out by the World. Interacting with other worlds is supposed to be a super special thing that's the sole domain of Zelretch and his Magic, but that gets trampled over pretty frequently for storytelling purposes because they still want to pretend to have a shared universe while still claiming everything is separate.


Stairmaster posted:

Saber doesn't know about gate of Babylon in F/SN and also knows that kiri shot kirei. Additionally she claims she fought gilgamesh at the end of the fourth holy grail war which really doesn't happen in f/zero.


tbf the last ones the only one worth actually complaining about.

Saber only really saw GoB like twice and still hadn't figured out what the hell was up with it. I also don't think she ever saw Gil use it at it's full capacity.

Her knowing about Kiritsugu and Kirei is a bit of a plothole, yeah. I guess if she had known or noticed that they fought, she could infer it by Kiritsugu showing up alive at the end? Maybe she noticed something through her Master-Servant/Avalon link with Kiritsugu?

I actually like her claiming in FSN that she won every battle and had no equal in the fourth war in the context of Zero. It changes it from boring exposition to her lying and exagerrating her own accomplishments. She technically fought Gil at the end, it just involved him stabbing and proposing to her without her fighting back. Saber hates losing, so it's kind of in her character to be all "No, that didn't count, I totally won that fight and am stronger than that other guy" with a completely straight face.

boredsatellite
Dec 7, 2013



I think F/SN and Tsukhime have justifiable reasons for being seperate, with the whole one world having strong enough humans in the past to combat apostles and prevent them from being a gigantic threat that they are in Tsukhime. (i'm explaining this real bad)

Fate Strange Fake is probably the only one that kinda has ideas from both worlds in its universe.

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic






It's just a quick and easy way to not have to try and explain inconsistencies and poo poo that arise. The events of F/Z more or less happen leading up to F/SN but F/Z proper is a different timeline for the reason.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



Definitely much easier to say this is another slightly different timeline to cover the inconsistencies.

I do hate multiverse, but at least nasu put enough thoughts into it to become its own thing.

Look up Quantum-time lock if you donít mind slight extralla spoiler. Basically itís a detail explaination of the universe culling multiverses that strayed too far from the uhh... Ďaverageí timeline.

Also skip the grand order section for spoiler.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

Just watched Heaven's Feel

goddamn the Shirou fanservice was at an all-time high in this movie

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Bakanogami posted:

It doesn't help that there's a lot of contradictory stuff about Nasuverse parallel worlds. On the one hand, there's supposed to be infinite universes, but at the same time the weaker timelines (aka dead ends) get weeded out by the World.
It's yes but no.

There's a tier system going on.

You've got a world, with X rules. These rules will be consistent within this world.
As time passes and events happen, this world constructs a timeline of events. Sometimes events diverge, which create diverging but related timelines. For example, FSN, with the prologue and the three diverging routes.
These divergent timelines will share rules with the "parent" timeline, but some important events may have change that.
For example, in Extra's backstory the Moon Cell showed up, which has different rules within (hence why Extra works differently) and some world fuckery happened (which is why magecraft is more or less screwed outside the Moon Cell and thus magi became hackers)
For another, Tsukihime and Fate both run of the same "baseline", but in Tsuki the scales are tipped in favor of vampires (there are no Servants, which we don't know whether it's the cause or a consequence) while in Fate the scales are tipped in favor of humanity (and there are Servants). And in Strange Fake it's both because Strange Fake likes to be the snowflake.

This context is what's translated as "parallel worlds", the domain of the Second Magic. The divergence of timelines is not actually infinite. Apparently, in Nasu the passage of time only exists because there's people to observe it, so "history" and "timelines" are a product of human activity and as such the World (Alaya) manages their proliferation. This management is where QTLs and culling come in.
This set of timelines is what FGO part 1 incinerated, so as far as FGO is concerned, Tsuki, KnK and so on all burned with it.


On the level above, we've got "alternate worlds" (if I recall the terminology correctly) that exist outside the context of parallel worlds. An analogy would be that each "set" of timelines forms a tree, with each timeline a branch, and these alternate worlds are entirely different trees within the same orchard. The rules are not necessarily the same across trees.

Fate/Prototype is explicitly acknowledged to be from a different "tree" from KnK/FSN/FGO/Tsuki/Extra/etc. Arthur is not even recognized as a Heroic Spirit because as far as FGO's World is concerned he doesn't exist. He's just there because he's a slider.
Presumably, other works from Type Moon exist at this tier. There's no stated limit to how many alternate worlds there can be, presumably it's infinite.

So Timeline < Parallel World < Alternate World.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


I think medea is cute.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic






Stairmaster posted:

I think medea is cute.

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010

Dream Super Combo


Stairmaster posted:

I think medea is cute.

I was really disappointed that Medea Lily from FGO doesn't have short hair like the younger Medea from the flashbacks in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia. Short-haired young Medea was good civilization.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


Stairmaster posted:

I think medea is cute.

agreed

but personally I think Mucha's Hamlet though, now that is a cutie

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Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Stairmaster posted:

I think medea is cute.

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