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Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




I finished my rewatch of Fate Zero and Rider and Waver's arc was great and redeemed the series for me cause I really didn't like a lot of the finale.
First off, all the strangling. Like c'mon Urobuchi why all the strangling.

Secondly Kiritsugu got totally punked by the grail. He knew his philosophy was flawed, that's why he went to the lengths of seeking out a magic objects to solve a problem that he knew there was no other solution to. So when the grail drops that rule about him not being able to figure out a way to achieve world peace, it feels so cheap. He calls it out as not being a real wish granter, and he's right. But it makes the whole thing seem like more of a violent farce than a tragedy because it's not his flaws that doom him, it's the flaw in the cup. (and of course the solution to the BS choice it gives him about the ships is to have a world where the metaphorical ships would never spring a metaphorical leak. The cup should do that on the scale of all human interaction to create world peace.)

Now I gotta finish UBW to see if Shirou succeeds where Kiritsugu failed. Or if being a hero to him means something much different than creating world peace.

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Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


By the time you watch FZ you're supposed to know the HGW is a violent farce.

One recurring theme in TM works is that there's no shortcuts. Wish granters are fake at best and actively detrimental at worst. The cup wouldn't've ever worked, even without AM, because it'd be thematically wrong if it did.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



one detail I liked is that Medea mentions having pretty much instantly figured out that the grail's a bunch of poo poo and is just a vessel for mana because the founders are complete jokes as magi compared to her

I forget who mentions that the Caster class, an essential guarantee of getting a mage more skilled than anyone involved in creating or conducting the ritual, was a terrible idea, but they were totally right




as for morgan, her day will come, it just comes down to when Nasu needs mad gachabux immediately to pay off his mob debts or whatever

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Rand Brittain posted:

If people have to dig for double-digit hours to get through the first layer, then what’s in the first layer is a genuine problem, yes.
I mean it's not like literally every word out of Shirou's mouth is misogynistic, and people are questioning his issues pretty much as soon as he first drops a line about it, and the narrative immediately proves him wrong about Saber and within the structure of the story it's a problem that's resolved by basically the end of the first arc of the first route and then never really brought up again. Like he isn't really dropping lines like that in UBW or HF.

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010

by Reene


Shirou literally stays in the kitchen while his various paramours are all active in their respective fields.

PupsOfWar posted:

probably means mordred being the product of incest between arthur and morgan le fey/morgause

which in various stories took place either via mistaken identity (mallory) or sorcerous deception (a lot of modern arthuriana)

mordred being a homonculus in Fate lets you skip over a lot of complicated shenanigans, and avoids addressing why saber would knock up her half-sister

basically it is a tad funny that the guy writing a weird sex game would cut most of the weird sex stuff out of the arthurian mythos material he was borrowing from


Morgan isn't a homonculus per say, she was an artificially aged human.

Kyte posted:

By the time you watch FZ you're supposed to know the HGW is a violent farce.

One recurring theme in TM works is that there's no shortcuts. Wish granters are fake at best and actively detrimental at worst. The cup wouldn't've ever worked, even without AM, because it'd be thematically wrong if it did.


Eh, sorta. The grail more or less works a few times offscreen when people have a solid game plan. Chaldea's founder in FGO wishes for a massive Scrooge McDuck money vault and the respect of his peers or somesuch.

Pureauthor posted:

In Extella Nero claims she's a virgin, which errrrrr


Imperial Privilege.

Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Oct 14, 2018

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



The game plan is the important part. Kiritsugu didn't even have an endgame.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


It's not like anyone in the 4th HGW would have gotten a happy ending even if the grail worked as intended (Besides kayneth). Ryuusuke would have self destructed from he and bluebeards shenigans. Iskander already pointed out why wavers plan was bullshit. The only real path for happiness for kirei would have been using the grail to do brain surgery on a level that he probably wouldn't even be the same person after. Karyia would have gotten murked by Zouken before he could make a wish and Tokiomi probably would have gotten killed by gilgamesh if he actually tried to go to the root due to Gil's magic resistance and enormous ego.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Stairmaster posted:

It's not like anyone in the 4th HGW would have gotten a happy ending even if the grail worked as intended (Besides kayneth). Ryuusuke would have self destructed from he and bluebeards shenigans. Iskander already pointed out why wavers plan was bullshit. The only real path for happiness for kirei would have been using the grail to do brain surgery on a level that he probably wouldn't even be the same person after. Karyia would have gotten murked by Zouken before he could make a wish and Tokiomi probably would have gotten killed by gilgamesh if he actually tried to go to the root due to Gil's magic resistance and enormous ego.

Almost like there was some kind of theme going on there or something.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Cuntellectual posted:

Eh, sorta. The grail more or less works a few times offscreen when people have a solid game plan. Chaldea's founder in FGO wishes for a massive Scrooge McDuck money vault and the respect of his peers or somesuch.
Yeah but those aren't really big deals. To clarify, when I say "In TM there's no shortcuts", I meant in the sense of shortcutting the improvement of the self or of humanity at large. Amakusa is the bad guy because he's trying to short-circuit mankind's improvement through the Third Magic.

Nasu is a big fan of growth through hardship and this has extended to everybody that writes under his label.

E: Actually when you think about it many of the villains in Type Moon came about from trying to shortcut this process.

Kyte fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Oct 15, 2018

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.


Dynasty doesn't seem to allow hotlinking so here's what Endorph tried to post:

Darth TNT
Sep 20, 2013


Finished watching Season 1 of Fate Extra on Netflix only to discover they don't have season 2 yet. Is there a season 2?

I was enjoying it a lot more than Apocraphy.

I remember seeing the UBW movie a long time ago, but I think I'll check out the series next.


Unrelated, but considering my first encouter with the Fate series was the original stay night serie, I am eternally surprised that this came from an H VN.
How does sex factor into the story? ...or is that a really stupid question?

Hommando
Mar 2, 2012


Darth TNT posted:

How does sex factor into the story? ...or is that a really stupid question?

Mana can be transferred through bodily fluids, can you guess which ones?

"Oh no, my servant is almost out of mana. What am I going to do?"

Hommando fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Oct 17, 2018

Thuryl
Mar 14, 2007

My postillion has been struck by lightning.


Basically, whenever you see some kind of weird symbolic magic ritual or suggestive blood-drinking or whatever, that was probably a sex scene in the original VN.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014



Darth TNT posted:

Finished watching Season 1 of Fate Extra on Netflix only to discover they don't have season 2 yet. Is there a season 2?

It ends with a 3-episode continuation, Irusterias Tendousetsu. You can find subs for that on torrent sites (nyaa.si) or you can wait indefinitely for them to maybe/maybe not show up on Netflix. Streaming is weird.

Green Tea Erotica
May 5, 2010

Anything you can do I can do BETTER


Darth TNT posted:

Finished watching Season 1 of Fate Extra on Netflix only to discover they don't have season 2 yet. Is there a season 2?

The ending will be up on Netflix on October 30th I believe

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

Darth TNT posted:

Finished watching Season 1 of Fate Extra on Netflix only to discover they don't have season 2 yet. Is there a season 2?

I was enjoying it a lot more than Apocraphy.

That is not surprising to hear as the series was really mediocre besides everything involving Mordred and her master. In fact I would it if they did a spin off series that just focused on them.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Hunt11 posted:

That is not surprising to hear as the series was really mediocre besides everything involving Mordred and her master. In fact I would it if they did a spin off series that just focused on them.

There was also Achilles versus Chiron, which owned hard even if both characters involved were kind of dull.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


smh at both of you for not knowing titles

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




Darth Walrus posted:

There was also Achilles versus Chiron, which owned hard even if both characters involved were kind of dull.

I could watch Sieg vs Karna forever tbh.

Darth TNT
Sep 20, 2013


Hommando posted:

Mana can be transferred through bodily fluids, can you guess which ones?

"Oh no, my servant is almost out of mana. What am I going to do?"

....Please tell me that they never did this for Jack the Ripper.

I'll wait for a little while to see if Netflix will pick up the ending. Otherwise I'll look for it. Thanks.


Hunt11 posted:

That is not surprising to hear as the series was really mediocre besides everything involving Mordred and her master. In fact I would it if they did a spin off series that just focused on them.

Darth Walrus posted:

There was also Achilles versus Chiron, which owned hard even if both characters involved were kind of dull.
Mordred and her master were perfect. Achilles was fun and while Chiron was an insufferably perfect genius his interactions with Achilles made me forgive this.

ACES CURE PLANES posted:

I could watch Sieg vs Karna forever tbh.
I strongly dislike Sieg. Fight was amazingly psychodelic though.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Ah the sex stuff mostly applies only to the original Visual Novel.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




Darth TNT posted:

....Please tell me that they never did this for Jack the Ripper.

Jack only hungers for two things - affection from her mom and fresh picked hearts.

The latter being especially important in fgo.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Yeah, Jack goes for the other kind of bodily fluids. And organs. And anything else that would make a kosher chef scream in horror.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


Jack does almost nothing in the grand scheme of things, like most of apoc's cast.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Tae posted:

Jack does almost nothing in the grand scheme of things, like most of apoc's cast.

She does eat hearts, though, which was the topic under discussion.

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


Ccs posted:

I finished my rewatch of Fate Zero and Rider and Waver's arc was great and redeemed the series for me cause I really didn't like a lot of the finale.
First off, all the strangling. Like c'mon Urobuchi why all the strangling.

Secondly Kiritsugu got totally punked by the grail. He knew his philosophy was flawed, that's why he went to the lengths of seeking out a magic objects to solve a problem that he knew there was no other solution to. So when the grail drops that rule about him not being able to figure out a way to achieve world peace, it feels so cheap. He calls it out as not being a real wish granter, and he's right. But it makes the whole thing seem like more of a violent farce than a tragedy because it's not his flaws that doom him, it's the flaw in the cup. (and of course the solution to the BS choice it gives him about the ships is to have a world where the metaphorical ships would never spring a metaphorical leak. The cup should do that on the scale of all human interaction to create world peace.)

Now I gotta finish UBW to see if Shirou succeeds where Kiritsugu failed. Or if being a hero to him means something much different than creating world peace.

idk, I think it's totally Kiritsugu's flaw that dooms him. He says to himself that nothing could ever make his desire come true outside of a miracle, and he's willing to completely debase himself to get a chance at that miracle. He loses his wife and daughter, kills his partner, and murders a handful of people in cold blood because he can't accept that the world is an imperfect place, and he places his bets that an uncertain prize will somehow be able to miraculously make everything right

like i think it's supposed to be a bit of a red flag that it's called the "holy grail" in the first place, because historically nothing good has ever come from trying to obtain the holy grail.

for what it's worth, Madoka is Urobuchi's story of "what if you could actually have your wish granted wholesale" so you might be interested in that, if you haven't seen it yet.

Ledgy
Aug 1, 2013

Up against the wall


God all this apoc chat made me think about how unreasonable atalante's character arc was, cmon jack was in the opposite team and you were supposed to murder her at some point anyways what's your damage

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


The majority of Servants are not reasonable people.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Ledgy posted:

God all this apoc chat made me think about how unreasonable atalante's character arc was, cmon jack was in the opposite team and you were supposed to murder her at some point anyways what's your damage

Quite a lot. I mean, you ever read her myth? Lady did not have a fun life.

Ledgy
Aug 1, 2013

Up against the wall


Yeah I was pretty sure while watching that her myth had to do with kids but even so, it's a bloody war, lady

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


It's called out in FGO that she was being unreasonable.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Ledgy posted:

God all this apoc chat made me think about how unreasonable atalante's character arc was, cmon jack was in the opposite team and you were supposed to murder her at some point anyways what's your damage

Don't forget she also attempted to kill Jack prior to that whole mess and Jeanne even gave Jack a pretty peaceful death that she got upset over, so lol that character

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

I always appreciated Vlad and his boss more or less waving away the misbehavior of servants like Astolfo by saying, "well, when you summon heroes to be your champions, they're gonna do hero things even when it's inconvenient and you basically just have to put up with it."

OnimaruXLR
Sep 15, 2007
Lurklurklurklurklurk

Reading the Apocrypha manga has generally been a pretty pleasant experience compared to the anime, which I'm sure is at least partially due to the differences in pacing of manga VS anime but I can't help but wonder if it's also because I've never, ever seen a Studio A-1 action show that I've liked wholeheartedly

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Cephas posted:

idk, I think it's totally Kiritsugu's flaw that dooms him. He says to himself that nothing could ever make his desire come true outside of a miracle, and he's willing to completely debase himself to get a chance at that miracle. He loses his wife and daughter, kills his partner, and murders a handful of people in cold blood because he can't accept that the world is an imperfect place, and he places his bets that an uncertain prize will somehow be able to miraculously make everything right

like i think it's supposed to be a bit of a red flag that it's called the "holy grail" in the first place, because historically nothing good has ever come from trying to obtain the holy grail.

for what it's worth, Madoka is Urobuchi's story of "what if you could actually have your wish granted wholesale" so you might be interested in that, if you haven't seen it yet.

Yep I've seen Madoka. I liked it, except for the ending of the last movie.

Also finished season 1 of Unlimited Blade Works. Was interesting seeing things turn out differently from parts of the VN Fate route, but there's so much in terms of characters getting spared for tenuous reasons and Saber's very inconsistent powerlevel (said repeatedly she's the strongest Servant, Archer says she would have beaten him, but then she gets beaten handily by a regular human whose fists are slightly powered up?) The way Shirou's power very quickly starts to manifest without him really putting in the work (since it's only been a few days) doesn't feel earned. If he was able to accomplish things because of the specific hardening skill he'd been practicing his whole life and learned to use that in a new clever way then it'd feel more convincing.
ufotable production values are top notch across the whole season though so great job to the animation team. They're able to combine CG assets with 2d in a way that looks better than any other studio's attempts.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Saber is the 'Most Powerful" servant, but Shiro is a pretty piss poor master, in every sense. A huge part of the Fate route is that Saber can't fight well because of Shiro, be it interference in battle or, as happens, he literally can't power her properly.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


She didn't do that much better in fate/zero

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



OnimaruXLR posted:

Reading the Apocrypha manga has generally been a pretty pleasant experience compared to the anime, which I'm sure is at least partially due to the differences in pacing of manga VS anime but I can't help but wonder if it's also because I've never, ever seen a Studio A-1 action show that I've liked wholeheartedly
watch birdy the might decode

but also a-1 is a huge studio that mostly contracts/outsources so there's really no point pretending they have any kind of 'house style' that drags down their productions. heck just compare idolmaster cinderella girls to the original idolmaster anime. same studio, same franchise, insanely different styles.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Oct 18, 2018

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Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Ledgy posted:

Yeah I was pretty sure while watching that her myth had to do with kids but even so, it's a bloody war, lady
It doesn't. She was just given that character trait, because woman. The cloeset you get from her myth is not being able to have kids with his husband due to both of them being turned into lions and the Greeks having no idea how lion biology worked.

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