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MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


The real answer is that canon is bullshit.

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Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Kyte posted:

As for what exactly separates KnK from Mahoyo/Tsuki, there's been no particular statement but it's probably writer's convenience.
Itís probably to avoid the mess that is Shiki Ryougi, Saber Shiki, Nanaya Shiki, and SHIKI. They are both copy/paste of the same concept and design. Or she would overshadows the Tsukihime MC.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Nyaa posted:

Itís probably to avoid the mess that is Shiki Ryougi, Saber Shiki, Nanaya Shiki, and SHIKI. They are both copy/paste of the same concept and design. Or she would overshadows the Tsukihime MC.

My understanding is that he wrote the KnK stories as their own stand-alone thing, and then his best friend bugged him into writing a VN, and then he decided to reuse a lot of his old ideas from KnK because why not, it's not like anyone's ever going to dig up his old work and make a series of feature length films about them, right?

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

I realize canon is bullshit and ever changing. I guess I was just curious if it was considered a Tsukihime world with dead apostle ancestors or a fate world with heroic spirits, or its own separate thing. The Aozakis are referenced in both franchises, after all, and El Melloi case files gives even more hints that the events of Kara no Kyoukai happened.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Kyte posted:

if KnK and Tsuki can't connect then Mahoyo and Tsuki can't connect either.

Ahnenerbe, nyaa!

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Bakanogami posted:

I realize canon is bullshit and ever changing. I guess I was just curious if it was considered a Tsukihime world with dead apostle ancestors or a fate world with heroic spirits, or its own separate thing. The Aozakis are referenced in both franchises, after all, and El Melloi case files gives even more hints that the events of Kara no Kyoukai happened.

As a general rule you can assume characters exist across the various works' timelines, although not necessarily in the same way.
Tohno Shiki probably still exists as the scion of a demon hunting clan in KnK, but he wouldn't get the MEoDP, stuff like that.

Ledgy
Aug 1, 2013

Up against the wall


HF2 was fan-loving-tastic. Please do watch it in the sanctity of your own home however, huge nerds hollering when things got a bit (tastefully!) hot almost ruined the whole thing. The theater's sound system basically simulated earthquakes during the fight scenes, so that was a huge plus.

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010


Maybe I should be glad it didn't get shown here! :v:

Though that Salter art looked nice.

Ledgy
Aug 1, 2013

Up against the wall


HF Route Spoilers The Berserker/Archer VS Salter/Assassin fight is the clear highlight this time, the whole scene felt as intense as a roller-coaster. Really impressive stuff. For a movie I thought was going to be very slow, the pacing was pretty great! HF3 can't come soon enough.

The whole theater screamed when we saw His arm in the next movie's teaser, that was cool

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day


Released locally in three weeks :fsn:

Apocron
Dec 5, 2005


Is any of the TV stuff after Fate/Zero worth watching?

Hommando
Mar 2, 2012


Apocron posted:

Is any of the TV stuff after Fate/Zero worth watching?

2014 Unlimited Blade Works is good. It won't feel as complete as Fate/Zero since it's part 2 of a 3 part story, but it's at least worth watching.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day


I liked Fate/Extra Last Encore a lot but it's that type of series that dumps a lot of thinly contextualized information on you, then expects you to piece together the plot from that, so it's not for everyone.

Oh, and Carnival Phantasm is awesome.

OnimaruXLR
Sep 15, 2007
Lurklurklurklurklurk

I should probably wait until CCC for FGO is out so I can at least experience the setting a bit more detail than the anime had to offer but

what

what even is Extra? Did Nasu have the flu and watch all the Matrix movies back to back one day? Why's the entire thing couched in the context of a high school? Why is Vlad's master a cannibal fast food restaurant mascot? Why, other than the obvious reason, are so many of the characters returning from FSN, and why isn't there a consistent logic among them? (Rin is kind of the same, Shinji is and yet isn't, and Sakura is basically herself except she's sort of a fabrication?)

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Apocron posted:

Is any of the TV stuff after Fate/Zero worth watching?
The cooking show, and the Studio Deen adaptation with the English or Spanish dubs on. Nothing else really.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas::gas::gas:



Hommando posted:

2014 Unlimited Blade Works is good. It won't feel as complete as Fate/Zero since it's part 2 of a 3 part story, but it's at least worth watching.

Second half is kind of a mess, though. Lots of people repeating the exact same philosophical points at each other over and over against a background of exploding swords.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


OnimaruXLR posted:

I should probably wait until CCC for FGO is out so I can at least experience the setting a bit more detail than the anime had to offer but

what

what even is Extra? Did Nasu have the flu and watch all the Matrix movies back to back one day? Why's the entire thing couched in the context of a high school? Why is Vlad's master a cannibal fast food restaurant mascot? Why, other than the obvious reason, are so many of the characters returning from FSN, and why isn't there a consistent logic among them? (Rin is kind of the same, Shinji is and yet isn't, and Sakura is basically herself except she's sort of a fabrication?)

Extra was deliberately made to misdirect new players into thinking it'd be following the mold of FSN. That's why Nero's a saberface, why Emiya's back, why the nurse AI is patterned after Sakura, why it starts off in a school setting, and so on.

But it doesn't actually tie back to FSN. Rin is not Rin, it's Rin's half-cousin or something like that and is actually blonde, Shinji is just some kid wearing a Shinji avatar for some reason, etc.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Emiya Gohan is pretty easily the best animated Fate work IMO. UBW is one of the better stories to be told in the universe but as an adaption it has issues, my beloved Carnival Phantasm is still bogged down by some so-so episodes (usually Tsukihime related), Fate/Zero loses its luster the more you actually stop to think about what happens in it, Last Encore is incomprehensible, and the Deen shows are the Deen shows. By process of elimination, Gohan remains the only one unblemished. Though of course at least so far Heaven's Feel is looking pretty great so I suspect that will join it in time.

E: Yeah forgot Aprocrypha but at least that being bad wasn't really a surprise to anyone given the source material

Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Feb 26, 2019

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Animate FHA, you cowards.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Extra's plot is frankly not good. The basic concept and structure reminds me of Mega Man Battle Network 4 (the :moreevil: game), but with Type-Moon names instead of Mega Man ones.

astr0man
Feb 21, 2007

hollyeo deuroga


Everyone should watch Emiya Gohan

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

While Fate Apocrypha may be mediocre it is worth it to just watch all the Mordred scenes on youtube.

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



fate zero wasn't worth watching

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas::gas::gas:



Apocrypha at least had a few rad fights. Oddly enough, two of them involved four of the least interesting characters.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

The first Grand Order anime was super whatever but I am looking forward to the Babylonia series quite a bit.

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic






First Order was worth it for Cu kicking rear end.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017



Hunt11 posted:

While Fate Apocrypha may be mediocre it is worth it to just watch all the Mordred scenes on youtube.

When Apocrypha is doing what it's good at, it's really fun. Sadly what it was really good at was Mordred and Necro Dad and what it did the most was like everything else.

Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Feb 26, 2019

OnimaruXLR
Sep 15, 2007
Lurklurklurklurklurk

I don't know if I'm just a mark for Ishida's artwork or if he's just got fundamentally stronger storytelling skills than the anime staff, but the Apocrypha manga was pretty good from what I read. Turns out the double Siegs being boring poo poo isn't nearly as major a crime when you can exert greater influence on the pace of the story.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.


OnimaruXLR posted:

what even is Extra? Did Nasu have the flu and watch all the Matrix movies back to back one day? Why's the entire thing couched in the context of a high school? Why is Vlad's master a cannibal fast food restaurant mascot? Why, other than the obvious reason, are so many of the characters returning from FSN, and why isn't there a consistent logic among them? (Rin is kind of the same, Shinji is and yet isn't, and Sakura is basically herself except she's sort of a fabrication?)

My opinion is that Extra actually owns that it's wild that they decided to just come up with this wacky new sci-fi setting when deciding to make a Fate-themed RPG game (since they could have just kept a more "traditional" holy grail war based off the VN and still easily sold a bunch).

CCC is obviously much better than Extra, but even Extra is kinda neat. I like the new characters in both series as well.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day


I just wish it had at least decent gameplay.

Apocron
Dec 5, 2005


Does anyone have an explanation of how the 5 types of magic work? And how do they relate to the majority of mages doing magecraft?

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010


Answering the second part because it also answers your first question, they don't, they're acts that are still regarded as miracles because they're not understood. All that's really been shown first hand of them is that the 2nd involves time travel/parallel worlds, the 3rd is the materialization of the soul, and the 5th maybe has something to do with reordering, but is still not really understood.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


To be more specific, there are 5 "true magics" but none of the mages can actually do them because they're so ridiculously impossible, even to people who specialize in magic. "Miracles" is a good word for it. What mages do is something else entirely unrelated (called "magecraft" in a lot of the older translations). So basically true magic has nothing to do with most of what's going on. For the record, in Japanese the distinction is between "mahou" (magic) and "majutsu" (magecraft).

I don't quite remember all the details, but the Holy Grail itself is considered a path towards the 3rd true magic (or a recreation of it, or something). It's not quite there yet, but just remember that true magic is what lies beyond the Holy Grail everyone's searching for.

Oh, and there aren't 5 of them because 5 is some special mystical number or anything, it's just something that's only happened 5 times in recorded mage history. There could be a 6th or 7th magic that just haven't happened yet. Edit: Wait, maybe not if the Throne of Heroes is outside of time and all...

Clarste fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Feb 27, 2019

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004




Grimey Drawer

Apocron posted:

Does anyone have an explanation of how the 5 types of magic work? And how do they relate to the majority of mages doing magecraft?

The general demarcation is that Magecraft is reproducing stuff that is possible to obtain through normal scientific means. You can use magecraft to light a fire, but you could also use a match to do it. No matter how refined normal magecraft gets, it can't break through the wall of what's possible and not. Magic, on the other hand, is a miracle that does something not possible through other means.

The definition and potential of both changes over time. There's some stuff that was once defined as Magic that were shifted to Magecraft as the boundaries of science were pushed. Mages in older times, especially the age of gods, were also a lot more powerful due to living alongside mysteries that aren't common today, as well as being closer to the root. Magic was more common then, and some of the casters from older times like Merlin or Medea have been described as being users of magic or having magecraft infinitely close to it.

We currently have a moderate amount of detail about the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th magics. We know only the slightest amount about the 1st, and nothing about the 4th.

The 2nd, called Kaleidoscope, is basically parallel worlds, used by Zelretch, one of the most powerful beings in the type moon universe, who spends most of his time hopping between worlds. Practical applications are stuff like Zelretch's Jeweled Sword or the Kaleidosticks, which access mana from parallel worlds. There may only be a bit of power on each of them, but since there are a lot of parallel worlds it provides essentially an infinite supply.

The 3rd, called Heaven's Feel, is used by the Einzberns and involves "the materialization of the soul". It's at the heart of the Holy Grail War. Souls dissipate when removed from a container, and this magic lets them survive without a body and be manipulated or moved. Ilya uses it to put Shirou's soul into other stuff, and it's used in the process of summoning servants.

The 5th, called Blue, is used by Aoko Aozaki. We don't know quite as much about it. We know time travel is involved, but at the same time it's stated that's not its full potential, and that the 2nd is also able to do some forms of time travel through parallel worlds. It can do stuff like shuffle segments of time around, accessing knowledge or abilities from the future while preventing incidents in the past from occuring.

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Magic
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Magecraft

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




Bakanogami posted:

The 5th, called Blue, is used by Aoko Aozaki. We don't know quite as much about it. We know time travel is involved, but at the same time it's stated that's not its full potential, and that the 2nd is also able to do some forms of time travel through parallel worlds. It can do stuff like shuffle segments of time around, accessing knowledge or abilities from the future while preventing incidents in the past from occuring.

How I figured this one worked was just basically drawing energy/power/knowledge from an alternate universe future version of yourself that's stronger than you are. And those versions can do the same, and so on and so on to infinity.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day


No, it doesn't have to do with alternate universes; it fucks with causality within the local universe.

Powering herself up was an application, but she also removed someone's death out of timeline. She didn't even do so neatly, so everyone remembered what happened, but nevertheless she made it go away (sending the event to the far future), and the World wasn't intervening in any fashion to correct that incongruity either. That's what really hosed with Touko's head.

ED:

To elaborate, the stunts she pulled are achievable through the 2nd Magic; she could've brought in a Soujuurou from a parallel universe, replaced herself or channeled in the experiences of herself from multiple parallel worlds, and some of the combat techniques Touko theorized Aoko applied like side-stepping from reality or wearing thousands of herself over herself also fall within the purview of "interaction with parallel worlds".

But Aoko specifically wasn't doing that. She arbitrarily detached a chronological event and shuffled it to the end of the universe it wouldn't bother her. She swapped herself out for a version of herself from several years into the timeline so that she'd be an expert magus capable of taking Touko on. And her moves were making big sis mad because she was sure Aoko was, with casual ease, doing something incredibly absurd to overcome all the contingencies Touko had put in place.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Feb 27, 2019

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



As a small correction: we do actually know something about the fourth magic. We know that Avalon's defense is so perfect that not even the 4th magic can pierce it.

Now that is literally ALL we know about the fourth magic, for some bizarre reason. Kind of like how for a long time type Moon properties would reference dragons as kinds of bars for strength/special exceptions to magical beasts but not actually have any dragons. It's just a weird reference to a thing we have no frame of reference for.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Reaching the root/akasha record either transform your method of reaching it into true magic (2nd, 3rd, 4th) or you developed the True Magic to reach it (1st, 5th). But only once per method can become true magic. This is the main goal of all mages until they give up or managed to pull it off. Doesnít count if the mage decided to go inside the root, you have to not step in and come back from it.

Counter Force hates this. You are getting power that can break the world and overwrite reality. Magecraft only does thing temporary before the world fix it. Imagine UBW being permanent and can spread to anywhere on the world.

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010

Dream Super Combo


Think of reality as being like a video game.

Having access to magecraft is like having access to an in-game cheat menu.

Having access to True Magic is like being able to alter the game's source code to make changes to it while it's running.

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Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Conspiratiorist posted:

To elaborate, the stunts she pulled are achievable through the 2nd Magic; she could've brought in a Soujuurou from a parallel universe, replaced herself or channeled in the experiences of herself from multiple parallel worlds, and some of the combat techniques Touko theorized Aoko applied like side-stepping from reality or wearing thousands of herself over herself also fall within the purview of "interaction with parallel worlds".

But Aoko specifically wasn't doing that. She arbitrarily detached a chronological event and shuffled it to the end of the universe it wouldn't bother her. She swapped herself out for a version of herself from several years into the timeline so that she'd be an expert magus capable of taking Touko on. And her moves were making big sis mad because she was sure Aoko was, with casual ease, doing something incredibly absurd to overcome all the contingencies Touko had put in place.

Please tell me this is how she became the beef-eating champion, by casually using impossible magic that most mages would kill their entire extended families for a glimpse of in order to shuffle off her fullness to the end of the universe.

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