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Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Kariya is a dumb moron idiot.

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Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

I think my favorite comparison that people try to make between Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night is that Fate/Zero is about adults and Fate/Stay Night is about children, because it completely ignores that basically all the adults in Fate/Zero act like children.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


To be fair those are mostly the Zero-only folks who had to die. Kiritsugu/Kotomine/Gilgamesh are the really important ones (though I guess you could say they act like children, if you know some really hosed-up children), and they get a lot more screen time and dialogue than in stay/night.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


It is not inaccurate to say all three lack emotional maturity.

Feoffic
Feb 13, 2012



Beef Waifu posted:

Kariya is a dumb moron idiot.

I'd say he's dumber than a sack of hammers, but that's an insult to the hammers.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Redmark posted:

To be fair those are mostly the Zero-only folks who had to die. Kiritsugu/Kotomine/Gilgamesh are the really important ones (though I guess you could say they act like children, if you know some really hosed-up children), and they get a lot more screen time and dialogue than in stay/night.
You're acting like the definition of a sociopath isn't practically having the moral compass of a child, because children don't comprehend ethics. That's why children can be hosed up as well as little angels, depending on moral guidance, since they literally can't work it out on their own.

A shorter way to put it is...

Kyte posted:

It is not inaccurate to say all three lack emotional maturity.

In any case, the MOST adult characters are probably Tokiomi and Kayneth (which I'm 100% sure are not who people think about when they give the "Fate/Zero is about adults" line) because they're mostly motivated by duty and family honor, which are a bit more adult concerns than say, a devotion to childish ethics. That doesn't necessarily say much when one sells his daughter to another dude and then has that whole bullshit thing with Kariya and the other taunts a teenage student.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


tbf Tokiomi wasn't aware of just how deep the worm hole went and was otherwise doing everything correctly for the sake and well-being of his daughter as dictated by his cultural context. In addition both Tokiomi and Kariya knew they'd forfeited their rights to live when they signed up for the deathmatch so even the whole violence bit is sorta justified.

wrt Fastwheels let's be honest: Brilliant assholes that don't suffer upstart little shits that can't actually walk the walk (because Waver sucks as a mage) aren't particularly unusual. Same thing wrt violence w/ Waver as above. Honestly his great sin was being too arrogant. That's it. It's kinda sad, really. He even tried to be a good husband [within his cultural context] but the wife was too much of a bitch to care.

(It's really important to note the whole "cultural context" bit because these are people who live lives quite removed from what's "normal" to us.)

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Eh it's a huge stretch imo to say that the main chars simply "lack emotional maturity". Gilgamesh and Kotomine are straight up inhuman, which is why they're fascinating. I don't buy that you can characterize them as simply amoral. With Kiritsugu, even if he ends up as a catastrophic failure, his world view was hardened over a long life as a soldier. Just because he's stubborn and wrong about a lot of things, I don't think it makes him more childish for it than, say, Saber (and the comparison between those two is often made).

In general I think it's unfair to single out extreme ethical positions when there are anime stakes involved. These aren't salarymen. It makes sense that when the big fuckoff grail is in sight, duty and family honor are not the primary concerns. Perhaps it makes the characters less relatable, but that's what happens when everything is magic.

Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011






It's possible to have larger-than-life stakes while still having motivations be relatable and human, or at least convincingly inhuman in a way that isn't rooted in a middle-schooler's perception of morality and how to bend it.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Leaves you with a sense of moral dissonance though. In particular I'm thinking of people's reactions to Sakura's route vs. Mind of Steel... I genuinely don't think there's a right answer in those circumstances, since real humans don't get to make those calls any more, and hopefully will never have to again.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



calling kotomine and gil 'inhuman' is kinda funny considering kotomine's the one who drops this poo poo:


Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Redmark posted:

Eh it's a huge stretch imo to say that the main chars simply "lack emotional maturity". Gilgamesh and Kotomine are straight up inhuman, which is why they're fascinating. I don't buy that you can characterize them as simply amoral. With Kiritsugu, even if he ends up as a catastrophic failure, his world view was hardened over a long life as a soldier. Just because he's stubborn and wrong about a lot of things, I don't think it makes him more childish for it than, say, Saber (and the comparison between those two is often made).

In general I think it's unfair to single out extreme ethical positions when there are anime stakes involved. These aren't salarymen. It makes sense that when the big fuckoff grail is in sight, duty and family honor are not the primary concerns. Perhaps it makes the characters less relatable, but that's what happens when everything is magic.

While it's true that all three have circumstances that shaped their lives and mindsets which more or less justify their current state, they are emotionally immature. It's a simple statement of fact.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


That's not really what I meant. With Kotomine at least, I don't see how he could be seen as simply immature. He seems to me to be more like a thought experiment of what somebody who doesn't give a gently caress would do. Like with Endorph's quotes, isn't he talking about other people, placing himself outside of that classification? By the end, he just wants to see a "fetus" being born to see what would happen.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Kotomine sees himself as inhuman, but that doesn't mean he is.



Kotomine is a huge bundle of issues. It isn't that he doesn't give a gently caress, it's that he gives way too much of a gently caress. His thing with Angra Manyu isn't just idle curiosity, it's him trying out to figure out the meaning of his entire life. Shirou has a pretty telling response in his monologue, if you can forgive me for yet another VN screenshot.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


I would say Gilgamesh is also not immature. He has too much of an understanding of people, the world, and roles to be classified as something of a child. It's not that he doesn't understand other people (Quite the opposite in fact), it's that he doesn't care about the agendas of others unless they interest him. He likes Kirei because Kirei is someone who has a desire to know about himself and that pushes him to do interesting things, he likes Saber because she has an antiquated view on how to live her life and that entertains him, and he respects Iskander for being someone he recognizes as a true king. The only people he has exhibited an extreme dislike for are people who steal his possessions.

He's not amoral, he just has the sense of morality that a mythological god does.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


I'm still not convinced re: Kotomine, but I'll concede for now since I don't remember too clearly the events of HF. Maybe it's time for a re-read (though it's kind of hard to commit to, given that Hollow/ataraxia has reminded me that Nasu seriously needs to shut up about food. It's not even ironically funny any more).

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Kiritsugu is bad and all but at the same time I don't think his mindset is particularly absurd or even uncommon. Plenty of people really do not give a poo poo about the means as long as the bad guy gets got. Jack Bauer

KaneTW
Dec 2, 2011



Redmark posted:

I'm still not convinced re: Kotomine, but I'll concede for now since I don't remember too clearly the events of HF. Maybe it's time for a re-read (though it's kind of hard to commit to, given that Hollow/ataraxia has reminded me that Nasu seriously needs to shut up about food. It's not even ironically funny any more).

you shut the gently caress up food scenes own

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Everything in HA owns that game was worth the wait

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010


I'm actually working my way through the vita version now, and some of the voice acting is just fantastic, especially Makidera and Taiga:3:

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011


I want a capsaba standalone game.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Kiritsugu is bad and all but at the same time I don't think his mindset is particularly absurd or even uncommon. Plenty of people really do not give a poo poo about the means as long as the bad guy gets got. Jack Bauer
I think the most telling post in the Fate/Zero thread was someone posting an article/paper that people who super seriously subscribe to utilitarianism are very unhappy people. Even if it's not uncommon, that doesn't stop it from being childish or toxic.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Twiddy posted:

I think the most telling post in the Fate/Zero thread was someone posting an article/paper that people who super seriously subscribe to utilitarianism are very unhappy people. Even if it's not uncommon, that doesn't stop it from being childish or toxic.
If you delve too deeply into the utilitarian weeds, you'll stumble upon Peter Singer rocking back and forth asking himself why people get so upset when he says it should be okay to kill babies.

HellCopter
Feb 9, 2012


College Slice

I think I'll watch some Carnival Phantasm in preparation for next week's episode. Illya may be a creepy murderous weirdo, but I'm in no hurry to see Gil tear her heart out of her chest.

For such a weird route, Heaven's Feel ends awfully happily, doesn't it?

Soylentbits
Apr 2, 2007

im worried that theyre setting her up to be jotaros future wife or something.

HellCopter posted:

I think I'll watch some Carnival Phantasm in preparation for next week's episode. Illya may be a creepy murderous weirdo, but I'm in no hurry to see Gil tear her heart out of her chest.

For such a weird route, Heaven's Feel ends awfully happily, doesn't it?

No.

dudermcbrohan
May 14, 2013


HellCopter posted:

I think I'll watch some Carnival Phantasm in preparation for next week's episode. Illya may be a creepy murderous weirdo, but I'm in no hurry to see Gil tear her heart out of her chest.

For such a weird route, Heaven's Feel ends awfully happily, doesn't it?

The true end does. Good end very much less so.

HellCopter
Feb 9, 2012


College Slice

Well, I thought that was implied.

GodFish
Oct 10, 2012

We're your first, last, and only line of defense. We live in secret. We exist in shadow.

And we dress in black.


dudermcbrohan posted:

The true end does. Good end very much less so.

Actually I'm pretty sure Sparks Liner High is really more of a bittersweet ending than a happy one :colbert:

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Shinji's personality in the latest episode really reminds me of both Araragi and Shirou. Personally I feel like its kinda easy to see how and why Shirou and Tohsoka would be reluctant to ever kill Shinji.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

Raenir Salazar posted:

Shinji's personality in the latest episode really reminds me of both Araragi and Shirou. Personally I feel like its kinda easy to see how and why Shirou and Tohsoka would be reluctant to ever kill Shinji.

I have a feeling they wouldn't be so reluctant if they found out what he's been doing to Sakura for years, and I'm not talking about the beatings. Sadly Realta Nua removed that part of their relationship, since I feel it helps explain a lot about Sakura's character.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Myurton posted:

I have a feeling they wouldn't be so reluctant if they found out what he's been doing to Sakura for years, and I'm not talking about the beatings. Sadly Realta Nua removed that part of their relationship, since I feel it helps explain a lot about Sakura's character.
On the other hand it does make the fact that Sakura forgives him at the end of UBW really hosed up.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Endorph posted:

On the other hand it does make the fact that Sakura forgives him at the end of UBW really hosed up.

Definitely hosed up, but not out of character.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

The Heaven's Feel route has to be one of the few visual novels I've read where the H scenes actually make some sense. Seeing as Shirou and Sakura end up in a commited relationship.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


They were also awful and probably some of the worst because there were so many of them and had Sakura being a sex vampire.

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


dudermcbrohan posted:

The true end does. Good end very much less so.

The only happy ending in heavens feel is mind of steel. :colbert:

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Iretep posted:

The only happy ending in heavens feel is mind of steel. :colbert:

"Happy" only for Kotomine

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


Beef Waifu posted:

They were also awful and probably some of the worst because there were so many of them and had Sakura being a sex vampire.

Ehh. I've heard what RN replaces it with is really not significantly better.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


It's not another Nasu written sex scene, so it's infinitely better.

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it

Grimey Drawer

Beef Waifu posted:

It's not another Nasu written sex scene, so it's infinitely better.

Yeah. Anything to remove the retarded sex scenes is a good move imo. The stuff they did to replace the one in the Fate route was definitely an improvement

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Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011


Mana Dragon ftw

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