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KoB
Apr 30, 2009


So does Archer know most everything about the Grail War since he ostensibly took part in it in the past? Or is he from like, an alternate timeline where Shirou wasnt in the War?

Im wondering if he figured out Berserker's/Caster's identity or if he just knew since hes done this before.

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AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

You know, Aiko...
I really wanted to be killed by you.


KoB posted:

So does Archer know most everything about the Grail War since he ostensibly took part in it in the past? Or is he from like, an alternate timeline where Shirou wasnt in the War?

Im wondering if he figured out Berserker's/Caster's identity or if he just knew since hes done this before.

EMIYA is from a timeline where Shriou participated in the 5th HGW, but I don't think his particular iteration of it was an option in the VN. (Maybe Mind of Steel?)

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


Beef Waifu posted:

It's not another Nasu written sex scene, so it's infinitely better.

Mederlock posted:

Yeah. Anything to remove the retarded sex scenes is a good move imo. The stuff they did to replace the one in the Fate route was definitely an improvement

My beef is just with replacing it in the first place. Just cut to black before clothes come off like the all-ages patch for Tsukihime does, way the gently caress less clunky than mana dragons and worm vampires and whatever the hell. It's not like people are going to have a heart attack at the suggestion that two characters boned at one point.

WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 13, 2015

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010


AlternateNu posted:

EMIYA is from a timeline where Shriou participated in the 5th HGW, but I don't think his particular iteration of it was an option in the VN. (Maybe Mind of Steel?)

It's distinct from any of the timelines depicted in F/SN, since iirc Rin didn't even summon him as a hero in that timeline.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


LORD OF BUTT posted:

My beef is just with replacing it in the first place. Just cut to black before clothes come off like the all-ages patch for Tsukihime does, way the gently caress less clunky than mana dragons and worm vampires and whatever the hell. It's not like people are going to have a heart attack at the suggestion that two characters boned at one point.

I tend to agree. Hopefully that's what they'll do in the Tsukihime remake.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Apr 13, 2015

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


taser rates posted:

It's distinct from any of the timelines depicted in F/SN, since iirc Rin didn't even summon him as a hero in that timeline.

I think the only things we know for sure about the alternate universe 5th HGW was that Shirou summoned Saber, Shirou came into possession of Rin's pendant at some point, never decided to destroy the Grail, and eventually won the War and used it to become the hero he always wanted to be.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


LORD OF BUTT posted:

My beef is just with replacing it in the first place. Just cut to black before clothes come off like the all-ages patch for Tsukihime does, way the gently caress less clunky than mana dragons and worm vampires and whatever the hell. It's not like people are going to have a heart attack at the suggestion that two characters boned at one point.

Oh no, I just don't want to read a Nasu sex scene because it is like the most insane thing to read and makes me feel really uncomfortable except with Shiro and Rin where they have the most awkward sex imagineable and it's actually kind of funny.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


Not disagreeing, mind, I just don't think the weird roundabout way they handle it is very good compared to the extremely obvious and presumably much easier alternative.

Einander
Sep 14, 2008

"Yeh've forged a magnificent sword."

"This one's only practice. The real sword I intend to forge will be three times longer."

"Can there really be a sword as monstrous as that in this world?"

"Yes. I can see that sword... Somewhere out there..."


Sylphid posted:

I think the only things we know for sure about the alternate universe 5th HGW was that Shirou summoned Saber, Shirou came into possession of Rin's pendant at some point, never decided to destroy the Grail, and eventually won the War and used it to become the hero he always wanted to be.

Nah. He did Contract with the World eventually to get the power to use his Marble, but there wasn't any wish on the Grail. (This is a good thing, because I'm pretty sure no one wants to see how it'd interpret "save everyone.") Some of the Fate/Extra stuff (which may not necessarily apply to normal-universe Archer) suggest that due to Shirou not having Tracing (due to no Archer), he spent years using guns instead while he worked all of that out... Which would make a great sidestory. I'd be all for Gun Hero Shirou.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Einander posted:

Nah. He did Contract with the World eventually to get the power to use his Marble, but there wasn't any wish on the Grail. (This is a good thing, because I'm pretty sure no one wants to see how it'd interpret "save everyone.")
I mean the grail's kind of simple minded, which is part of the reason that Carnival Phantasm Grail-kun's sketches are pretty great. I'm positive it would just interpret "save everyone" old testament style and save all those lost sinful human souls from their own materialistic evil.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


It seems like you could just append "and don't do any horrible hosed up poo poo in the process" to your wish and sidestep the Grail's jackassery pretty easily.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

You know, Aiko...
I really wanted to be killed by you.


LORD OF BUTT posted:

It seems like you could just append "and don't do any horrible hosed up poo poo in the process" to your wish and sidestep the Grail's jackassery pretty easily.

It is the classic Monkey's Paw/Djinn wish connundrum. "Don't do horrible poo poo" is subjective, and it can be very easy to justify hosed up poo poo.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

LORD OF BUTT posted:

It seems like you could just append "and don't do any horrible hosed up poo poo in the process" to your wish and sidestep the Grail's jackassery pretty easily.

"Hey, you know what's horribly hosed up? Humans. Humans are horribly hosed up. Therefore, if I remove humans, I am actively reducing the amount of horribly hosed up poo poo."

Xarbala
Feb 13, 2011






Angra Mainyu doesn't seem like the sort of wishgranter you'd be able to outmaneuver on a technicality.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

LORD OF BUTT posted:

It seems like you could just append "and don't do any horrible hosed up poo poo in the process" to your wish and sidestep the Grail's jackassery pretty easily.

Seems like the best way short of destroying the grail outright is to wish for "do not grant anymore wishes" maybe?

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


AlternateNu posted:

It is the classic Monkey's Paw/Djinn wish connundrum. "Don't do horrible poo poo" is subjective, and it can be very easy to justify hosed up poo poo.

Or alternately just sit there for an hour plus and outline all the atrocities the Grail is not allowed to commit in the process of granting your wish, D&D minmaxer style. :v:

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Also even without Angra I don't think the Grail can do something where the person making the wish doesn't have a clear idea in mind. So Tokiomi can easily say "open a door to the root" and it'll do that, but Kiritsugu couldn't just ask it to "save the world" because what does that even mean.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012



Raenir Salazar posted:

Seems like the best way short of destroying the grail outright is to wish for "do not grant anymore wishes" maybe?

"Sure, we'll just blow up all of humanity. Then we won't have to grant anymore wishes."

Never attempt to outmaneuver a wish granting device that actively has it out for you. Just walk away or destroy it.


LORD OF BUTT posted:

Or alternately just sit there for an hour plus and outline all the atrocities the Grail is not allowed to commit in the process of granting your wish, D&D minmaxer style. :v:

Doesn't matter. That works with literal-minded genies, but not ones actively out to get you. Those will completely twist around anything you might say in order to screw you over.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Rodyle posted:

Also even without Angra I don't think the Grail can do something where the person making the wish doesn't have a clear idea in mind. So Tokiomi can easily say "open a door to the root" and it'll do that, but Kiritsugu couldn't just ask it to "save the world" because what does that even mean.
Yeah that's kind of the weird thing when it comes to the grail, and more or less comes about because of good ol' half-truths being thrown about in the Nasuverse works.

Basically, it seems like some people who have only seen Fate/Zero have a slight misconception on how the Holy Grail works (which of course is not incorrect) because the explanation has to do with how the grail functions when it isn't literally dripping in evil. The holy grail is basically a mass of energy, and if you can't give proper form to the idea or the energy it can't really do anything. As stated above, "save the world" doesn't mean anything, it doesn't direct the Holy Grail to do anything. That's the understanding that comes out of Fate/Zero.

Of course, as is known after Heaven's Feel or if you read between the lines in earlier routes, the current Holy Grail is actively malicious and destructive, and will purposefully interpret any wish in the most destructive manner possible. The energy is literally possessed by the devil, it doesn't know how to do anything but destroy.


So unfortunately for idealists like Kiritsugu, there's two layers of bullshit preventing the Holy Grail from doing gently caress all to achieve their dream.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

Beef Waifu posted:

They were also awful and probably some of the worst because there were so many of them and had Sakura being a sex vampire.

Not disagreeing that they were awful, but they still make sense within the context of the story, and their relationship.

LORD OF BUTT posted:

My beef is just with replacing it in the first place. Just cut to black before clothes come off like the all-ages patch for Tsukihime does, way the gently caress less clunky than mana dragons and worm vampires and whatever the hell. It's not like people are going to have a heart attack at the suggestion that two characters boned at one point.

This is exactly what I wanted to happen. This whole ham fisted way of trying to rewrite the story and turn her into some kind of mana vampire thing made no sense to me. Just cut to black and have him wake up in the same bed....

Now the rewriting of the Saber and the Tosaka sex scenes to be something else entirely, now that I'm on board for, seeing as those scenes actually make no sense to exist in the first place.

Myurton fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Apr 14, 2015

z0glin Warchief
May 16, 2007



So I just learned that the author of the doujin(?) that was adapted into the Carnival Phantasm anime is also the author of Kannagi. Can't say I saw that coming.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Progressing through the VN to the scene at Illya's castle, I'm amazed that Carnival Phantasm hasn't made any jokes about Tohsoka being strangely attracted to Gilgamesh's wealth.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Raenir Salazar posted:

Progressing through the VN to the scene at Illya's castle, I'm amazed that Carnival Phantasm hasn't made any jokes about Tohsoka being strangely attracted to Gilgamesh's wealth.

There are jokes about her obsession for money, such as reaction to Caren money offer and her car, named "Get Money model".

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Her magic is literally entirely based on precious gems, hell yeah she cares about money.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Gil is like a walking Piggy Bank though. :)

e: Oh christ, Lancer and Shirou are hilarious.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Raenir Salazar posted:

Progressing through the VN to the scene at Illya's castle, I'm amazed that Carnival Phantasm hasn't made any jokes about Tohsoka being strangely attracted to Gilgamesh's wealth.

Read Gilgamesh vs Rin

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


gently caress the card minigame in hollow/ataraxia is stupid and infuriating and I can't stop playing it

HellCopter
Feb 9, 2012


College Slice

I'll have to google how to play hanafuda but I don't want to

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


In light of Sella and Liz getting offed last week in UBW, it reminds me how much I loved them in Hollow Ataraxia, especially with how much Sella shat on Shirou.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Redmark posted:

gently caress the card minigame in hollow/ataraxia is stupid and infuriating and I can't stop playing it
If by stupid and infuriating you mean broken and kind of easy (unless we're just bitching about how terrible Shinji and that one ability Caster has are, yeah).

Once you figure out the AI does not play around what abilities you have at all you've broken it.


EDIT: ^^

Speaking of, haha oh man their ability in the FHA Hanafuda is broken as poo poo. The only reason I can tolerate playing against its broken rear end is because it trivializes everything when you get to use it.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Twiddy posted:

If by stupid and infuriating you mean broken and kind of easy (unless we're just bitching about how terrible Shinji and that one ability Caster has are, yeah).

Once you figure out the AI does not play around what abilities you have at all you've broken it.


EDIT: ^^

Speaking of, haha oh man their ability in the FHA Hanafuda is broken as poo poo. The only reason I can tolerate playing against its broken rear end is because it trivializes everything when you get to use it.

Not sure what you mean by AI not playing around abilities. You just get the one NP that moves a card you need to the top of the deck, right? You still have to hope that you have a card in the same month to actually take it with. Going by your post I'm sure I'm missing something obvious about the game.

And by infuriating I mean that sometimes you can't do anything about losses, especially if the opponent has first pick. Not to mention that sometimes you literally win or lose 6 points before the round even starts...

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Redmark posted:

Not sure what you mean by AI not playing around abilities. You just get the one NP that moves a card you need to the top of the deck, right? You still have to hope that you have a card in the same month to actually take it with. Going by your post I'm sure I'm missing something obvious about the game.

And by infuriating I mean that sometimes you can't do anything about losses, especially if the opponent has first pick. Not to mention that sometimes you literally win or lose 6 points before the round even starts...
Oh so the only part you're on is having the character who essentially just gives you the pieces of a royal flush and that's it.

Eventually you only more characters/teams and they each have an ability and route in the game.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

The animation and additional dialogue was gorgeous. I really liked how they animated Gil losing some of his composure.

KaneTW
Dec 2, 2011



Yeah, it was absolutely amazing. Probably best animated UBW episode so far.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Well I expected nothing about gratuitous action and back story, and that was... incredible.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Finally on Heaven's Feel. Okay, I must know. Was the scene where Archer shows up at random to Shirou's shed an april fool's joke update? I'm very confused as Shirou doesn't seem to mention it in the immediate next chapter.

e: Interesting how if Sakura had never seen Shirou trying to make the pole jump she might have ended up a much meaner character.

Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Apr 19, 2015

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



The pole jump is just the dumbest thing

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


I don't know why, but I was under the impression Illya was the one who created Seylla and Leysritt.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

UBW made me chuckle at times and smile with amusement but holy poo poo does Heaven's Feel make me laugh like an idiot. (Particularly when Sakura and Saber gang up and punish Shirou for sneaking out)

I'm going to be very sad later. :saddowns:

e: "Hmm, now that I think about it, a smart and devil-like person was in my age group too…" Was this Young Gil or Tohsoka, anyone know?

e2: And now I finally discover where the mapo tofu thing comes from. This is truly the best route.

Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Apr 19, 2015

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Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...



MonsieurChoc posted:

I don't know why, but I was under the impression Illya was the one who created Seylla and Leysritt.

She was.

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