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Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



With enough elbow grease and dedicaiton, Shiro can do anything.

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Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Sometimes he could stand to try less hard though.

Just ask Rin

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



That's why UBW Shiro is top tier Shiro.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



That scene is legit hilarious and the only sex related thing in Fate I am sad to see go.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

LORD OF BUTT posted:

Especially since they kinda have to go with the good ending for HF and not the normal ending, because the latter skips one of the best fights.
It doesn't, actually. You can still get the best fight and then have Sakura go "it's spring" for years on end.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Yeah, but I think you can only get that choice on a second playthrough? The actual HF Normal route skips the fight.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

BlitzBlast posted:

Yeah, but I think you can only get that choice on a second playthrough? The actual HF Normal route skips the fight.
Huh just looked through the flowchart and you're right. I thought that people thinking that Kirie fight = good end was just a consequence of how most people played the game, but it seems like going from Kirie fight = it's spring is actually a safety net. Fun.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.


Twiddy posted:

Huh just looked through the flowchart and you're right. I thought that people thinking that Kirie fight = good end was just a consequence of how most people played the game, but it seems like going from Kirie fight = it's spring is actually a safety net. Fun.

That moment when Light and Darkness comes in...

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

lol

Twink Jekyll

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Twiddy posted:

It doesn't, actually. You can still get the best fight and then have Sakura go "it's spring" for years on end.
yeah, or you can have the ending where everyone is happy, because you aren't a mentally hosed up manchild who posts on 4chan about how sakura is a slut

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

lol

Endorph posted:

you aren't a mentally hosed up manchild who posts on 4chan about how sakura is a slut

*gulps, straightens collar*

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

And you guys thought my post was bad.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009



Endorph posted:

yeah, or you can have the ending where everyone is happy, because you aren't a mentally hosed up manchild who posts on 4chan about how sakura is a slut

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.


LORD OF BUTT posted:

Honestly I can't see any reason for them to go with the True Ending over the Good Ending. Literally the only difference is that in the True Ending, Rin doesn't keep Saber around.

Especially since they kinda have to go with the good ending for HF and not the normal ending, because the latter skips one of the best fights.

The UBW Good Ending is dumb and just exists as fanservice for people who wanted an ending where they could give Shirou a literal harem.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

Angry Grimace posted:

The UBW Good Ending is dumb and just exists as fanservice for people who wanted an ending where they could give Shirou a literal harem.

It's Rin's harem. Also it very strongly implies Saber, Shirou and Rin go on adventures of asskicking.

vvvv Beat you like one of Kirei's orphans.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Rin. Rin gets the harem.

E: :argh:

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Endorph posted:

yeah, or you can have the ending where everyone is happy, because you aren't a mentally hosed up manchild who posts on 4chan about how sakura is a slut
Man I never said I liked that ending, drat, I just misremembered how the hell the requirements worked.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Angry Grimace posted:

The UBW Good Ending is dumb and just exists as fanservice for people who wanted an ending where they could give Shirou a literal harem.
is saber even interested in shirou in UBW

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


She's interested in him as a kitchen slave

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



UBW good is really dumb though.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

lol

I have no idea why Nasu didn't add the Caster rule breaker harem route on further installments, fucktard.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


Raenir Salazar posted:

I really wish UFO would animate that fight as a "Bad End" for the BD; if there was ever a justified reason for gouging people it'd be alternate endings like that, plus Mind of Steel.

I was talking about Shirou and Kotomine beating the hell out of each other, which you see with the Normal ending if you do it after the Good ending, but not if you go for Normal first iirc. (HF Normal also sucks rear end and I strongly prefer HF Good, though, plus I haven't played F/sn in ages, so I dunno.)

Sparks Liner High kicks rear end though.

e: also UBW True kind of requires Rin to forget that she has retardedly huge amounts of mana, whereas UBW Good does not partly hinge on a character forgetting the main magic thing they do.

WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 03:22 on May 6, 2015

Einander
Sep 14, 2008

"Yeh've forged a magnificent sword."

"This one's only practice. The real sword I intend to forge will be three times longer."

"Can there really be a sword as monstrous as that in this world?"

"Yes. I can see that sword... Somewhere out there..."


I'm pretty sure post-HF Sakura is the only person who actually has the capacity to keep a Servant post-war. It doesn't matter how much prana you have, without the Holy Grail backing you up you're just not going to manage something that powerful on anything even similar to a human supply.

UBW Good pretty much just goes "eh, gently caress it" and ignores this detail, because it's a rule and the only inviolable rule of Nasuverse is that all Nasuverse rules get broken or ignored eventually.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


I mean, that's never something explicitly stated iirc and it's actively contradicted by that ending, so I dunno.

AfroSquirrel
Sep 3, 2011



Saber can be food-powered due to her special situation, so she can stay as long as she doesn't lasersword anything.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

Einander posted:

I'm pretty sure post-HF Sakura is the only person who actually has the capacity to keep a Servant post-war. It doesn't matter how much prana you have, without the Holy Grail backing you up you're just not going to manage something that powerful on anything even similar to a human supply.

UBW Good pretty much just goes "eh, gently caress it" and ignores this detail, because it's a rule and the only inviolable rule of Nasuverse is that all Nasuverse rules get broken or ignored eventually.

Nah, it says in all three routes that the Grail provides Most of the mana but the "anchor" that keeps the Servant rooted to the world is the contract between the Master and Servant. So two things are required without the Grail, a Master-Servant with a contract, and a sufficient amount of mana. It's explicit in UBW that Rin has enough to provide for both Shirou's Reality Marble and to keep Saber around (that's why we joke it's Rin's harem). In Fate Shirou doesn't know Rin can do that and lacks his own mana and so spends time thinking the Grail can give Saber a body before giving up on the issue in some strange Japanese Romance sort of way.

In HF it's not a bonus but a requirement that Sakura has two Servants (Rider and Shirou again) to give her excess mana too or else she goes crazy again. Different strokes.

The Grail is only required for the initial summoning, it isn't explicitly required to keep the Servants around.

Budget Prefuse
Sep 26, 2011



the heavens feel normal ending is weird and bad just like akiha's normal ending in tsukihime

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Rin doesn't have an exceptionally huge amount of mana (good for a mage, but not super-awesome), so that just begs the question of why no one else did it earlier, or why Gil needed a special circumstance to explain his existence. Also, I don't think it makes any sense from Saber's perspective to want to stick around. She hasn't gone through her character development in Fate, so she should still be seeking the Grail, which no longer exists in Rin's world. And it's not like she was ever super-best friends with them in UBW: she respects them, but certainly not enough to give up her life's dream for them. The Good Ending of UBW just makes no sense at all.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 15:03 on May 6, 2015

z0glin Warchief
May 16, 2007



Budget Prefuse posted:

the heavens feel normal ending is weird and bad just like akiha's normal ending in tsukihime

It's actually great, but only if it's the first one you see, because it sets you up to be blown away by the actually good one(s).

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

z0glin Warchief posted:

It's actually great, but only if it's the first one you see, because it sets you up to be blown away by the actually good one(s).
Yeah, this is what happened with me and it made the true ending that much more satisfying. I don't think UBW Good has any real merit as an ending in the overall scheme of things.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Weird that folks who complain about UBW good have no issues with HF True.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

HF True feels earned, Shirou has to go to hell and back to get there and even then Illya still has to sacrifice herself in one of the most memorable scenes in the whole story. Whereas UBW Good comes out of nowhere and isn't really thematically rewarding.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

Clarste posted:

Rin doesn't have an exceptionally huge amount of mana (good for a mage, but no super-awesome), so that just begs the question of why no one else did it earlier, or why Gil needed a special circumstance to explain his existence. Also, I don't think it makes any sense from Saber's perspective to want to stick around. She hasn't gone through her character development in Fate, so she should still be seeking the Grail, which no longer exists in Rin's world. And it's not like she was ever super-best friends with them in UBW: she respects them, but certainly not enough to give up her life's dream for them. The Good Ending of UBW just makes no sense at all.

There's a lot of reasons why but you have to keep in mind the culture of mages and how Heroic Spirits typically act. Normally a Servant wouldn't want to stay and even if they did a Mage would be sacrificing a huge chunk of their mana to accomplish it (for most mages this is literally *all* of their mana); that and without the Holy Grail around most Servants have such an ego that as we saw with Caster it'd be insane for most mages to trust their back to a Servant.

Gil also very likely requires a lot more mana, but the simplest explanation its because Kotomine didn't have enough for Gil's NP's and fueling Lancer at the same time; while Gil was just bored and wanted to stay a kid for those ten years; some combination of the above really. As skilled Kotomine is its believable he doesn't have Rin's mana capacity, which is noteworthy in its capacity (1000, same as Saber's max capacity).

In UBW Archer tells Saber that 'the dream you search for doesn't exist'. Something along those lines, and considering that Saber learns that Archer is Shirou's ideals personified and on learning the truth of the Grail decides she wants to spend some time learning what Archer meant. Saber had already in some fashion abandoned her quest in UBW, Archer's words and her affection for Rin and Shirou is what pushes her over the edge in the Good Ending. She's trying to find out this greater truth about herself.

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


Wasn't gil reincarnated by the grail? Why would he need mana to stay around?

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

So he can use Gate of Babylon and Ea.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Nate RFB posted:

HF True feels earned, Shirou has to go to hell and back to get there and even then Illya still has to sacrifice herself in one of the most memorable scenes in the whole story. Whereas UBW Good comes out of nowhere and isn't really thematically rewarding.
Yeah. After you see Saber make peace with herself and return to her own timeframe to die it seems super cliche and bad to see her just stick around with these two random kids from the future instead

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Yeah. After you see Saber make peace with herself and return to her own timeframe to die it seems super cliche and bad to see her just stick around with these two random kids from the future instead

Another way of looking at it is that for that Shirou/Archer in the special bonus ending finally finds Saber to spend eternity with in Avalon so really one way of interpreting things is that in non-Sakura routes Saber and Shirou are destined to be with each other.

It's a happy sappy ending but in the context of UBW it works. Remember that she *hasn't* found that answer yet to be at peace with herself in UBW, so she sticks around until she finds it. Then she'll probably leave.

HellCopter
Feb 9, 2012


College Slice

The Avalon thing always sat weird with me. You're required to play the game in the order of Fate -> UBW -> Heaven's Feel, and Saber is more and more marginalized every route. By HF, Shirou's certainly not interested in dating her, and I've forgotten her purpose as anything other than "girl with sword". And that's when they bust out the *bonus true happy ending*?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

HellCopter posted:

The Avalon thing always sat weird with me. You're required to play the game in the order of Fate -> UBW -> Heaven's Feel, and Saber is more and more marginalized every route. By HF, Shirou's certainly not interested in dating her, and I've forgotten her purpose as anything other than "girl with sword". And that's when they bust out the *bonus true happy ending*?

It's meant to show that yeah, even if Shirou does become a Heroic Spirit as long as her never gives up he'll finally find peace and will be rewarded.

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Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


HellCopter posted:

The Avalon thing always sat weird with me. You're required to play the game in the order of Fate -> UBW -> Heaven's Feel, and Saber is more and more marginalized every route. By HF, Shirou's certainly not interested in dating her, and I've forgotten her purpose as anything other than "girl with sword". And that's when they bust out the *bonus true happy ending*?

Saber is the mascot of the series. That's why every Fate work needs to have its own Saber-clone.

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