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Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Sakura is more interesting than Saber but not as cool as Rin. However, I think she makes the best love interest because of how she bounces off of Shirou.

I actually liked HF for kicking the Servants to the curb and focusing on the Mages. It makes sense that the people in charge of the summoning ritual would have a manual override. This ain't a charity after all.

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Xyven
Jun 4, 2005

Check to induce a ban



The main problem I have with Sakura, and HF in general, is that it just feels like a completely different story than the first two routes. I like the story that HF tells, but it just feels so disconnected from the rest of the VN. When I read the final route in Rewrite I felt the same way.

HF seems like a psychological story that focuses on the effects of sexual abuse with the fantasy aspects being used to support that story. Fate and UBW seem like they are telling a fantasy story first and foremost, with the exploration of Shirou's psyche being used as part of his character arc inside a fantasy story. When you hit what you expect to be the climax of a fantasy story, you suddenly find yourself reading a completely different genre. It's jarring and makes it harder to appreciate the story.

Also loving cooking scenes.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



I don't really hate Sakura, but I just don't FEEL anything for her. She's got a really boring personality and her past just makes it so all you can really do is pity her. Throughout all of Fate and UBW she's kind of just there acting as a punching bag for Shinji. Then comes Heaven's Feel and I do feel bad for her, but her passive and just kind of accepting personality are really dull. She's justified in everything she feels, but I really don't care about her. Most of the potential she has to be an interesting character is kind of ruined by the fact that her only real connections are Shiro prior to Heaven's Feel and she's not around enough to actually make that connection feel like a deep friendship that would naturally turn into a relationship. Like yeah, her personality bounces off of Shiro's well so they would fit each other well, but I don't like malleable characters like that.

Shiro and Rin was the most interesting relationship to me because their personalities were so conflicting of one another that still fell in love due to coming to understand each other and make up for the other's faults. Shiro and Saber also has its moments too, for all of Saber's shame at her past, Shiro supports her and feels her life was not for nothing. Her ideals mean something and he will support her in seeing that will be preserved. For Sakura, there's none of that spark I feel from either relationship. I probably sound like a crazy person talking about this, but that's just how I feel.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



I also just like, don't like how Shinji is handled in pretty much every route. I think he's probably handled best in UBW and even there his character leaves something to be desired.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Basically just go read F/HA, it fleshes out a lot of the characters.

Sakura: the bane of door-to-door salesmen.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Eh, Sakura is basically the same as Shirou. She felt her life had no meaning so she clings desperately to the only thing she feels she has control of. HF Sakura basically acts the same as UBW Shirou, irrational stubbornness and all, so all you can do is sit back and admire their insanity. Yeah, she has a super-horrible past and all that, but honestly that doesn't really matter. The game constantly tells you that it doesn't want you to sympathize with her for it, through both Shirou and Rin. It's no use trying to understand what she's been through, so you can either accept her as she is or not. It is a flaw that she essentially doesn't exist for 2/3 of the game though.

Shinji is... just a jerk. It seems like a strange use of a character.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

F/SN just never got to dip its feet into the Issei/Shirou/Shinji love triangle.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Xyven posted:

The main problem I have with Sakura, and HF in general, is that it just feels like a completely different story than the first two routes. I like the story that HF tells, but it just feels so disconnected from the rest of the VN.
I can't speak for everyone of course but this is a big reason why I like it in the first place. The alternative would be having three Grail Wars just sort of play out normally and I don't know about you but I was pretty tapped on that front by the end of Fate.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Taiga Hot Springs outright says HF is a different matter altogether, to be fair.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Can someone remind me what the event is that sets the course for the HF route? I realised while watching episode 1 of UBW and seeing Archer get saved by the command seal that I've completely forgotten what causes the path to diverge.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Xoidanor posted:

Can someone remind me what the event is that sets the course for the HF route? I realised while watching episode 1 of UBW and seeing Archer get saved by the command seal that I've completely forgotten what causes the path to diverge.

Hanging with Sakura the first 3 days.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Shirou meets Zouken.

Chalupa Picada
Jan 13, 2009



Sakura is giving me the creeps more in this ufotable version than she has in anything else I've seen or read. Like, they really emphasized the lack of pupils and empty eyes and just some of the scenes are doing a great job of showing how fragile her state is; like especially that bit with her and Shirou leaving the house, even Shirou came across as unnerved by how off she was.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Compendium posted:

For real TM crossover shenanigans, don't forget the All Around Type-Moon manga!

http://bato.to/comic/_/comics/all-around-type-moon-ahnenerbe-no-nichijou-r3607
How have I gone this long without reading this??


YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Yasser Arafatwa posted:

Sakura is giving me the creeps more in this ufotable version than she has in anything else I've seen or read. Like, they really emphasized the lack of pupils and empty eyes and just some of the scenes are doing a great job of showing how fragile her state is; like especially that bit with her and Shirou leaving the house, even Shirou came across as unnerved by how off she was.

I have to say that I really love Ufotable Sakura. She seems more lively than the VN version.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



BlitzBlast posted:

F/SN just never got to dip its feet into the Issei/Shirou/Shinji love triangle.



A man can dream though.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


I also like Sakura a lot more in the anime. This newly ignited adoration is gonna hurt when HF comes out.

Beef Waifu posted:

I also just like, don't like how Shinji is handled in pretty much every route.
It can't be helped with the removal of a route where he's supposed to plays out his redemption/better-characterization.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

SALT CURES HAM posted:

I played it years ago with the Realta Nua patch that added most of the extra stuff and didn't really see anything like that (with the exception of that bit in the Kirei fight), but maybe it's been added since or my memory's foggy.

I was talking about a completely different version that is not the realta nua patch version that is separate from the original CD and DVD versions.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Nyaa posted:

It can't be helped with the removal of a route where he's supposed to plays out his redemption/better-characterization.

There was supposed to be more beyond the characterisation in HF, what would that even be about that wasn't already covered? :confused:

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013



I'm curious about Shinji's redemption, reason or whatever, since every other Nasu villain is given some reason, even if it is "good intention turned bad because he/she lived forever".
Shinji was just a rapist.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Shirou was brought up by Kiritsugu, then Taiga.

Shinji was brought up by Zouken.

Is there any more explanation required?

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


The thing with Shinji to me is that he's growing up completely in Sakura's shadow, given he's hopelessly inferior to her in every way and can't do anything to change that.

I could see a "redemption" moment where he realizes that he can live his life not in the shadow of Sakura or whatever, but his character is so irredeemably unlikable (and intentionally so) that I don't think many writers could have done something like that at all without it falling flat. Even with Zouken, he's so old and completely out of his mind by the end that you have to keep that in mind when he's speaking to understand a lot about what kind of man he is and what he's doing. Gilgamesh is likable in his own unique way, and Kirei is more a tragic villain than anything.

There was never any moment that you could see there was a better man underneath Shinji's exterior than what he was showing. I much prefer UBW's "putting the fear of God in him to scare him straight" approach than a genuine redemption moment.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I just don't see Shinji as every being able to be 'scared straight', though, so the resolution of UBW seems so unconvincing to me. If he can't pick on Sakura then he will pick on someone else. His personality is just that sort of nasty exploitative thing.

Reminder that the blood fort thing showed he was willing to kill literally everyone in school to get his way. Someone like that is not redeemable.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Oct 14, 2014

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Shinji is just emotionally weak in a way no other character is. Illya might be an amoral monster sometimes (her dead ends :gonk:), but she'll admit defeat and does honestly care about Shirou as her brother. Shinji only ever wants to satisfy his incredible inferiority complex and never once acts with good intentions towards anybody.

He does have a pretty good scene in F/HA where he visits Shirou and basically says "I'm leaving the minute I graduate, gently caress the Matou magi bloodline, I don't plan on coming back." which is a plan that fits 'canonically' with what post-UBW Shinji would probably do. It's still not really enough to redeem him though, given how consistently awful he is in every route, but at least passive avoidance is better then actively loving things up.

ArkhamPraetor
Sep 11, 2011


Was it ever established whether Sakura or Shinji set up the blood fort? Sakura said she didn't give Shinji her command spells until she saw Shirou's, but that happened on the way to school the day Rin notices it.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

ArkhamPraetor posted:

Was it ever established whether Sakura or Shinji set up the blood fort? Sakura said she didn't give Shinji her command spells until she saw Shirou's, but that happened on the way to school the day Rin notices it.

I think it was Rider on Shinji's orders. Pretty sure Sakura gave over command earlier than that, as the scene where Shirou notices the "bruises" of her lost command spells preceded Sakura noticing his forming.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



Fangz posted:

Shirou was brought up by Kiritsugu, then Taiga.

Shinji was brought up by Zouken.

Is there any more explanation required?

The problem is that Shinji is the only other person Sakura has at home. From what it sounds like at the end of UBW he started acting more like he did when they were younger and he wasn't always an rear end in a top hat rapist. There's more you can do with that character that also contributes to Sakura too and instead he's just a flat character. I mean at the end of the day you can make the same argument for multiple side characters like Ayako and Taiga, but no one's as in the thick of things as Shinji and has as much involvement with Sakura prior to HF than Shiro and Taiga.

I'm fine with him being scared straight, it's a perfect solution to the character that isn't straight up murdering him, but his friendship with Shiro is also something interesting that we're not given a lot of information on either.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



I liked Shinji for the first two routes (or at least I appreciated him as a good unlikable character). He was such an unmitigated failure that his actions made sense as either him lashing out or trying to prove that he was useful. I was still hoping Shirou would accept his team-up on the last route because I thought that could be interesting.

That doesn't really work in light of his HF actions, though, it was sortof disappointing to realize he was just bad. Maybe it would have worked better if Shirou was confronted with it early on as a challenge to his worldview that everyone can be saved.

SALT CURES HAM
Jan 3, 2011


I mean, he tried to rape Rin in UBW. It's not as if he acts that different in HF, he just has an easier target.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS

Irony Be My Shield posted:

I liked Shinji for the first two routes (or at least I appreciated him as a good unlikable character). He was such an unmitigated failure that his actions made sense as either him lashing out or trying to prove that he was useful. I was still hoping Shirou would accept his team-up on the last route because I thought that could be interesting.

That doesn't really work in light of his HF actions, though, it was sortof disappointing to realize he was just bad. Maybe it would have worked better if Shirou was confronted with it early on as a challenge to his worldview that everyone can be saved.

I don't think nasu would be brave enough to write a story about how the main character teamed up with a classmate who repeatedly raped his own sister for years but he's OK now because <reasons>.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Well obviously it would end up with them fighting when Shirou realizes, but at the time Shinji offers the team-up they're friends (for some reason) so it wouldn't be too strange.

Xyven
Jun 4, 2005

Check to induce a ban



Shinji is pretty transparently just a plot device, not an actual character. Literally the only reason he is in the story is because somebody had to rape Sakura. Trying to do anything with him would basically involve creating a new character from scratch.

edit: for the first two routes everytime he was on the screen I was just baffled with why there was this cardboard cutout of a character in the story, when basically every other character was a believable human being

Xyven fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Oct 14, 2014

SITB
Nov 3, 2012


But Shinji does have a point in HF though? Like it's mentioned his whole deal is that he was super proud of carrying the Matou magecraft legacy and then he found out that Sakura is the true heir and Zouken and his own father stopped giving him the time of day. He is basically super jealous of Sakura for being the true magus while he himself is meaningless nobody (Sakura befriending Shirou was probably the straw that broke the camelís back in this regard, since he probably saw it as her stealing his best friend just like she took his place in the Matou family).

You can even conceivably draw a parallel to Sakura jealousy towards Rin about how perfect her life is and how Rin has everything that Sakura wants with how Shinji views Sakura.

He was probably an rear end in a top hat regardless, just not quite a terrible person that he became after the revelation and treatment by Zouken.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Eej posted:

I don't think nasu would be brave enough to write a story about how the main character teamed up with a classmate who repeatedly raped his own sister for years but he's OK now because <reasons>.
I decided to look up spoiler for Fate/CCC on Shinji where he's forced to work with the protagonist for once, which I believe is the implyed scenario of Shinji in the removed route. Even though this Shinji is 'different' from our Shinji, he acts exactly the same and written by Nasu, so I will guess it counts for the redemption argument. He redeemed in his own way.

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


A question about the UBW route:

How could Archer kill Caster who was technically his Master at that time? Isn't it confirmed in Caster's flashback that the only way a Servant can try to kill their Master is if they run out of Command Spells? Am I missing something?

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Caster never commanded him not to do that. :v:

Archer exploits a loophole; he attacks Kuzuki, knowing full well that Caster would suicide herself to save him.

BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Oct 14, 2014

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Nyaa posted:

I decided to look up spoiler for Fate/CCC on Shinji where he's forced to work with the protagonist for once, which I believe is the implyed scenario of Shinji in the removed route. Even though this Shinji is 'different' from our Shinji, he acts exactly the same and written by Nasu, so I will guess it counts for the redemption argument. He redeemed in his own way.

Not really comparable, since Extra!Shinji is actually 8 years old.

I never found Shinji's characterization in F/SN that unbelievable. Maybe I'm just being too cynical about human nature? Shinji's motivations were explained pretty clearly in HF, at least. It also sort of explains his "redemption" in UBW. Maybe becoming the Grail (which was what Zouken planned for Sakura to do) made him realize that becoming the Matou heir was a horrible thing and he was an idiot to be jealous of Sakura for it...but probably not. More likely, the main thing keeping him in line post-UBW is fear. I honestly think Rin made a mistake saving his life in UBW, and she'll regret her decision when she finds out what he did to Sakura. (I understand why Rin did it, of course; she'd fully embraced Shirou's "save everyone" worldview.)

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Silver2195 posted:

Not really comparable, since Extra!Shinji is actually 8 years old.
Yes, I know. But he's still the 8 years old Shinji that Archer remark as the good-natured at heart version , which I wonder if his design was an allusion to child Gilgamesh

Edit: To expand on this reasoning, beside him behaving exactly like the evil Shinji regardless of Archer's comment, I'm assuming he is being gradually changed in each route like Shirou's theme of evolving ideal, which would lead him to a 'slightly better-nature' version as seen in UBW that would eventually match this 'good-natured' version of Shinji in the supposed removed route. Good natured is the wrong description for him.

Nyaa fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Oct 14, 2014

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Nate RFB posted:

How have I gone this long without reading this??




Loved the end of that chapter. I gotta say my favorite is this page though:

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Fenrir
Apr 26, 2005

I found my kendo stick, bitch!



Lipstick Apathy

I gotta say I'm pretty stoked about the UBW anime so far. It looks pretty drat good and UBW was always my favorite route, if for no other reason than the fact that Shirou goes 100% ultra badass awesome. *shoves another arm onto his body and the wounds close with steel* I am the bone of my sword.

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