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Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Silver2195 posted:

Bear in mind that there's a lot of fiction where the main character is an authorial mouthpiece. Basically, there needs to be a certain minimum level of audience trust in the author, and when it isn't forthcoming, it's often the fault, not so much of the author or the audience, but of other authors.

Also, I think a lot of people calling F/SN sexist are complaining about things other than Shirou's characterization (and Nasu himself seems to agree with some of their points).
Yeah, I know that there's a lot of works where the protagonist is an authorial mouthpiece. But when thinking about the work, it shouldn't be taken as an assumption.

Also, yeah, my argument is strongly focusing on people's thoughts of Shirou's character (which is a widely restated opinion). I am less critical of people's critique of say, whatever the hell happens with Sakura later in the story.

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rvm
May 6, 2013


I thought Sakura' s arc was pretty decent, all things considered. Maybe, it wasn't as compelling as some other stuff in HF, but she wasn't just a plot device to further develop Shirou and Rin as some people seem to think. Also, red interludes in HF are awesome and her VA did an amazing job in them (not sure if it's relevant, just throwing it out there).

rvm fucked around with this message at 21:45 on May 23, 2015

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

rvm posted:

I thought Sakura' s arc was pretty decent, all things considered. Maybe, it wasn't as compelling as some other stuff in HF, but she wasn't just a plot device to further develop Shirou and Rin as some people seem to think. Also, red interludes in HF are awesome and her VA did an amazing job in them (not sure if it's relevant, just throwing it out there).
Not wanting to really start a Sakura derail, but I like her character and arc, too. But I also recognize there's a lot there that's questionable in how it might have been done.

God this conversation really makes me want to open some of that forbidden discussion, so I guess here we go.

Silver2195 posted:

Also, I think a lot of people calling F/SN sexist are complaining about things other than Shirou's characterization (and Nasu himself seems to agree with some of their points).
I see the merit in some of the arguments calling F/SN sexist. However, I tend to get annoyed very, very quickly whenever a sexism argument comes up. It's mostly because the argument tends to somehow overshadow the rest of what is going on in the story. I know that sexism is a cultural issue, but it's not the single most important thing in the world and there shouldn't be a necessity for every single work to warp how it presents itself in all matters towards this issue. There's simply other issues that stories want to deal with. Imagine if it was expected for every single story to always have a green message, or a health message, or a specific moral message. Also, a lot of the time I see the arguments, they tend to necessitate characters taking a certain action or stances that the arguer thinks is correct, without paying lip service to the possibility that their specific interpretation of how it should take form might not be the most valid. Further, necessitating certain actions from characters in the story in order to be an acceptable presentation ultimately is removing agency from the character in question, which is hella ironic.

To me, the way I evaluate the strength of the presentation of a female character is the same standard I use for male characters; I look at their character. To me, a character with agency is a character who has ideas, has a goal, and actively takes action to achieve that goal. In this process they generally have the power to manipulate their surroundings and bring about change. That is why I love that one quote from that one interview where Nasu talks about his female characters, the faults he seems to identify in his female characters (therefore showing that his works might be a bit sexist) are just character faults. He seems to acknowledge that in quite a few cases, his female characters may be powerful and may be able to bring about change, but that their goals are either directly related to the male protagonist or become somewhat co-opted by the male protagonist. That is, they don't quite succeed in being their own independent character. That insight is something I don't ever seem to see in most people who start an argument by calling something sexist. Or I guess more specifically, it's not the focus.

EDIT:
TL;DR Rin is a good character.

Twiddy fucked around with this message at 22:32 on May 23, 2015

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



I think throwing out "the worst writing and most heinous misogyny etc etc" in the first review of the adaptation and then saying people aren't allowed to talk about the source material and whether or not it's sexist is disingenuous.

Rin rules

Kinu Nishimura
Apr 23, 2008

YOU'RE NOBODY


My fave F/SN lady is Taiga

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Caster Blaster

KaneTW
Dec 2, 2011



Rodyle posted:

Caster Blaster

There was a Caster H-scene?

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


I generally like all the girls from all across TM's properties.

From Fate though, Bazett, Rider, Rin, and Extra!Saber are great.

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


KaneTW posted:

There was a Caster H-scene?

The only thing approaching that would be in the VN, when it talks about how Kuzuki met Caster, Caster was nearly out of mana and told him what he needed to do to give her more.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

lol

Extra Saber is a huge bro

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Sylphid posted:

The only thing approaching that would be in the VN, when it talks about how Kuzuki met Caster, Caster was nearly out of mana and told him what he needed to do to give her more.
hell yeah kuzuki

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

TheLovablePlutonis posted:

Extra Saber is a huge bro
Yeah playing through Extra the second time (infinitely less fun than the first time, they need to cap how much information they give you or something) I had Red Saber as my servant. She actually ended up being a very interesting interpretation of her legend and a fun character! Too be she had to be a Saber clone with a ridiculous dress.


EDIT:
My waifu is Ryougi Shiki. This has been dictated for me.

Twiddy fucked around with this message at 23:05 on May 23, 2015

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


Also, favorite TM heroines would have to be Saber (I've liked her since I first read the Fate route), Azaka, and Aoko Aozaki. I've also got a soft spot for Sakura, but she wouldn't make my top three.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Arcueid is the first TM heroine I absolutely adore and still do to this day. Ryougi Shiki is up there as well.

rvm
May 6, 2013


Saber Alter. Not sure why, but I find her to be one of the coolest characters ever. Design, voice acting, theme music, everything is just perfect.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




Ciel. Duh.

(Also Mordred.)

Adelheid
Mar 29, 2010



I can't wait for the Mech-Hisui arc of the Tsukihime remake

Rent-a-Bot
Oct 20, 2012

FOOL! DOCTOR DOOM DOES AS HE PLEASES!
:gaz: :gaz: :gaz:


Glad to see the thread title better express the contents found within it.

Mederlock
Jun 23, 2012

You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it

Grimey Drawer

This loving thread. What is it with Weabs and their waifu nonsense? Like, even when doing it ironically, it's still posting about waifu's.

That being said, Taiga is still the best character

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Rent-a-Bot posted:

Glad to see the thread title better express the contents found within it.
holy poo poo sick burn

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Mederlock posted:

This loving thread. What is it with Weabs and their waifu nonsense? Like, even when doing it ironically, it's still posting about waifu's.

Yeah, it's kind of weird that a type of posting that would get you mocked on Beast's Lair (let alone Zorak-era ADTRW) is so accepted here now. At least use the fig leaf of saying "favorite female character" instead. :v:

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 01:44 on May 24, 2015

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

lol

Both the stinky homos who claim to be ironic and the ones that try to suppress their posting style just to fit with the place should be murdered.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

lol

Yeah, Casko is my wife. Wanna do something about it, bitch?

Butt Frosted Cake
Dec 27, 2010



you might be a psychopath if you can't form some kind of emotional attachment to a character you like

Butt Frosted Cake
Dec 27, 2010



Upon further thought I have decided Nasu's prose is ok for what it is. He just relies so much on exposition I wish I could enjoy the words on the screen more.

KaneTW
Dec 2, 2011



Silver2195 posted:

Yeah, it's kind of weird that a type of posting that would get you mocked on Beast's Lair (let alone Zorak-era ADTRW) is so accepted here now. At least use the fig leaf of saying "favorite female character" instead. :v:

i want to marry tamamo-no-mae

Kinu Nishimura
Apr 23, 2008

YOU'RE NOBODY


I don't want to marry any Fate characters, but I think the characters I like are cool, and it is unfortunate when their life stinks. I felt bad for Assassin.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Is there an actual date on the HF movies yet, incidentally?

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



BlitzBlast posted:

Is there an actual date on the HF movies yet, incidentally?

We still don't know if it's even multiple movies.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009



Someone show me a good Bazett avatar and i'll buy it, tia.

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010


Karen has always been powerful


Mederlock posted:

This loving thread. What is it with Weabs and their waifu nonsense? Like, even when doing it ironically, it's still posting about waifu's.

That being said, Taiga is still the best character

Thanks for posting your waifu

Stall_19
Jan 2, 2013

Prodigy of Victor von Doom


I expect the FSN UBW episode review thread at ANN will be interesting to watch these next few days.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Stall_19 posted:

I expect the FSN UBW episode review thread at ANN will be interesting to watch these next few days.


id rather be what michael jackson is right now than read the ann forums

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



holy poo poo the ann review for the latest ubw ep is the worst thing ive ever seen

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



In feminist (or even antifeminist) rhetoric, “alpha male” describes the socially-prescribed masculine ideal. They are physically, socially, and sexually dominant. It also denotes a lack of “feminine” characteristics, such as submissiveness and emotional reciprocity. If you aren't this ideal, or are seen as possessing an insufficient amount of masculine traits by some inconsistent standard, you're an inadequate “beta male” who gets the leftovers in terms of economic, social, and romantic opportunities. Of course, this is a toxic dichotomy. In order to be a healthy person, you need a balance between stereotypically masculine and feminine traits – a sense of control over your own life but respect for other people's boundaries. Shirou is a “beta male” because he's an introvert who enjoys housekeeping (stereotypically feminine work) and messing around with systems. He pines after the unapproachable hot girl, Rin. Eventually, she chooses him over more conventionally attractive men like Archer and Lancer. FSN is a fantasy that teaches young men to be comfortable in their own skins, deliberately combating the weaknesses of the alpha ideal with the strengths of the beta's balanced traits. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that on its own – the problem begins when the story promotes the bad attitudes about women that cross over the alpha/beta dichotomy. For example, the idea that women prefer “alphas” while discriminating against “betas.” In reality, women are individuals with no generalized preference for partners, and both groups can equally alienate potential partners through their toxic behavior. While perceived “alpha males” steamroll through other people's boundaries, “beta males” adopt a victimization complex that makes them overlook the ways in which they may victimize others, most often women.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009



Find me a good Bazett avatar, instead of talking about ANN again, please.

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Ibram Gaunt posted:

Find me a good Bazett avatar, instead of talking about ANN again, please.

i looked and there isn't any good bazett fanart

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Ibram Gaunt posted:

Find me a good Bazett avatar, instead of talking about ANN again, please.
please? you sound like a real beta male...

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



there is good bazett fanart, but i cant post it in this thread

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Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009



Cake Attack posted:

i looked and there isn't any good bazett fanart

Thank you for trying.

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