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BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

As a tangent, I love how like 90% of F/SN fanworks are set after Fate or UBW, because there's just nothing you can do with Shirou anymore after HF. He's not traveling the world as a superhero magus, he's not studying in London with Rin, hell he's not even really fit to fight anymore. He's just living a (relatively) regular life in Fuyuki, and it owns.

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



i liked that battle moon wars took heaven's feel as canon

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



sakura got a badass themesong, in battle moon wars

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Raenir Salazar posted:

What do you mean? We have the whole fight with Gilgamesh and then the epilogue where he either becomes Besties with Rin or Besties with Rin and Saber. The butterflies have basically bulldozed that future into oblivion.

Those have absolutely nothing to do with his ideal though. Actually, I'm not entirely sure why you found the fight with Gilgamesh relevant at all. I guess the whole "faker" stuff was resolved there, but that was never really a big problem in the first place. We already know that Kiritsugu's own ideals ruined his own life, so the fact that they're borrowed is less relevant than what they are themselves.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Twiddy posted:

Yeah that's the much more standard method of approaching this particular brand of heroism, like in the first Spiderman live-action movie where Green Goblin goes, "Now, choose!" The thing I kind of like about the UBW approach is that Archer is saying, "I'm literally from the future, there IS no third option. You can't find it, it's not there. Do you still want to keep trying this?"

I mean, if that was actually tested, one of the choices would have to die. That's the point of Archer being there saying you can't do it.

EDIT:

I guess what I'm saying is, do you want Shirou to try to save Mary Jane and the school bus and break his back in the process because realistically you can't save everyone? Or for the schoolbus of kids to die? Because that's the actual conclusion that UBW is aiming for, and it's really not pretty when put in that context.

Despite not liking that movie as a whole, I actually liked that scene, because Peter really did make a choice. He focused on saving the bus full of kids first, even if he did manage to save Mary Jane afterward. Moreover, it seemed very clear to me that Peter's choice was the only moral one under the circumstances. Of course, this isn't actually the same dilemma Shirou faces in Heaven's Feel (and arguably the specific HF dilemma is a very contrived one, but perhaps more interesting for that reason).

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 05:00 on May 25, 2015

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Endorph posted:

sakura got a badass themesong, in battle moon wars

DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

Man, BMW had some really great animations by the end. Too bad about everything beforehand. :smith:

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Clarste posted:

Sure, why not? That wouldn't have been a terrible ending.

Wasn't that Saber's ending in Fate?
Fair enough. I mean the point of Archer coming back and saying that that is his ending is that that's the conclusion he's gonna have. That's the test, knowing that's the conclusion. I'm not gonna question your desire to see him follow through on it. Hell, they might even add that in to this adaptation (they won't, but it would put a final nail in that coffin).

Clarste posted:

Those have absolutely nothing to do with his ideal though. Actually, I'm not entirely sure why you found the fight with Gilgamesh relevant at all. I guess the whole "faker" stuff was resolved there, but that was never really a big problem in the first place. We already know that Kiritsugu's own ideals ruined his own life, so the fact that they're borrowed is less relevant than what they are themselves.
Yeah the whole faker thing is entirely a personal hang-up of his. Part of Archer's self-hatred that he's throwing at Shirou is that he just incorporated the ideal, and his shot back is, "bitch, I incorporated that ideal, understand it completely, knowing its conclusion and all its flaws, accepted it, and made it my own. I ain't a faker and I ain't stealing poo poo, this is mine!"

I guess the important part about the fight is that in order to fight on Gilgamesh's level, he had to perfectly understand the end result of his ideals and all its flaws. So I guess the answer is that that's where your answer and resolution is given, in a super metaphorical way.


Silver2195 posted:

Despite not liking that movie as a whole, I actually liked that scene, because Peter really did make a choice. He focused on saving the bus full of kids first, even if he did manage to save Mary Jane afterward. Moreover, it seemed very clear to me that Peter's choice was the only moral one under the circumstances. Of course, this isn't actually the same dilemma Shirou faces in Heaven's Feel (and arguably the specific HF dilemma is a very contrived one, but perhaps more interesting for that reason).
I'm not saying that conclusion is bad. My point was more "that's what this is usually about but UBW is approaching it from a slightly different angle."

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

I just came to that conclusion and I feel stupid as hell now. I had all the pieces, but I didn't put it together until this conversation.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



The point of UBW is that even though Kiritsugu and ultimately Archer became utilitarian weirdos the concept of putting your effort and your literal magic into the cause of saving people isn't a waste of time. It also features as a key part of the ending Rin swearing to make sure Shirou doesn't forget that he himself is a person of value. We know this doesn't guarantee he'll avoid Archerizing but that's not really the point, the point is that the idea itself isn't inherently poisonous.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Allow me to come at this in a more lucid way.

Clarste posted:

Those have absolutely nothing to do with his ideal though. Actually, I'm not entirely sure why you found the fight with Gilgamesh relevant at all. I guess the whole "faker" stuff was resolved there, but that was never really a big problem in the first place. We already know that Kiritsugu's own ideals ruined his own life, so the fact that they're borrowed is less relevant than what they are themselves.
The Gilgamesh fight is extremely relevant, it's the answer you're looking for. Shirou's ability to copy swords by understanding their structure and composition is metaphorically linked to his ability to understand the structure and composition of his ideal. This is why Archer keeps calling his projections weak and poo poo. Thus, in order to have strong projections that held the core essence of the swords he needed to fight Gilgamesh, Shirou had to understand his ideal inside and out. He had to perfectly understand his ideal, all its faults, its endpoint, everything about his ideal, and accept them. In understanding that ideal, he can produce projections (and more importantly, understand their use and how to wield them) on a level that allows him to beat Gilgamesh.

His defeat of Gilgamesh is the metaphorical surrogate for him smiling while being hanged on the gallows.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Rodyle posted:

The point of UBW is that even though Kiritsugu and ultimately Archer became utilitarian weirdos the concept of putting your effort and your literal magic into the cause of saving people isn't a waste of time. It also features as a key part of the ending Rin swearing to make sure Shirou doesn't forget that he himself is a person of value. We know this doesn't guarantee he'll avoid Archerizing but that's not really the point, the point is that the idea itself isn't inherently poisonous.

That's not his ideal at all though. His ideal is to save everyone, and ultimately the most people possible once his scale gets larger. If he has to compromise on his ideal and just save the people he can, then it's not his ideal anymore. And HF also shows him compromising his ideal anyway, to save the people he loves instead of strangers. So, basically, if he has to compromise on both paths, then it's not really doing a good job of showing that the ideal isn't poisonous.

Twiddy posted:

Allow me to come at this in a more lucid way.

The Gilgamesh fight is extremely relevant, it's the answer you're looking for. Shirou's ability to copy swords by understanding their structure and composition is metaphorically linked to his ability to understand the structure and composition of his ideal. This is why Archer keeps calling his projections weak and poo poo. Thus, in order to have strong projections that held the core essence of the swords he needed to fight Gilgamesh, Shirou had to understand his ideal inside and out. He had to perfectly understand his ideal, all its faults, its endpoint, everything about his ideal, and accept them. In understanding that ideal, he can produce projections (and more importantly, understand their use and how to wield them) on a level that allows him to beat Gilgamesh.

His defeat of Gilgamesh is the metaphorical surrogate for him smiling while being hanged on the gallows.

I guess this becomes more obvious when you remember the whole point of the Reality Marble. I actually have to wonder why we didn't think of this earlier.

But, I would still say that's bad writing, possibly even worse writing, because the idea that he actually understands his ideal is antithetical to the fact that the story refuses to give us a simple answer. "I'll keep searching, even if I know it's impossible", as you mentioned earlier, is more compelling than "I'm done searching, but it wasn't all that interesting so I'm not gonna mention it ever again."

Clarste fucked around with this message at 05:38 on May 25, 2015

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747


It's possible for one permutation of the idea to be poisonous, but for others to be totally okay.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


LORD OF BUTT posted:

It's possible for one permutation of the idea to be poisonous, but for others to be totally okay.

And if Shirou had said to Archer: "Okay, you have a good point, how about I change the ideal a bit to make it more tenable", then that would have been a perfectly logical conclusion, if perhaps anticlimactic. But that's not what happened.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Clarste posted:

That's not his ideal at all though. His ideal is to save everyone, and ultimately the most people possible once his scale gets larger. If he has to compromise on his ideal and just save the people he can, then it's not his ideal anymore. And HF also shows him compromising his ideal anyway, to save the people he loves instead of stranger. So, basically, if he has to compromise on both paths, then it's not really doing a good job of showing that the ideal isn't poisonous.

The key phrase. The game goes over the idea of how Shirou would like to save both killer and victim but also makes clear that he understands this isn't always, or even usually, possible. This of course can lead into the compromise of Archer, and in the later work Kiritsugu, to just start playing the number game. Shirou rejects the notion of outright sacrifice as a basic premise and would, ideally, still try to save both, because that's the ideal outcome.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Clarste posted:

And if Shirou had said to Archer: "Okay, you have a good point, how about I change the ideal a bit to make it more tenable", then that would have been a perfectly and logical conclusion, if perhaps anticlimactic. But that's not what happened.

He doesn't outright say it because it's an obvious conclusion and straight up saying it would be the least dramatic possible execution.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Rodyle posted:

He doesn't outright say it because it's an obvious conclusion and straight up saying it would be the least dramatic possible execution.

I just watched the episode yesterday, and so did you. He says that Archer's right, but also not right, and that he's terrified of the path he sees in front of him but will walk it anyway. His conclusion isn't that "Archer did it wrong, I'll learn from his mistakes", it's that "I am doomed to become Archer if I keep following this path, but I won't regret it because I'm not a pussy like him".

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Clarste posted:

I just watched the episode yesterday, and so did you. He says that Archer's right, but also not right, and that he's terrified of the path he sees in front of him but will walk it anyway. His conclusion isn't that "Archer did it wrong, I'll learn from his mistakes", it's that "I am doomed to become Archer if I keep following this path, but I won't regret it because I'm not a pussy like him".
I am referring to the route as a whole and not the adaptation thereof.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Rodyle posted:

I am referring to the route as a whole and not the adaptation thereof.

Well, it's been a long time since I played. You have any quotes or anything? Because the adaptation matches up to how I remember it. The conflict between him and Archer is almost entirely about regret, not the actions themselves.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Citations are for essays about the cold war, not the ideology of visual novels so I am going to say no. Someone else can dig through the ending or we can just wait on the show. Fwiw though you are correct on him at least feeling that IF he ends up as Archer he won't regret it. My point was that iirc by the end he also makes clear that he has no intention of actually falling into that trap, and Rin's farewell to Archer is her swearing to ensure that.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Clarste posted:

Well, it's been a long time since I played. You have any quotes or anything? Because the adaptation matches up to how I remember it. The conflict between him and Archer is almost entirely about regret, not the actions themselves.
Which is the point. Shirou's saying "What we did isn't wrong,.". It's not wrong that Shirou spends his life trying to save everyone, failing because it's impossible to save everyone but still saving a lot of people, and getting hung at the gallows. Archer's at fault for looking back and saying "that was a bad idea," because even though he didn't achieve his ideal, he still saved a lot of lives. Archer shouldn't regret spending his entire life trying to save everyone, he should look back and be proud at all he accomplished by attempting to achieve this impossible ideal.

And then as we showed, after Shirou sees the end result and still convinces himself that he's right and that he'll have no regrets, that's tested against Gilgamesh and his resolve is proven after his victory.

Roll credits, Shirou gets to be with Tohsaka and possibly Saber for the rest of his life.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS

The really dumb thing is that alternate universes are a major thing in the nasuverse but Archer is really convinced that Shirou is going down the same path. Even though just by showing up he's powering Shirou up to the point that he won't need to strike a deal anymore to become a hero of justice. Also that Rin would bitch slap the hell out of him when he acts stupid.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Eej posted:

The really dumb thing is that alternate universes are a major thing in the nasuverse but Archer is really convinced that Shirou is going down the same path. Even though just by showing up he's powering Shirou up to the point that he won't need to strike a deal anymore to become a hero of justice. Also that Rin would bitch slap the hell out of him when he acts stupid.
I mean my favorite interpretation is that he's just venting on his past self because he's so frustrated and feels it was all meaningless and then that past self comes back and says "Dude, it's not all meaningless didn't we save a lot of people that's a good thing."

And then that Archer in future-not-time because I'm not even gonna really try to think about how causality works outside of time is satisfied that he did good in life.

Classy Hydra
Oct 30, 2011

You did wrong, Jack,
rest your soul.

Clarste posted:

But, I would still say that's bad writing, possibly even worse writing, because the idea that he actually understands his ideal is antithetical to the fact that the story refuses to give us a simple answer. "I'll keep searching, even if I know it's impossible", as you mentioned earlier, is more compelling than "I'm done searching, but it wasn't all that interesting so I'm not gonna mention it ever again."

Clarity of purpose isn't necessarily knowing what the answer is, rather it's knowing what it is you're searching for in the first place.

Prior to UBW, Shirou was aware that he wanted to be a hero, but he didn't particularly examine why this was the case. Following his confrontation with Archer, he has a clearer look on his philosophy, why he has that philosophy, and what it actually means to him. Thus, he has no inner doubts, no need to waver, and can find security in his answer- because he's finally managed to articulate and understand the reason behind the governing principle in his life. The element under interrogation, and which ultimately ends up growing, isn't actually his philosophy itself but rather his own ability to understand and respect his own nature.

I'm actually pretty surprised this is halfway common opinion. Fate/Stay has an intentionally complex relationship with heroes, so it really shouldn't be a shocker that one arc concludes by saying it's worth it to become a hero, while another emphasises the importance of remaining human. Hell, even the first route intentionally plays with both themes.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Ultimately, I think it's a problem of "show, not tell". UBW tells us a lot of things about Shirou, but it doesn't really show any of them (unless you count the Gil battle as showing them metaphorically). So ultimately, I came away from it with the feeling that Shirou was all talk, a stupid teenager who doesn't want to admit that he might change his mind in the future, and it's gonna be hard for others to change that opinion because nothing else is really shown one way or another.

To be honest, my favorite scene in UBW is the one where Rin yells at him about how broken he is, right after Berserker dies. I found that far more satisfying and emotionally cathartic than the Archer scenes. Because he realizes that something's wrong with him, and that he's desperately clinging to this ideal for dear life. Going "yeah, but that's cool" afterward doesn't actually convince me that it's cool.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 10:58 on May 25, 2015

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

For me the defining moment story-wise in UBW for the Emiyas doesn't come from one directly involving Shirou, but rather a bit from the perspective of Archer which is played at the very very end right before or after the credits of I think the true end. It's a flashback to his fight with Shirou and he has this sort of epiphany about how for all he suffered he "wasn't wrong, after all" after seeing Shirou stand up to him.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Clarste posted:

Ultimately, I think it's a problem of "show, not tell". UBW tells us a lot of things about Shirou, but it doesn't really show any of them (unless you count the Gil battle as showing them metaphorically). So ultimately, I came away from it with the feeling that Shirou was all talk, a stupid teenager who doesn't want to admit that he might change his mind in the future, and it's gonna be hard for others to change that opinion because nothing else is really shown one way or another.

To be honest, my favorite scene in UBW is the one where Rin yells at him about how broken he is, right after Berserker dies. I found that far more satisfying and emotionally cathartic than the Archer scenes. Because he realizes that something's wrong with him, and that he's desperately clinging to this ideal for dear life. Going "yeah, but that's cool" afterward doesn't actually convince me that it's cool.

I don't understand exactly what more you want it to show. Unless you want all three routes to just do the Heaven's Feel Paladin Breaks Vows thing

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



the game could show you a thousand things and you still wouldn't accept it, man.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



What even is this argument about?

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010


Karen has always been powerful


Suprising how ubw doesn't have shirou reach the same conclusions as hf and fate, seeing as he/you makes different choices which led to different experiences.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Beef Waifu posted:

What even is this argument about?
shirou is a lame idiot who i want to neg

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



I want him and Rin to get married is my feeling on the matter

Namtab
Feb 22, 2010


Karen has always been powerful


The lewdest anus...

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



imo shirou and sakura should get married

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



and then saber and rin can get a partnership certificate in shibuya

KaneTW
Dec 2, 2011



Worm-human-marriage isn't allowed yet hth

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



Endorph posted:

imo shirou and sakura should get married

no

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



purple hair is gross

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


Beef Waifu posted:

purple hair is gross

Nonsense. The best hair color.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Beef Waifu posted:

purple hair is gross

Isn't it actually supposed to be black?

the wonders of anime technicolor hair

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Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



I don't remember specific descriptions, but looks purple to me.

Meanwhile Shinji's blue hair makes him look handsome and refined.

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