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BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

That was in HF though. :v:

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Randomzx
Jul 26, 2007


Fangz posted:

I just don't see Shinji as every being able to be 'scared straight', though, so the resolution of UBW seems so unconvincing to me. If he can't pick on Sakura then he will pick on someone else. His personality is just that sort of nasty exploitative thing.

Reminder that the blood fort thing showed he was willing to kill literally everyone in school to get his way. Someone like that is not redeemable.

But UBW Shinji didn't get much better.

quote:

Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Characters, p.134-135

Q: In your original manuscript, does Shinji become a better person after he survives Rin’s route? And does have the potential to find happiness...?

A: No fundamental changes, but since a great burden was lifted off his back (his obsession with sorcery), he'll probably be able to enjoy life as a fussy, loudmouthed, smarter-than-average, troublesome person.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Kubla Khan posted:

A question about the UBW route:

How could Archer kill Caster who was technically his Master at that time? Isn't it confirmed in Caster's flashback that the only way a Servant can try to kill their Master is if they run out of Command Spells? Am I missing something?

Except that in one of the dead ends at the end of the Fate route Saber guts Shirou despite him having command seals left (I think) which would run contrary to that.

Also why is everyone using spoiler tags for things that relate to UBW? I don't think any anime watcher that doesn't want to get spoiled is going to read this thread. :v:

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


When I said positive things about Apocrypha's characterization earlier in this thread, I should have said everyone except Jack and Reika. Jack and Reika are terrible.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Well we know it's difficult but not impossible for a servant to go against a command seal. It depends on the magical power of the user and the independence of the servant (Gilgamesh seems to be basically immune). So maybe Archer (with his independent action skill) can easily ignore them while Caster can't. And Saber can ignore Shirou's if she really wants to because Shirou isn't that magical.

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


To be honest, my time through stay night I didn't really "get" the problem with using all three Command Spells. The dialogue was saying it's a bad idea, because then your Servant could do anything they wanted, up to and including turning on their Master, but all of the Servants, with the exception of Lancer (kind of. He likes Bazett, but hates Kirei), and Caster liked the person who summoned them. Even if Archer does betray Rin, it wasn't really out of malice and more of his hands being tied regarding Shirou.

zero made it a lot clearer why the Command Spells are important. Three chances to compel your Servant to do something specific or gain a very momentary advantage, like teleporting somewhere or what have you. If you use them for stupid things, then other Masters still have those chances you wasted.

Yosuke
Dec 21, 2006

Emperor of Steel


Irony Be My Shield posted:

Well we know it's difficult but not impossible for a servant to go against a command seal. It depends on the magical power of the user and the independence of the servant (Gilgamesh seems to be basically immune). So maybe Archer (with his independent action skill) can easily ignore them while Caster can't. And Saber can ignore Shirou's if she really wants to because Shirou isn't that magical.

Independent Action is a skill that simply describes how long a Servant can last without actually being connected to a Master's mana pool, not how well they deal with Command Spells. Archer was never really contracted under Caster during the betrayal, and was solely reliant on Independent Action keeping him around for the duration. The entire reason the alliance happens is because he wanted Rule Breaker to hit him because Rin used a Command Spell to actually stop him from attacking Shirou.

Gil can't be ordered around in FSN because he doesn't actually have a master/command seal relationship. He survives on an indefinite Independent Action skill and feeds off a different source for prana to fuel his normal abilities.

As for why you can't use all three of them, it was made clear in Fate (though never practiced) in the explanation that once you use up all three, you're out of the War. You are no longer the master and thus, there is no connection: the Servant has no mana to use to stay in Fuyuki. Its an immediate forfeit, basically.

Yosuke fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Oct 15, 2014

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Sylphid posted:

zero made it a lot clearer why the Command Spells are important. Three chances to compel your Servant to do something specific or gain a very momentary advantage, like teleporting somewhere or what have you. If you use them for stupid things, then other Masters still have those chances you wasted.

The teleporting and whatnot existed in the original too, you must have forgotten. Actually, that's the only thing they've ever really been used for. Shirou teleported Saber to save his life. It's kind of funny how the characters make a big deal of them but they're never really important to the story.

Yosuke posted:

As for why you can't use all three of them, it was made clear in Fate (though never practiced) in the explanation that once you use up all three, you're out of the War. You are no longer the master and thus, there is no connection: the Servant has no mana to use to stay in Fuyuki. Its an immediate forfeit, basically.

Yup. A Master without a Servant is still technically in the game, but a Master without a command seal is just some ordinary Mage. They are no longer qualified to have the Grail grant their wish, no matter what they do. Unless they steal another command seal from someone else. Eh, it's the Nasuverse: rules are meant to be broken.

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Yosuke posted:

Independent Action is a skill that simply describes how long a Servant can last without actually being connected to a Master's mana pool, not how well they deal with Command Spells. Archer was never really contracted under Caster during the betrayal, and was solely reliant on Independent Action keeping him around for the duration. The entire reason the alliance happens is because he wanted Rule Breaker to hit him because Rin used a Command Spell to actually stop him from attacking Shirou.

Gil can't be ordered around in FSN because he doesn't actually have a master/command seal relationship. He survives on an indefinite Independent Action skill and feeds off a different source for prana to fuel his normal abilities.

As for why you can't use all three of them, it was made clear in Fate (though never practiced) in the explanation that once you use up all three, you're out of the War. You are no longer the master and thus, there is no connection: the Servant has no mana to use to stay in Fuyuki. Its an immediate forfeit, basically.

The way I've always understood it, Servants need Masters for two things. First, to provide mana to sustain(and heal in case of injury) their material form and fuel their abilities- this is actually the less important part. The Grail summons Servants with big enough mana pool to last them a couple of days without receiving any from the master-vide Saber, and Servants can acquire mana through other means, like Rider, Caster and Gil!Archer.
The second, more important function is to act as an anchor of sorts, keeping Servants in a time and space where they don't belong. Servants with Independent Action can remain in the world for some time, dependant on the rank of the skill, Servants without it fade away almost immediately. Archer WAS contracted to Caster- Rule Breaker seems to automatically transfer the Command Spells to her from the Master of whoever she has stabbed.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Sylphid posted:

To be honest, my time through stay night I didn't really "get" the problem with using all three Command Spells. The dialogue was saying it's a bad idea, because then your Servant could do anything they wanted, up to and including turning on their Master, but all of the Servants, with the exception of Lancer (kind of. He likes Bazett, but hates Kirei), and Caster liked the person who summoned them. Even if Archer does betray Rin, it wasn't really out of malice and more of his hands being tied regarding Shirou.

zero made it a lot clearer why the Command Spells are important. Three chances to compel your Servant to do something specific or gain a very momentary advantage, like teleporting somewhere or what have you. If you use them for stupid things, then other Masters still have those chances you wasted.

HF has a rather different explanation, IIRC: if you run out of command spells, then you are unable to win the War. That's because the final spell is ultimately used to *betray* the Servant, consuming the Servant so that the Grail can be completed. Or maybe I am misremembering?

A master without command spells can still obtain command spells by various means.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Fangz posted:

HF has a rather different explanation, IIRC: if you run out of command spells, then you are unable to win the War. That's because the final spell is ultimately used to *betray* the Servant, consuming the Servant so that the Grail can be completed. Or maybe I am misremembering?

Nope that's pretty much how I remember it too. Since servants are pretty much invurneable to everything non-servant you need the command spells to force them to kill themselves which completes the grail.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Fangz posted:

HF has a rather different explanation, IIRC: if you run out of command spells, then you are unable to win the War. That's because the final spell is ultimately used to *betray* the Servant, consuming the Servant so that the Grail can be completed. Or maybe I am misremembering?

The "complete" grail, the one reaching the Root, need 7 Servants, but the "apparent" grail, the Giant cluster of magical energy created during the Great Grail filling, is already usable with 5 or 6 Servants.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



It's still totally possible to win with no command seals and have a contract, but that makes you a big dummy like Waver and you are totally reliant on your Servant's goodwill at that point.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Rodyle posted:

It's still totally possible to win with no command seals and have a contract, but that makes you a big dummy like Waver and you are totally reliant on your Servant's goodwill at that point.

Pretty sure the Grail itself wouldn't recognize you at that point, so even if you beat up all the other Servants with your own bare fists you still couldn't win because there's no win condition. You might as well say that a random bystander who happened to not die also "won". I mean, yeah, you could beg a Servant to make a wish that favors you (the grail being made of pure evil notwithstanding), but if they wish for world peace or whatever than everyone in the world is just as much the winner.

...I just don't think it counts.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Clarste posted:

Pretty sure the Grail itself wouldn't recognize you at that point, so even if you beat up all the other Servants with your own bare fists you still couldn't win because there's no win condition. You might as well say that a random bystander who happened to not die also "won". I mean, yeah, you could beg a Servant to make a wish that favors you (the grail being made of pure evil notwithstanding), but if they wish for world peace or whatever than everyone in the world is just as much the winner.

...I just don't think it counts.

I think you are mixing that up. Command Seals are a sing of you being chosen by the Grail, not a cause. Once chosen, you are eligible for the Holy Grail, regardless of the number of Command Seals you posses or if you have a Servant. For an example, supervisors of the Grail War, like Risei, have multiple extra Command Seals for "safekeeping" even before the War begins, but they don't summon Servants and are not recognized as Master.

As was stated above by other posters, the whole thing with needing Command Seals to win is because you need all 7 Servants to create a complete Grail capable of reaching the Origin. So the victorious Master needs at least 1 Command Seal to order his/her Servant to kill itself, or the Grail wont be able to perform its intended function.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

And if you end up with 1 seal and a Servant with A or higher Magic Resistance you're kinda SoL.

Hommando
Mar 2, 2012


Is there any master in the fifth war that even realizes the grails real purpose?

If anyone knows, it's Illya.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Kirei and Zouken probably both figured it out. Caster also claims that she immediately understood its true nature and thus the inherent futility of fighting for it.

Also the other reason you need a command seal is that even if you don't want to go for the full 7 Road To the Root prize, you still might need to get your servant to back off of their own wish unless you have someone like Diarmuid who just wants to give it to you anyway.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


I'm not sure Zouken still remembers: by the Fifth Grail War Zouken's body is falling apart to the point of him becoming pretty much senile and he just wants to use Grail to become immortal. Just before he dies, he remembers what the Grail is and why does he wants it, but I don't think he realized it beforehand.

Outside of him, yeah Kotomine knows for sure and so does Caster. Illya does as well, because she was the one who delivered the whole exposition about the true purpose of Holy Grail War in Heaven's Feel. Sakura might know about it, considering she is a heir of Matou family and was trained by presumably more lucid Zouken to be utilized in next Grail War, but either way, she doesn't care.

Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Oct 15, 2014

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


You'd think Tohsaka would know but who knows honestly, Kotomine might have kept her in the dark about it.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Either way when you summon super murderghosts it's quite useful to to have a way to prevent your Servant from killing you. The War is predicated on betrayal, after all.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Iretep posted:

You'd think Tohsaka would know but who knows honestly, Kotomine might have kept her in the dark about it.

Tohsaka definitely doesn't know. Her knowledge of the Holy Grail War is totally filled with holes by design.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

If Rin knew half of what was going on she's have busted Sakura out years ago.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Lt. Lizard posted:

I think you are mixing that up. Command Seals are a sing of you being chosen by the Grail, not a cause. Once chosen, you are eligible for the Holy Grail, regardless of the number of Command Seals you posses or if you have a Servant. For an example, supervisors of the Grail War, like Risei, have multiple extra Command Seals for "safekeeping" even before the War begins, but they don't summon Servants and are not recognized as Master.

As was stated above by other posters, the whole thing with needing Command Seals to win is because you need all 7 Servants to create a complete Grail capable of reaching the Origin. So the victorious Master needs at least 1 Command Seal to order his/her Servant to kill itself, or the Grail wont be able to perform its intended function.

I dunno about the first part since honestly the situation never comes up and isn't relevant. I don't think there's any real evidence of my position though so okay.

As for the second part though, as people have been pointing out, absolutely none of the Masters chosen for the 5th War can possibly "win" by your definition, since the only one who knows anything about it is Ilya and she dies as part of the process. So in that sense, even being chosen by the Grail is irrelevant because they couldn't "win" in the first place. Having a command seal, having a servant, all of that becomes irrelevant. And even if they knew, I doubt any of them except maybe Rin would consider it a win anyway.

So, for my purposes, I was defining a win as having access to the infinite mana that is a side effect of the 3rd Sorcery or whatever. That's the wish that everyone else is fighting for, and it's clearly possible to use that without ordering your Servants to kill themselves. Of course, then you run into the "grail is made of pure evil" problem, but that's not a function of the system itself such much as an accident of the 3rd War.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005



BlitzBlast posted:

If Rin knew half of what was going on she's have busted Sakura out years ago.

During that one scene where Sakura is telling her about all the terrible stuff she went through Rin was just sort of like "eh sorry but I just don't care, my life wasn't perfect either" so I'm not so sure about that.

AfroSquirrel
Sep 3, 2011



BlitzBlast posted:

If Rin knew half of what was going on she's have busted Sakura out years ago.

If Rin knew half of what she thinks she knows, she'd have been unstoppable.

She'd even be able to program a VCR unaided.

Ytlaya posted:

During that one scene where Sakura is telling her about all the terrible stuff she went through Rin was just sort of like "eh sorry but I just don't care, my life wasn't perfect either" so I'm not so sure about that.

Wasn't that during the fight in the cavern? Pretty sure she was trying to goad Sakura into attacking out of anger.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Ytlaya posted:

During that one scene where Sakura is telling her about all the terrible stuff she went through Rin was just sort of like "eh sorry but I just don't care, my life wasn't perfect either" so I'm not so sure about that.
The thing with Rin is that she tries to play the cold, calculating Magus role but is actually terrible at doing so. At that point in the story she is basically psyching herself up to kill Sakura for the good of the world only to flub it at the last second when she realizes she can't actually hurt her sister.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Rin asks Sakura to forgive her during the Harem end.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


AfroSquirrel posted:


She'd even be able to program a VCR unaided.


Blu-Ray Recorder :colbert:

Seriously, though. I think part of the charm of most characters is that, despite the other-worldliness that surrounds them, they are people with fundamentally grounded flaws. Except, of course, Shinji.

Pierson
Oct 31, 2004





College Slice

I do like how the Grail was never actually used even before it was corrupted. The first and second they gently caress it up and then the third time they really, really gently caress it up.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Eej posted:

Maybe I'm just older or maybe it's just ufotable being good at what they do but I'm liking Sakura a lot more in the UBW anime. Maybe her polite nature comes off better in motion than in text? Gonna suck for her when Rin comes in and steals him away.

For me I started liking her the moment she kinda stood up and corrected Shirou in a forceful enough way to make him take a step back. :allears:

Soylentbits
Apr 2, 2007

im worried that theyre setting her up to be jotaros future wife or something.

Ytlaya posted:

During that one scene where Sakura is telling her about all the terrible stuff she went through Rin was just sort of like "eh sorry but I just don't care, my life wasn't perfect either" so I'm not so sure about that.

Rin is not so good with the words.

Myriad Truths
Oct 13, 2012


Well, at that point Sakura was lashing out and trying to kill everyone mostly out of self-pity. When I read that scene I was mostly just agreeing with Rin. I mean, it's one thing that Sakura had a miserably bad life and another thing that she was using it to justify a murder spree.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Raenir Salazar posted:

For me I started liking her the moment she kinda stood up and corrected Shirou in a forceful enough way to make him take a step back. :allears:

In HA, Sakura's pretty much all about gently intimidating everyone she meets into submission.

Zouken and Shinji practically live by her whim alone. :allears:

EDIT: Oh and she also talks about cooking a lot. It's like the one conversation both Shirou and her are most comfortable with, so they fall back on it whenever things get awkward.

BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Oct 16, 2014

FormerPoster
Aug 5, 2004



Hair Elf

Eej posted:

Maybe I'm just older or maybe it's just ufotable being good at what they do but I'm liking Sakura a lot more in the UBW anime. Maybe her polite nature comes off better in motion than in text? Gonna suck for her when Rin comes in and steals him away.

No, it's not an age thing. I went through and read all of HF again two days ago, and yet I still like the little of Sakura I've seen in UBW more than any part of her in any FSN arc. Maybe she's just a character that needs to be animated to not come off as so - for lack of a better phrase - one dimensional?

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Pierson posted:

I do like how the Grail was never actually used even before it was corrupted. The first and second they gently caress it up and then the third time they really, really gently caress it up.
I also like how this makes complete sense. The original plan is convoluted and requires the unwilling help of other powerful agents. I can understand that getting the necessary vast quantities of energy in the right place doing the right thing is probably super hard, but that doesn't change the fact that the resulting mechanism is unstable as hell. They were setting themselves up for multiple failures before success.

And then the Einzberns had to be sore losers and dump a tanker full of evil into the prize pool without telling anyone.

Randomzx
Jul 26, 2007


Twiddy posted:

I also like how this makes complete sense. The original plan is convoluted and requires the unwilling help of other powerful agents. I can understand that getting the necessary vast quantities of energy in the right place doing the right thing is probably super hard, but that doesn't change the fact that the resulting mechanism is unstable as hell. They were setting themselves up for multiple failures before success.

And then the Einzberns had to be sore losers and dump a tanker full of evil into the prize pool without telling anyone.

The thing with the counter force is that it often tries to make any attempt at reach the root fail. Making third party notice the situation or making things more likely to fail. The counter force nudging Ryougi Shiki in the direction of Araya is sort of an example (I guess the involvement of the Nazi and the imperial army that resulted in the destruction of the lesser grail in the 3rd Holy Grail War is also an example). If all hell breaks lose, then it sents the counter guardian in the form of the forces of nature.

quote:

Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Counter Force [Others]

Counter Force [Others]
The Counter Force here is the safety device formed by the collective unconsciousness.
The prayer to avert the demise of mankind, Alaya.
And the prayer to extend the life of the planet, Gaia.
These are the two aspect of the Counter Force.
Both aspects have the goal of extending the existence of the current World. They will eradicate the factors that threaten to destroy the World at the moment of their occurance.
Since the Counter Force is the unconscious, its appearance draws no attention, and no one will recognize it.
The Counter Force is a formless spiral of power. It adjusts its scale based on the target that needs to be obliterated. The Counter Force will always appear with a status above the target, enough to absolutely secure a victory.
Normally, the Counter Force empowers "a normal person" to remove the factor that can trigger destruction. As a result, these individuals are worshiped as "Heroes".
Individuals who became Heroes through the aspect of Alaya are said to be integrated into Alaya after death. However, the accuracy of this statement is uncertain.
These individuals are also called Counter Guardians. The emphasis here is "Counter", because they have no autonomy and will only activate in response to an event.

Randomzx fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Oct 16, 2014

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Can someone with a better memory of Tsukihime go over all of the Tohno Family Shenanigans? I was trying to think of how to summarize the game to someone, and while Near Side was pretty clear I couldn't remember Far Side more than Shiki breaks a chair and Crimson Red Vermilion.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Scrree posted:

Can someone with a better memory of Tsukihime go over all of the Tohno Family Shenanigans? I was trying to think of how to summarize the game to someone, and while Near Side was pretty clear I couldn't remember Far Side more than Shiki breaks a chair and Crimson Red Vermilion.

The family had superpowers that made them go crazy, dad decided to solve this issue by the handy expedient of child rape (of Kohaku). Also there was another kid, also called Shiki, but spelt differently as SHIKI, unlike our protag Shiki who is adopted. Just like his daddy, SHIKI is a child rapist. But Kohaku drugs him up into going crazy so SHIKI murders dad and is hidden away.

After dad died, Akiha fired everyone except Hisui and Kohaku, and the two sisters switched personalities for some reason, thus confusing the gently caress out of everyone and especially Shiki who liked Kohaku. Anyway Kohaku plots some kind of convoluted revenge scheme against everyone, including drugging Shiki to make him go nuts, and eventually SHIKI dies, Kohaku realises she wuvs Shiki, and the game ends.

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Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

I wonder how much of that will survive in the Tsukihime remake, even if it was just background information.

Specifically the Tohnos were demon/human hybrids that had a tendency to go insane. Also Makihisa only adopted protag-Shiki (after murdering his whole family/village) because he thought it was funny that he had the same name as his own son. Swell guy.

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