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Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


Lt. Lizard posted:

I think you are mixing that up. Command Seals are a sing of you being chosen by the Grail, not a cause. Once chosen, you are eligible for the Holy Grail, regardless of the number of Command Seals you posses or if you have a Servant. For an example, supervisors of the Grail War, like Risei, have multiple extra Command Seals for "safekeeping" even before the War begins, but they don't summon Servants and are not recognized as Master.

As was stated above by other posters, the whole thing with needing Command Seals to win is because you need all 7 Servants to create a complete Grail capable of reaching the Origin. So the victorious Master needs at least 1 Command Seal to order his/her Servant to kill itself, or the Grail wont be able to perform its intended function.

During the HF route, Tohsaka tells Shirou:

"What are you saying? Even if you've lost your Command Spell and your Servant, you're still Saber's former Master. You were somehow chosen by the Holy Grail, so you have the right to obtain the Holy Grail until the very end. You're still my rival even though you're powerless."

So either it's either that she's clueless (which seems unlikely, given how narrative's been structured so far) or that you don't need Command Seals to claim the Grail.

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Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

You need 7 servants' worth of energy to reach the root, which only the founding families of the war (Tohsaka, Matou, Einzbern) know about; all other participants are just in it for the wishes or prestige. For that, yes you need one spare Command Spell to force them to kill themselves. However no one else IIRC knows of this aspect of the ritual, and just want the wish giving capability. For that the grail only needs a bare minimum of 5 servants (see: the end of Fate/Zero) though 6 would be more ideal if it's a bigger wish. By the time of the 5th war however it seems like only Illya, having been sent directly from the Einzberns, is still ostensibly working towards reaching Akasha though she doesn't personally care for it herself. Zouken completely forgot about it until the very end of Heaven's Feel.

Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Oct 16, 2014

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Nate RFB posted:

You need 7 servants' worth of energy to reach the root, which only the founding families of the war (Tohsaka, Matou, Einzbern) know about; all other participants are just in it for the wishes or prestige. For that, yes you need one spare Command Spell to force them to kill themselves. However no one else IIRC knows of this aspect of the ritual, and just want the wish giving capability. For that the grail only needs a bare minimum of 5 servants (see: the end of Fate/Zero) though 6 would be more ideal if it's a bigger wish. By the time of the 5th war however it seems like only Illya, having been sent directly from the Einzberns, is still ostensibly working towards reaching Akasha though she doesn't personally care for it herself. Zouken completely forgot about it until the very end of Heaven's Feel.

Well, Zouken does remember about the whole "creating a hole for the Root" thing, he just forgot that it was his original goal.
And not even the Einzberns are interested into Akasha, they see it as a secondary effect of reacquiring their lost sorcery.
So the last mage who did care about reaching the Root using the Grail was Tokiomi

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


Was Ilya ever really motivated to win the war? If she knew the true nature of the Grail and how the war is supposed to end, there's no way she'd be too enthusiastic about the war coming to the end. My guess is she's more interested in punishing Shirou in any number of horrible ways than killing off Servants.

Always seemed kinda counterproductive of the Einzberns to send in the sacrificial lamb to be the Master of Berserker, even if she was really the only one capable of controlling him. Even if she made it to the very end, with only one Servant left, there's so way she'd order Berserker to kill himself, and like with Irisviel, the more the Grail gets filled, the worse she's off. I do like how it's a consistent theme with the Einzberns that they'll do ANYTHING to get to the Grail, including all of their antics during the Third War, splitting the duty of fall girl and Master during the Fourth War, then going to the trouble of summoning Hercules and leaving nothing to chance by sending in their own Master in the Fifth War.

The Tohsaka seem to mostly play on the level, the Matou are on a sharp decline, but the Einzberns are just obsessed with reaching the Root.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Sylphid posted:

Was Ilya ever really motivated to win the war? If she knew the true nature of the Grail and how the war is supposed to end, there's no way she'd be too enthusiastic about the war coming to the end. My guess is she's more interested in punishing Shirou in any number of horrible ways than killing off Servants.
Not at all. She only cares about getting revenge (if we're being charitable, closure) against Kiritsugu/Shirou.

I believe for the Einzberns reaching the root was more of a technicality; the very process of doing so would allow them to recover the Third Magic.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Sylphid posted:

Always seemed kinda counterproductive of the Einzberns to send in the sacrificial lamb to be the Master of Berserker, even if she was really the only one capable of controlling him. Even if she made it to the very end, with only one Servant left, there's so way she'd order Berserker to kill himself, and like with Irisviel, the more the Grail gets filled, the worse she's off. I do like how it's a consistent theme with the Einzberns that they'll do ANYTHING to get to the Grail, including all of their antics during the Third War, splitting the duty of fall girl and Master during the Fourth War, then going to the trouble of summoning Hercules and leaving nothing to chance by sending in their own Master in the Fifth War.
I've always felt like it's not that they wanted the Root more than the other two families, but that they were more desperate. From my memory, their family line just naturally sucked at combat, so they had to find increasingly creative ways to even have a chance of winning. It does end up being the same, though. Despite all the crazy poo poo everyone else pulls, they take the craziest risks that we're told about in the setting.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I think in comparison to the previous war, the Einzberns are very much a spent force. For the fourth war, they brought together the best Master, the best Servant, a regeneration/shielding artifact capable of tanking Ea, an assassin on the side, and a vaguely cheaty split master thing. Even with Tohsaka also going all out, they pretty much won the war... Except that they were betrayed at the last minute.

Ilya was lucky to have summoned berserker, but she was never designed for this war, and she doesn't represent anywhere near the same degree of commitment Kiritsugu did. I think she was in the end just an attempt to make some use of time-limited assets. Einsbern just wasn't really even trying any more.

korrandark
Jan 5, 2009


I had some questions about the Holy Grail War. How are the heroic spirits chosen? I remember in Fate/Zero that you could choose what hero you wanted by having something that belonged to them, but what if you didn't have anyone in mind? How are the heroic spirits put into categories(like Saber or Lancer)? Is it random or is there someway to manipulate the system?

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


korrandark posted:

I had some questions about the Holy Grail War. How are the heroic spirits chosen? I remember in Fate/Zero that you could choose what hero you wanted by having something that belonged to them, but what if you didn't have anyone in mind? How are the heroic spirits put into categories(like Saber or Lancer)? Is it random or is there someway to manipulate the system?

Catalyst decides hero (so far everybody we know has been summoned with one), with personality as a secondary criterion (mostly if more than one hero is tied to the catalyst, I s'pose). Each class has certain requirements, the most relevant of which is, obviously, the choice of weapon, but many heroes fit for more than one class. There's been examples of people manipulating the summoning ritual to get a specific class, although we have no good idea what happens if you ask for a class that doesn't match the hero.
Assassin is a special case because the class itself is its catalyst, as it will call one of the Hassan-i-sabbah, aka the originators of the term 'assassin'.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


korrandark posted:

I had some questions about the Holy Grail War. How are the heroic spirits chosen? I remember in Fate/Zero that you could choose what hero you wanted by having something that belonged to them, but what if you didn't have anyone in mind? How are the heroic spirits put into categories(like Saber or Lancer)? Is it random or is there someway to manipulate the system?

If you summon without a physical relic, you use yourself as a relic, summoning a Heroic Spirit with a personality similar to your own. Even if you use a physical relic, you summon the Heroic Spirit with the closest personality of all those associated with the relic. An example from Apocrypha: When Kairi used a fragment of the Round Table as his relic, he summoned Mordred, because Kairi isn't a moral or honorable person. However, if someone like Shirou used the same relic, he'd be more likely to get Arturia. On the other hand, if you use Avalon as a relic, you'll always get Arturia; that she has a similar personality to Shirou is coincidence/fate, I guess?

In practice, almost everyone seems to summon a Servant similar to themselves in important ways. The main exceptions that come to mind are Kayneth/Diarmuid, Medea/Kojiro, Gordes/Siegfried, and Selenik/Astolfo. I guess you could argue that Medea and Kojiro are similarly "empty," have pointless goals, are indifferent to the deaths of innocent people, etc., while Diarmuid counts as Sola-Ui's summon rather than Kayneth's.

Zasze
Apr 29, 2009


Fangz posted:

I think in comparison to the previous war, the Einzberns are very much a spent force. For the fourth war, they brought together the best Master, the best Servant, a regeneration/shielding artifact capable of tanking Ea, an assassin on the side, and a vaguely cheaty split master thing. Even with Tohsaka also going all out, they pretty much won the war... Except that they were betrayed at the last minute.

Ilya was lucky to have summoned berserker, but she was never designed for this war, and she doesn't represent anywhere near the same degree of commitment Kiritsugu did. I think she was in the end just an attempt to make some use of time-limited assets. Einsbern just wasn't really even trying any more.

well this war was also a huge surprise to everyone it was not supposed to show up for another X amount of years. It seems like everyone was still spent from the last war and just through in whatever they had on hand.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Silver2195 posted:

In practice, almost everyone seems to summon a Servant similar to themselves in important ways.
I think it is similar and/or complimentary to the master. I don't think fate apocalyphy is a good reference since it is not design and written by Nasu. Fate/extra, however, is a great reference since everyone summon servant with themself as the catalyst.

FormerPoster
Aug 5, 2004



Hair Elf

Silver2195 posted:

In practice, almost everyone seems to summon a Servant similar to themselves in important ways. The main exceptions that come to mind are Kayneth/Diarmuid, Medea/Kojiro, Gordes/Siegfried, and Selenik/Astolfo. I guess you could argue that Medea and Kojiro are similarly "empty," have pointless goals, are indifferent to the deaths of innocent people, etc., while Diarmuid counts as Sola-Ui's summon rather than Kayneth's.

Lancer was also not Kayneth's first choice, but then Rider's personality agreed with him even less (and Rider said as much). It would have been interesting to see what happened if Kayneth actually tried to use that artifact to summon Rider.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Nyaa posted:

I think it is similar and/or complimentary to the master. I don't think fate apocalyphy is a good reference since it is not design and written by Nasu. Fate/extra, however, is a great reference since everyone summon servant with themself as the catalyst.

On the other hand Extra uses a completely different system.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


There's definitely a way to choose what container Heroic Spirits are put in since Heracles was specifically summoned as a Berserker because the Einzberns were paranoid of being betrayed yet again. He technically qualifies for every class except Caster and would have been strongest as an Archer but oh well, we got BerserCar out of it.

Eej fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Oct 16, 2014

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

There was a scene in Zero where Zouken made Kariya add some sort of incantation to his summoning to ensure that he got a Berserker. So they have some control over it, provided of course that the classes are available in the first place.

KoB
Apr 30, 2009


Eej posted:

There's definitely a way to choose what container Heroic Spirits are put in since Heracles was specifically summoned as a Berserker because the Einzberns were paranoid of being betrayed yet again. He technically qualifies for every class except Caster and would have been strongest as an Archer but oh well, we got BerserCar out of it.

Why is Archer so good? Tohsaka seemed glad he got archer/Gil too. But then I thought Saber was the "strongest" class?

I guess that neither show has had an archer be Archer either.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Berserker's best NP is normally a bow.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

KoB posted:

Why is Archer so good? Tohsaka seemed glad he got archer/Gil too. But then I thought Saber was the "strongest" class?

I guess that neither show has had an archer be Archer either.
Saber is superior to Gil in a lot of specific areas and is on the whole a much more balanced class; it's just that none of that matters when you have the arsenal that Gil does.

HellCopter
Feb 9, 2012


College Slice

How are the Heaven's Feel movies going to work? Will they spend the first 40 minutes rehashing the common route events with "Shirou sees Zouken" thrown in? Because this thing is gonna take like three movies to go through.

Then again, this is the industry that released two Madoka movies that were literally just the series, re-animated.

Iretep
Nov 10, 2009


KoB posted:

Why is Archer so good? Tohsaka seemed glad he got archer/Gil too. But then I thought Saber was the "strongest" class?

I guess that neither show has had an archer be Archer either.

If I remember right Tohsaka wasn't really glad at all gil was an archer. As far as the archer class it's a pretty normal class. It's one of the 4 knight classes so they are usually good at the combat but they need to stay at range. I think one of the extra material for zero said that the 4 knight classes had some rock scisor paper logic to them but in reality it seems it never works because all the heroes pull out some bullshit.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

The Nasuverse basically runs on there being a stringest series of rules that everyone important can break with impunity.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Nate RFB posted:

There was a scene in Zero where Zouken made Kariya add some sort of incantation to his summoning to ensure that he got a Berserker. So they have some control over it, provided of course that the classes are available in the first place.

I think that only applies to the Berserker class.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if someone added that line after a Berserker had already been summoned. I guess they'd just summon a non-Berserker Servant?

GhostStalker
Mar 26, 2010

Guys, find a woman who looks at you the way GhostStalker looks at every bald, obese, single 58 year old accountant from Tulsa who managed to win $4,000 by not wagering on a Final Jeopardy triple stumper.

Iretep posted:

If I remember right Tohsaka wasn't really glad at all gil was an archer. As far as the archer class it's a pretty normal class. It's one of the 4 knight classes so they are usually good at the combat but they need to stay at range. I think one of the extra material for zero said that the 4 knight classes had some rock scisor paper logic to them but in reality it seems it never works because all the heroes pull out some bullshit.

Aren't there only 3 knight classes? Saber, Knight of the Sword; Archer, Knight of the Bow; and Lancer, Knight of the Lance. Rider is described as Mounted Warrior, not a knight.

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


I'm not a huge fan of stuff like "A+ class magic", "I can recover 6 mana points a day!", "Gilgamesh is using his class ability" etc, it just feels awkward outside of a video game. I can overlook it but I'd still prefer if magic were more mystical and strange. I liked the idea of 'sorcery' vs. regular magic.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Kubla Khan posted:

I'm not a huge fan of stuff like "A+ class magic", "I can recover 6 mana points a day!", "Gilgamesh is using his class ability" etc, it just feels awkward outside of a video game. I can overlook it but I'd still prefer if magic were more mystical and strange. I liked the idea of 'sorcery' vs. regular magic.

That's kind of the point though? Magecraft is basically a science at this point so effects can be classified and categorized. Magic, on the other hand, is basically godlike power that fits the bill of of what you're looking for.

Kubla Khan
Jun 20, 2014


Eej posted:

That's kind of the point though? Magecraft is basically a science at this point so effects can be classified and categorized. Magic, on the other hand, is basically godlike power that fits the bill of of what you're looking for.

I can bear with the idea of magic being used for mundane stuff like repairing broken furniture, scrying et cetera. "This took me a bit of effort so I could abstract it as... 2 points?" is borderline acceptable.

The idea of a Servant (a being with godlike power) stating she has 1000 mana points left and she uses 6 per day, or it being noted as "he can stick around because of his class ability!" doesn't sit well with me, though. It could have been handled better, I think.

Kubla Khan fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Oct 16, 2014

Zasze
Apr 29, 2009


Kubla Khan posted:

I'm not a huge fan of stuff like "A+ class magic", "I can recover 6 mana points a day!", "Gilgamesh is using his class ability" etc, it just feels awkward outside of a video game. I can overlook it but I'd still prefer if magic were more mystical and strange. I liked the idea of 'sorcery' vs. regular magic.

Im pretty sure the in universe reason for it being like video games was that shirou is a huge nerd, Doesnt rin see the stats as colors or something close to that?

so the level of abstraction is just how you would best understand (as the mage) the magical servants space magic.

Zasze fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Oct 16, 2014

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


I don't know if I should tell you to watch Hunter X Hunter because there's a character who fights by overloading someone's "mana" with compounding interest and he mentally estimates their power level to determine how long he has to drag a fight out for.

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Zasze posted:

Im pretty sure the in universe reason for the classes was that shirou is a huge nerd, Doesnt rin see the stats as colors or something close to that?

that explanation was always a little weird because does shirou even have a computer? he's not really the type to see it as basically a jrpg/d&d status page

if anything it should be swords

like lancer's luck is one sword, while his agility is 5 swords

point of return
Aug 13, 2011

by exmarx


Obviously, it's D&D status pages not because it'd be easier for Shirou to understand, but because it'd be easier for the average Fate/stay night reader to understand--it says it's designed around the person using it, who isn't necessarily actually Shirou.

(If Shirou actually mentions the ranks, I'll shut up.)

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I can imagine Taiga lending Shirou her jrpgs and games console.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

When Shriou is told about his classification powers as a master this graphic



pops up. Its likely that most of the RPGish descriptions from the Status Screen are elements added in for the player, while Shirou views his 'status screen' in a simpler old-parchment style.

HellCopter
Feb 9, 2012


College Slice

You see, the player gets the dumb RPG Status Screen because that's what you, the player, would see. Because you play video games.

Stevefin
Sep 30, 2013



HellCopter posted:

You see, the player gets the dumb RPG Status Screen because that's what you, the player, would see. Because you play video games.

I think this is the real reason, as it does say somewhere everyone sees the 'stats' differently, the A.B,C,EX, Ect graph is the most common cause it can be understood easily by a larger audience, and by other masters, As in Zero Kirei translates to Tokiomi the stats of the other servants in this manner

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this


Kubla Khan posted:

I'm not a huge fan of stuff like "A+ class magic", "I can recover 6 mana points a day!", "Gilgamesh is using his class ability" etc, it just feels awkward outside of a video game. I can overlook it but I'd still prefer if magic were more mystical and strange. I liked the idea of 'sorcery' vs. regular magic.

Well supposedly FSN started as some tabletop campaign Nasu homebrewed.

And he really loves his RPG terms.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:


Illya sees it with animal representation. Mouse, cat, tiger, bear, etc.

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.


Finally finished up Heaven's Feel. Goddamn that normal ending is depressing as poo poo, but at least it isn't just wish fulfillment generically-happy poo poo.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Are you calling HF True wish fulfillment in a game where UBW Good exists?

Actually you best not be knocking HF True, it's quite literally the culmination of the entire VN.

BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Oct 17, 2014

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Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.


BlitzBlast posted:

Are you calling HF True wish fulfillment in a game where UBW Good exists?

I mean, he's stuck with Sakura in HF so I mean, no its not going to be ideal. But still.

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