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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Beef Waifu posted:

Kiritsugu really should've left like a note or something saying "Don't listen to Kotomine, he's full of poo poo." considering the dude lives down the street from him.

Yeah... watching this again, it occurs to me that things would be very different if Shirou just confirmed everything with Saber right now.

Saber: "Hmm, that's not quite how I remember it..."

Rin: "Well, that's what Kotomine has always said, and I think he'll know the rules a bit better than..."

Saber: "You mean, Kotomine Kirei, the guy who was Kiritsugu's greatest enemy during the last war, and the guy who murdered Tohsaka Tokiomi and stole his Servant?"

Rin&Shirou: "What"

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Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



remind me - how much of how the fourth grail war played out was established in F/SN versus F/Z?

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

Fangz posted:

Yeah... watching this again, it occurs to me that things would be very different if Shirou just confirmed everything with Saber right now.

Saber: "Hmm, that's not quite how I remember it..."

Rin: "Well, that's what Kotomine has always said, and I think he'll know the rules a bit better than..."

Saber: "You mean, Kotomine Kirei, the guy who was Kiritsugu's greatest enemy during the last war, and the guy who murdered Tohsaka Tokiomi and stole his Servant?"

Rin&Shirou: "What"

Unfortunately Fate/Zero was written after FS/N so stupidly she doesn't know all those details.

Which makes me wonder why they didn't just retroactively add in those details.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Cake Attack posted:

remind me - how much of how the fourth grail war played out was established in F/SN versus F/Z?

Basically just how it ended, iirc. I think Saber gives Shirou the account she can towards the end of Fate, and Kotomine fills in a bit more with his posturing after you know he's the villain. Ilya tells you a little bit more in HF.

I haven't watched today's episode, but did they have Saber enter the church with Shirou for some reason? She stayed outside in the VN, probably so she could not meet Kotomine early. Also no one but her has any idea yet that she's the same Saber that fought in the 4th war.

Blhue fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Oct 18, 2014

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Blhue posted:

Basically just how it ended, iirc. I think Saber gives Shirou the account she can towards the end of Fate, and Kotomine fills in a bit more with his posturing after you know he's the villain. Ilya tells you a little bit more in HF.

I haven't watched today's episode, but did they have Saber enter the church with Shirou for some reason? She stayed outside in the VN, probably so she could not meet Kotomine early. Also no one but her has any idea yet that she's the same Saber that fought in the 4th war.

She stayed outside, but she also told the two of them that she was summoned into this era before. And that she has a past history with Kirei.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

One of the only concrete details we learn of the 4th war in FSN is that Kiritsugu only talked to Saber three times, which of course made it into Zero.

If I remember Fate correctly, Saber knew that Kotomine was a former Master but lacked details such as his murder of Tokiomi or which Servant(s) he had during the 4th war. I think she knew that he and Kiritsugu had a beef but nothing specific (some comment about him be Kiritsugu's greatest enemy). Of course from her perspective he's effectively the same as Waver; a former Master who is not involved with the current war. Oops.

Didn't Kiritsugu believe he had killed Kotomine anyway? It's kind of silly that he lived so close to him for several years without noticing though.

Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Oct 18, 2014

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Cake Attack posted:

remind me - how much of how the fourth grail war played out was established in F/SN versus F/Z?

Very little:
Kiritsugu, Kotomine and Rin's father(we don't even get his name in F/SN) were Masters.
Saber didn't get along with Kiritsugu - he only spoke to her three times.
Kirei killed Tokiomi(him using the Azoth dagger to do it was also added by Urobutcher).
At one point, Saber used Excalibur on the river and Kiritsugu used the now-wrecked boat to absorb part of the blast.
Kirei accidentaly unleashed the fire in the area that is now Shinto's park when he wished for a distraction.
Kiritsugu shot Kirei through the heart and ordered Saber to destroy the Grail.

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013



Actually how much Kirei is there on the UBW path?

I mainly remember this talk, then at one point he gets killed by Caster or something like that, the Gilgamesh goes rogue and kills everybody.


ˇˇRight, now I remember. I thought Caster stole Lancer too, but he just simply had it with Kirei's poo poo.

Bholder fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Oct 18, 2014

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Kotomine in UBW is killed by Lancer.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Kotomine spent a couple years after Fate/Zero traveling the world, growing his hair out, slaughtering heretics in the name of the Chruch, and capturing the heart of a shy Irish Sealing Enforcer. By the time he came back to permanently settle in Fuyuki and prepare for the next Holy Grail War Kiritsugu was about to die/already dead and the only person who knew anything about his actions during the 4th war would be Zouken.

He also managed to set up a orphan-soul-siphon for Gil and ruin Rin's financial inheritance; he was a busy man.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


It's rather impressive just how little Kotomine said in that episode was actually true.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Fangz posted:

She stayed outside, but she also told the two of them that she was summoned into this era before. And that she has a past history with Kirei.

Yeah, unless I'm misremembering (I could certainly be, its been over a year since the last time I read the VN), that normally doesn't happen this early.

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



I thought Saber had no knowledge of what Kotomine was doing during the fourth war other than that he was a master and Kiritsugu's enemy. If I recall she said as much in the VN. Talking about F/Z, from her vantage point he was merely Assassin's master and lost his servant early.

Regarding today's episode, I also don't recall Saber casually mentioning how she had been summoned before right from the start, but then my memory is vague. I think that her having been summoned before was treated as a plot twist in the Fate route.

HellCopter
Feb 9, 2012


College Slice

In the VN, Saber just says that it would be unfair for a servant to enter the church. Saber seems pretty surprised herself when she first sees Kotomine.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Super Jay Mann posted:

I thought Saber had no knowledge of what Kotomine was doing during the fourth war other than that he was a master and Kiritsugu's enemy. If I recall she said as much in the VN. Talking about F/Z, from her vantage point he was merely Assassin's master and lost his servant early.

Regarding today's episode, I also don't recall Saber casually mentioning how she had been summoned before right from the start, but then my memory is vague. I think that her having been summoned before was treated as a plot twist in the Fate route.

Nope. It's revealed the night of the third day in all the routes. The twist revealed in Fate was that her Master was Kiritsugu

GhostStalker
Mar 26, 2010

Guys, find a woman who looks at you the way GhostStalker looks at every bald, obese, single 58 year old accountant from Tulsa who managed to win $4,000 by not wagering on a Final Jeopardy triple stumper.

Yeah, I was trying to remember just how much Kirei was bullshitting to Shirou in the church there.

Still, I guess there's no real time for Rin/Shirou and Saber to exchange information about what Kirei told them and what she knows about the 4th War before Ilya and Berserker jump them in the cemetery.

Really looking forward to that fight, btw. Next week can't come fast enough.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Bholder posted:

Actually how much Kirei is there on the UBW path?

I mainly remember this talk, then at one point he gets killed by Caster or something like that, the Gilgamesh goes rogue and kills everybody.


ˇˇRight, now I remember. I thought Caster stole Lancer too, but he just simply had it with Kirei's poo poo.

If I remember it right... (also MASSIVE spoilers for UBW obviously}:

He gets the usual introduction in the church.

After Rider is killed, Shinji goes to Kotomine and whines about how its unfair and that he lost only because he got such a lovely Servant. Kotomine "gives" him command over Gilgamesh, basically just because he considers it hilarious. Gilgamesh doesn't really need a Master at this point, so he plays along while doing his own thing.

Caster takes over the church and everyone thinks Kotomine is dead.

During the Archer/Shirou duel, Kotomine suddenly appears in front of captured Rin, together with Shinji and Lancer and reveals that he was Lancers Master all along and pretty much just does stereotypical evil gloating while stating that he will let Shinji rape her. Lancer disagrees, so Kotomine uses his Command Seal and orders him to kill himself. Unlike Diarmuid, Cú Chulainn proves to not be a little bitch and gets up again, kills Kotomine, scares the crap out of Shinji, frees Rin and turns the whole Einzbern mansion into his funeral pyre. :black101:

...and thats it. He is basically non-entity in UBW route.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS

Probably my favourite thing about UBW and HF is that we see the two servants who get punked early on in Fate (Lancer and Rider) get to be totally awesome on screen.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

The best fakeout in the story is when Saber cuts Rider in half during early Heaven's Feel and it looks like she was destined to be an unknown jobber in every route.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Eej posted:

Probably my favourite thing about UBW and HF is that we see the two servants who get punked early on in Fate (Lancer and Rider) get to be totally awesome on screen.

Eh, Lancer lasts about as long in Fate as in UBW, and does an awesome thing, but it sadly happens offscreen.

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013



Lt. Lizard posted:

...and thats it. He is basically non-entity in UBW route.

That is what I was thinking, but he appears more than twice, that's good enough.

Still don't know why we see Rider in the OP when the only thing we'll see is her dead body.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Bholder posted:

That is what I was thinking, but he appears more than twice, that's good enough.

Still don't know why we see Rider in the OP when the only thing we'll see is her dead body.

Because she SEEMS to be important at the beginning.
We see the boundary field, we fight against her, then we talk with Shinji, some days after this the Boundary Field is activated and... suddenly dead Rider.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

I laughed at how on the nose it was when they talked about Servants going off to do their own thing without a Master while showing Archer sitting up on top of the church.

Stevefin
Sep 30, 2013



Lt. Lizard posted:

If I remember it right... (also MASSIVE spoilers for UBW obviously}:

He gets the usual introduction in the church.

After Rider is killed, Shinji goes to Kotomine and whines about how its unfair and that he lost only because he got such a lovely Servant. Kotomine "gives" him command over Gilgamesh, basically just because he considers it hilarious. Gilgamesh doesn't really need a Master at this point, so he plays along while doing his own thing.

Caster takes over the church and everyone thinks Kotomine is dead.

During the Archer/Shirou duel, Kotomine suddenly appears in front of captured Rin, together with Shinji and Lancer and reveals that he was Lancers Master all along and pretty much just does stereotypical evil gloating while stating that he will let Shinji rape her. Lancer disagrees, so Kotomine uses his Command Seal and orders him to kill himself. Unlike Diarmuid, Cú Chulainn proves to not be a little bitch and gets up again, kills Kotomine, scares the crap out of Shinji, frees Rin and turns the whole Einzbern mansion into his funeral pyre. :black101:

...and thats it. He is basically non-entity in UBW route.

Well least from shirous prospective, I'm hoping we do see so much more, like the fight that was supposed to have happened in his church when caster decided she liked the land the church sat on better

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



I think Saber knew Kotomine was killed? At least, I remember her being really shocked in Fate when he shows up (I'm not sure how Shirou learnt that he was meant to have died otherwise). If so it's a sortof weak plotline because it relies on neither Rin nor Shirou ever mentioning his name to her.

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


Well, Saber disappeared in zero after destroying the Grail for seemingly no reason, so she wouldn't have much knowledge about anything that came after (finding out the Grail is evil and Kitisugu killing Kotomine). The only specific thing Saber really knows about him is that she really, really doesn't like him, which plays out most prominently in that one Bad End in Fate where Kotomine comes to Shirou's house.

anglachel
May 28, 2012


Think back about what Saber was ever really told about what was going on, and you'll realize that Saber was pretty much told jack and poo poo about the greater parts of the War. The whole point was that Iri and Saber would do the "traditional" Master/Servant thing while he went out and won the actual war. Kiritsugu never once talked to Saber about Kotomine, and considered her unreliable at best and an embodiment of all she hated at worst. Unless Iri talked about Kotomine to Saber (which she never seemed to do) then Saber would know jack and poo poo. All Saber knows is that Kiritsugu was a huge rear end in a top hat to her, spit on her ideals to her face, ruined her honor duel with Lancer, didn't care about Caster going on child murder sprees, and forced her to destroy the one thing she wanted most at the last minute when it was just her, him, and Gilgamesh left.

As far as why Saber disseappered I imagine it had something to do with her weird status as a Counter Guardian.

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


anglachel posted:

As far as why Saber disseappered I imagine it had something to do with her weird status as a Counter Guardian.

Oh, I was just saying that Saber didn't understand why Kiritsugu wanted her to destroy the Grail, and never really found out why until close to the end of Fate, or not at all in UBW and Heaven's Feel. From my understanding, the Holy Grail needs to be in the world for the Servants to exist, which is why she disappeared.

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.


Lt. Lizard posted:

If I remember it right... (also MASSIVE spoilers for UBW obviously}:

He gets the usual introduction in the church.

After Rider is killed, Shinji goes to Kotomine and whines about how its unfair and that he lost only because he got such a lovely Servant. Kotomine "gives" him command over Gilgamesh, basically just because he considers it hilarious. Gilgamesh doesn't really need a Master at this point, so he plays along while doing his own thing.

Caster takes over the church and everyone thinks Kotomine is dead.

During the Archer/Shirou duel, Kotomine suddenly appears in front of captured Rin, together with Shinji and Lancer and reveals that he was Lancers Master all along and pretty much just does stereotypical evil gloating while stating that he will let Shinji rape her. Lancer disagrees, so Kotomine uses his Command Seal and orders him to kill himself. Unlike Diarmuid, Cú Chulainn proves to not be a little bitch and gets up again, kills Kotomine, scares the crap out of Shinji, frees Rin and turns the whole Einzbern mansion into his funeral pyre. :black101:

...and thats it. He is basically non-entity in UBW route.

Kotomine doesn't directly do a lot in any route beyond the forest part of Heaven's Feel.

FormerPoster
Aug 5, 2004



Hair Elf

Sylphid posted:

From my understanding, the Holy Grail needs to be in the world for the Servants to exist, which is why she disappeared.
This is something I've never really understood. Saber, Rider and Gilagemsh all have their arcs that end with them staying around after the war is over. I'm pretty sure I get the situation with Gilgamesh but I'm unclear on why Saber and Rider are able to stick around, other than 'their masters are soooooo great'.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Any Servant can stick around provided their Master can provide them mana, it's just that the cost is a lot higher because the grail isn't helping out anymore. Rin and especially Sakura have enormous reserves which apparently is enough. I think Saber exited stage left in Zero because Kiritsugu just didn't have enough juice (maybe not having any command seals hurt him too?? Though I don't think Sakura had any after HF either) comparatively. Presumably excess Servants being left behind after a Grail War is uncommon considering all them basically failed.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Naerasa posted:

This is something I've never really understood. Saber, Rider and Gilagemsh all have their arcs that end with them staying around after the war is over. I'm pretty sure I get the situation with Gilgamesh but I'm unclear on why Saber and Rider are able to stick around, other than 'their masters are soooooo great'.

For Rider, she's able to stick around in the True Ending for Heaven's Feel because Sakura has a fuckton of mana.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Kiritsugu probably just cut Saber off as soon as her role was fulfilled because he hated her.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

Naerasa posted:

This is something I've never really understood. Saber, Rider and Gilagemsh all have their arcs that end with them staying around after the war is over. I'm pretty sure I get the situation with Gilgamesh but I'm unclear on why Saber and Rider are able to stick around, other than 'their masters are soooooo great'.

Gilgamesh (Fate route spoilers) was essentially eating people to stay in the world as was found out near the end of the Fate route.

Saber (UBW route spoilers) Yeah Rin just has a poo poo ton of mana or something apparently

Rider (Heavens Feel route spoilers) Sakura is a loving holy grail herself so of course she'd have a near inexhaustible mana supply to keep Rider around

Myurton fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Oct 20, 2014

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

I think Gil says at some point that he doesn't actually need Kotomine's soul farm thanks to getting doused with grail curse juice, but he eats them anyway just because that's the way he rolls.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Myurton posted:

Gilgamesh (Fate route spoilers) was essentially eating people to stay in the world as was found out near the end of the Fate route.

Saber (UBW route spoilers) Yeah Rin just has a poo poo ton of mana or something apparently

Rider (Heavens Feel route spoilers) Sakura is a loving holy grail herself so of course she'd have a near inexhaustible mana supply to keep Rider around

Gil actually remained in the world because the Grail gave him a physical body. I think the prana battery was just for powering his Noble Phantasms.

Saber stuck around in UBW Good by getting mana from both Rin and Shirou.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

I finally got around to watching the last two movies of Kara no Kyoukai, Mirai Fukuin and Mirai Fukuin Extra Chorus

I thought that it was rather appropriate that Ryougi Shiki in the future becomes a freaking mafia boss, that made my evening.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010


Long ass-screeds.

Dismissive, tedious, bad faith poster.

Embodiment of the Dunning - Kruger effect.

No joke, desperate to be made a mod of D&D.


Put this toxic loser on ignore.


College Slice

That's gotta be one of the best possible timelines, Rin and Shirou having Saber around while they kick the asses of rogue mages gotta be pretty easy with a Servant.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Myurton posted:

Saber (UBW route spoilers) Yeah Rin just has a poo poo ton of mana or something apparently
She's supposed to be one of the top 100 Association mages of all time and her family's specialty is energy transfer, if anyone could wrangle up a ton of mana it's going to be her.

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BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Raenir Salazar posted:

That's gotta be one of the best possible timelines, Rin and Shirou having Saber around while they kick the asses of rogue mages gotta be pretty easy with a Servant.

Meanwhile Sakura loses both of the pillars of her life and spends the rest of her (arguably brief) life suffering.

You're such a great sister Rin. :thumbsup:

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