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Ixtlilton
Mar 10, 2012

How to Draw
by Rube Goldberg



EccoRaven posted:

What's happening is players, aware the setup is unorthodox, rather than rallying together and trying their hardest, are preemptively giving up. "We can't make connections," they're telling themselves, "so what's the point?"

This is because players are terrible but unfortunately it only takes a few to spoil it for the rest of us.
Posts like this, e.g.:

That's not what that post meant Ecco, I was saying that my lack of solid opinions at the end of D1 didn't mean anything for my alignment because it's not like they can say "Oh, he's just waiting to see where can put a vote without committing" because in a game where scum don't know each other that kind of reasoning doesn't make sense.

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fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

Also, rude.

EccoRaven posted:

This is because players are terrible but unfortunately it only takes a few to spoil it for the rest of us.

The cognitive dissonance that Ecco can sustain is quite magnificent.

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


Me posted:

The easiest way to deal with a compelling argument as scum is just to ignore it.

EccoRaven posted:

True but I really doubt it's compelling, if it was anything like the posts leading up to it.

Ecco feels the need to discredit a post that he says he ~d~i~d~ ~n~o~t~ ~r~e~a~d~ ~.~

How is that possibly town?

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

What's happening is players, aware the setup is unorthodox, rather than rallying together and trying their hardest, are preemptively giving up. "We can't make connections," they're telling themselves, "so what's the point?"

Actually, I made a case on Meinberg. Let's discuss it.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

The cognitive dissonance that Ecco can sustain is quite magnificent.

Rude.

Ixtlilton posted:

That's not what that post meant Ecco, I was saying that my lack of solid opinions at the end of D1 didn't mean anything for my alignment because it's not like they can say "Oh, he's just waiting to see where can put a vote without committing" because in a game where scum don't know each other that kind of reasoning doesn't make sense.

No, the lack of solid opinions about anything is always a problem. Just because it doesn't mean you're scummy doesn't mean it's not a problem.

The Science of Suck posted:

people won't play how i want them to


Rude.

Somberbrero posted:

You're ignoring my posts because you don't care what I have to say or you're scum. I guess the distinction doesn't really matter.

Not to you but it does to everyone else

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

The Science of Suck posted:

people won't play how i want them to


Beautiful, btw.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

Actually, I made a case on Meinberg. Let's discuss it.

It wasn't a great case.

His use of the vig was dumb, not scummy-necessarily. It was early in Day 1 and people almost always use their vig-kills earlier rather than later; if we strung up every townie who used a vig stupidly, well, there'd be a lot of dead townies. Actually that sounds like a good idea.

Your second point is better, but many players have been saying "I'll reread and post something later" and most haven't followed through, Meinberg isn't really special in that regard. Sure, it's not-townie, but I'm suspecting the problem is systemic, not with individual players' alignments.

Other than that there isn't much else to discuss? Your case was pretty short.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

Beautiful, btw.

"How I want them to" is "posting and putting in effort and trying to find scum despite the constraints."

But gently caress me right??

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Somberbrero posted:

Ecco feels the need to discredit a post that he says he ~d~i~d~ ~n~o~t~ ~r~e~a~d~ ~.~

How is that possibly town?

I'm telling you if it was a good case someone would have responded to it or voted with it or something. Or, for that matter, you'd have tried to condense it into something readable and short and vote-able (which I would have read and responded to).

It probably wasn't a good case, then!

You can try again, it's not the end of the world.

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


fiery_valkyrie posted:

##vote Meinberg

Two reasons.

First, his use of the vig was scummy. He didn't attempt to discern player alignment before using it, he just saw a player he could shoot with no blowback and did it.

Second, this post just comes across as awkward and an attempt to say something without actually getting involved in the game.
edited in: "A Sunday deadline? Why I never!

Things have been pretty quiet, so I don't have any new thoughts, but I'll think real hard, and try to come up with something."


I don't really see the vig use as scummy. Firing from the hip seems townie, since most people shut their brain off the moment they see they have a kill as town. If I were a scum vig I would hold onto that for a long time.

I agree that sort of noncontent is scummy but I think Punt's casing on bowmore is a little more substantive regarding that particular behavior.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

"How I want them to" is "posting and putting in effort and trying to find scum despite the constraints."

But gently caress me right??

I have been posting and putting in effort and trying to find scum despite the constraints and you have been deliberately insulting and abrasive, so since your attitude is clearly "gently caress all of you", then yes please go gently caress yourself right back.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

##vote Ecco

See you Day 3.

Meinberg
Oct 9, 2011


Hey guys, how's it going? I miss anything important the last couple days?

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

It wasn't a great case.

His use of the vig was dumb, not scummy-necessarily.

Why is it your opinion that it was dumb not scum? What are you basing this on?

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

Meinberg posted:

Hey guys, how's it going? I miss anything important the last couple days?

I called you scum and Ecco continued to make friends.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

Why is it your opinion that it was dumb not scum? What are you basing this on?

Because of the sentence you cropped out:

Town often use their vig-kills stupidly. Using a vig, even on a target like Met who nobody would miss, isn't inherently scummy.

Meinberg
Oct 9, 2011


fiery_valkyrie posted:

I called you scum and Ecco continued to make friends.

But I said "hey guys, I'm town" at the beginning of the game. That's my meta cue for being town.

More seriously, my internet has been down the last couple days, I'll try to be more active going forward. But for the moment, it's kinda hard for me to process all the huge posts that seems to be largely theory that are going on in here. (I blame Ecco)

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Meinberg posted:

(I blame Ecco)

Fair enough! Everyone else is.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

Because of the sentence you cropped out:

Town often use their vig-kills stupidly. Using a vig, even on a target like Met who nobody would miss, isn't inherently scummy.

Why are you jumping to the immediate conclusion that it was a town-vig?

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


EccoRaven posted:

I'm telling you if it was a good case someone would have responded to it or voted with it or something. Or, for that matter, you'd have tried to condense it into something readable and short and vote-able (which I would have read and responded to).

It probably wasn't a good case, then!

You can try again, it's not the end of the world.

Whether or not someone takes action on my points against you actually doesn't speak to their quality at all. If you were "posting and putting in effort and trying to find scum despite the constraints" you probably would have seen that I prioritized one paragraph over the rest of the response.

I've been trying to get you to respond to me for nearly two days and I still do not have a direct answer. You're scum.

Ecco Raven posted:

When you started saying "Ecco is scum!", I had to back off you a bit. I have a gut feeling about you, but I can't substantiate it, and if I still ran with it, it could (and you would) easily dismiss it as OMGUSm, or if we got embroiled into it people would dismiss us both as "townie slapfighting." This is because of mafia politics; you can't go after someone who is going after you unless you have some meat to the case. It's stupid but, wishes and horses and all.

Me posted:

I KNOW THIS IS ALL VERY BORING EVERYONE BUT AT LEAST READ THIS PART

You're still not talking about whether or not I am scum right now. You practically refuse to say, and that is scummy. You have so much content you could analyze on this page alone, but it's still not enough to substantiate your gut? Why not actually play mafia, Ecco Raven? I wasn't sure you were scum, I kept working at it. Your increasingly evasive responses, general disinterest in finding scum, manufactured distractions, and status as a challenger have convinced me that you are scum. See how that works?

It's so bizarre that you say you were afraid to argue with me because of how it would appear. I don't play the game that way as town. Maybe you do, but I find it unlikely.

THANKS FOR READING ^ THIS MUCH APPRECIATED

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

Why are you jumping to the immediate conclusion that it was a town-vig?

I'm not.

Please point out where I have.

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


Half of my effort this game has been devoted towards trying really loving hard to be polite.

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012



The Science of Suck posted:

people won't play how i want them to

Dugong
Mar 18, 2013

I don't know what to do,
I'm going to lose my mind



Somberbrero posted:

If it's a good case, why aren't you voting with it?

That's me being rubbish. I forget to actually make the vote until close to deadline and have done it often in SA games. D1 I didn't see a majority being reached used the vote to express who I thought was scummy.

##vote HiipFire

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

I'm not.

Please point out where I have.

Right here. Please show where you considered, and why you ruled out, that this was a scum vig.

EccoRaven posted:

Because of the sentence you cropped out:

Town often use their vig-kills stupidly. Using a vig, even on a target like Met who nobody would miss, isn't inherently scummy.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

Somberbrero posted:

Half of my effort this game has been devoted towards trying really loving hard to be polite.

You're doing a better job than me.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Somberbrero posted:

I've been trying to get you to respond to me for nearly two days and I still do not have a direct answer. You're scum.
Ok, for you Somber, because I like what you did in Arrentia, I will give you the straightest of straight answers, sentence by sentence, to the paragraph you highlighted.

quote:

You're still not talking about whether or not I am scum right now.
This is because I don't know whether or not you are scum right now, and though I have a bad gut feeling, it's nothing more than a gut feeling. I think you're scummy, but I can't verbalize exactly why.

This sentiment was revealed in the post where I said exactly that.

quote:

You practically refuse to say, and that is scummy.

I don't know whether or not you are scum right now, and though I have a bad gut feeling, it's nothing more than a gut feeling. I think you're scummy, but I can't verbalize exactly why.

If I had a vig kill and if I could use it multiple times, but it would only work on players on whom I had gut feelings but who I couldn't case, I would use it on you.

quote:

You have so much content you could analyze on this page alone, but it's still not enough to substantiate your gut?
Not really. "I think Ecco is scum!" isn't a go-to for me to think you're scum, because, yeah, I come off as a big jerk, and that really pisses people off and they want to vote for me because of that. It doesn't matter that your points were misconstructions or outright untrue, because of that emotional component, I am more inclined to chalk it up to frustration with me than reflective of your scummy alignment.

quote:

Why not actually play mafia, Ecco Raven?
I really don't like mafia tbh. I regret signing up for this game and I wish I hadn't, and I have a feeling lots of players would agree!

quote:

I wasn't sure you were scum, I kept working at it.
Did you really, though? Because your points didn't seem to get any better.

quote:

Your increasingly evasive responses, general disinterest in finding scum, manufactured distractions, and status as a challenger have convinced me that you are scum.
I don't think my responses are particularly evasive (save for the one where I said I didn't read your big long post, that is super evasive I admit!). I don't think I have a disinterest in finding scum; my casing on Ernie yesterday and my confidence that he was the right vote should speak to that. I don't believe I manufactured any distractions; the whole thing about JJ and the challengers, again, wasn't my fault.

quote:

It's so bizarre that you say you were afraid to argue with me because of how it would appear.
Not really. A lot of this game isn't really about making reasoned arguments and taking things sensibly. There is a baseline I want (slash a town needs in order to function), but everything beyond that is a complicated mixture of reason, emotions, intuition, and (always) laziness. As scum I love getting into back-and-forth fights with a townie who thinks I'm scum, because I know that no matter what we say, disinterested townies will say "eh looks like two townies slapfighting!" and ignore me, giving me the carte blanche to kill that townie at night.

I know how the game is played. Which is why I hate playing it.

quote:

I don't play the game that way as town.
You should. I think everyone should incorporate a little bit of that kind of pragmatism and awareness into their play; it'll save us all a lot of time and headaches.

quote:

Maybe you do, but I find it unlikely.
I do always and forever regardless of alignment.



Somberbrero I hope this has helped give you a better glimpse not only into my psyche as a mafia player but as to my alignment in this game. I don't know why you felt like I hadn't given you "direct responses" before but this I feel was pretty direct. If you disagree, please tell me why and where and I'll try to address it!

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

Right here. Please show where you considered, and why you ruled out, that this was a scum vig.

I said "Using a vig, even on a target like Met who nobody would miss, isn't inherently scummy."

The key word there is "inherently."

It means that using a vig on a target like Met who nobody would miss could be scummy, and it could be townie. It doesn't mean it has to be one or the other.

Does this answer your question?

votefinder
Jul 6, 2010

scoop scoop


Votecount for Day 2

Mad Rancher (2): merk, EccoRaven
EccoRaven (2): merk, merk, Somberbrero, Asiina
Monathin (2): The Science of Suck, Peta
HiipFire (1): Dugong
bowmore (1): Puntification
Meinberg (1): fiery_valkyrie

Not Voting (10): AtrociousToaster, bowmore, EXAKT Science, HiipFire, Ixtlilton, Mad Rancher, Meinberg, Monathin, Opopanax, Tremendous Taste

With 19 alive, it's 10 votes to lynch. The current deadline is November 21st, 2014 at 10 p.m. EST -- that's in about 2 days, 3 hours.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

I said "Using a vig, even on a target like Met who nobody would miss, isn't inherently scummy."

The key word there is "inherently."

It means that using a vig on a target like Met who nobody would miss could be scummy, and it could be townie. It doesn't mean it has to be one or the other.

Does this answer your question?

It specifically doesn't answer my question. If it could be scummy or it could be townie, why have you decided in this instance that it is townie?

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

It specifically doesn't answer my question. If it could be scummy or it could be townie, why have you decided in this instance that it is townie?
I haven't.

I am not and have never said "I think Meinberg is townie." I said your case wasn't great because, among other reasons, I disagree with your point that the vig kill was scummy. It was neither scummy nor townie, to me. It was irresponsible and stupid but almost everyone forever have used vig-kills supidly and irresponsibly regardless of alignment.

I don't know how I can make this more clear.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

##vote ecco

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Sigh.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


The continuum between scumminess and townieness is a gradient with a third axis, "silliness."

Players, regardless of alignment, can act in ways that are not beneficial to their team.

Using a vig-kill wildly is wrong. It's bad. People shouldn't do it.

But almost everyone forever regardless of alignment does.

Fiery you think that Meinberg's use of the vig was scummy since it was on a player we all agreed nobody would miss.

I disagree, because I could see town Meinberg OR scum Meinberg doing the same.

That doesn't mean I actually think Meinberg is town, or that Meinberg's use of the vig was townie. It just means that I don't see, right now as it's been presented and as I've read it, whether that says anything about his alignment either way.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

fiery_valkyrie posted:

Who do you think is scum then?

Asiina, you never answered this.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

Asiina, you never answered this.

She voted for me, so...

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

She voted for me, so...

And didn't explain it. I want to see explanations as well as votes (and funnily enough I thought you did too).

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

And didn't explain it. I want to see explanations as well as votes (and funnily enough I thought you did too).

I do, and I am glad you do too, I'm just saying, from the perspective of someone who thinks I'm scum, why ask for reasons? Gift horses and all that.

ninja: that question is rhetorical

Somberbrero
Feb 14, 2009

The Pit Awaits


That response from Ecco makes me want to unvote him. I'm at the gym right now but I'll think on the game and come at it tomorrow.

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EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Somberbrero posted:

That response from Ecco makes me want to unvote him. I'm at the gym right now but I'll think on the game and come at it tomorrow.
Cool thanks glad to hear it.

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