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fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

I do, and I am glad you do too, I'm just saying, from the perspective of someone who thinks I'm scum, why ask for reasons? Gift horses and all that.

ninja: that question is rhetorical

I'm answering it anyway.

a) because the scum don't know each other and might vote for each other

b) because I am suspicious of Asiina. She dismissed my case without commiting herself to an opinion on Meinberg one way or the other, she didn't talk about who she thought was scum and her vote on you looks to me like it is riding on the back of your personality issues rather than an actual belief that you are scum, which is why I want to hear her rationale for it.

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EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Okay, cool.

Do you want to talk about why you think I'm scum? I feel like you've been building to that vote for a while but it'd be nice for me and other potential voters to have your reasons in one post for easy reference.

Puntification
Nov 4, 2009

Black Orthodontromancy
The most British Magic



Fun Shoe

Short of some dramatic incriminating development/scumclaim I'm really not willing to vote ecco today.

Also I'd quite like to hear more from asiina both about her reasons for voting and the game in general.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

I never enjoy playing with you Ecco because you are a jerk, but you are normally a productive jerk who steers town in the right direction. I'm not seeing that this game.

I think the fact that you dismiss other peoples cases while hedging on your opinions is scummy.

Your "woe is me" is over the top and comes across as fake.

You lament the lack of people playing the game while actively ignoring my cases. I had to prompt you to give an opinion on my Meinberg case, you didn't comment on my points about Asiina.

I just don't see these behaviours as towny.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

I think the fact that you dismiss other peoples cases while hedging on your opinions is scummy.
I can see that, but I don't think I'm "hedging" at all. I'm just trying to be fair. I don't make a lot of strong calls in mafia games because I like being right, but also because things are rarely so easy that a strong call is ever truly justified. In the case with Meinberg, I understand why you thought his vig was scummy, but I disagreed for the reasons I listed. Unfortunately, we're at a bit of a "agree to disagree" situation, which is why I'm not really trying to get you to unvote Meinberg or change your opinion on him.

fiery_valkyrie posted:

Your "woe is me" is over the top and comes across as fake.

I mentioned it because Somber wondered why I wanted to talk with merk, and it was related to my issues with people's responses to my response to JJ's challenger post. It's how I feel, and I am genuinely regretting signing up for this game, because mafia games make me a meaner person, and I don't actually like that.

fiery_valkyrie posted:

You lament the lack of people playing the game while actively ignoring my cases. I had to prompt you to give an opinion on my Meinberg case, you didn't comment on my points about Asiina.
1) I don't think anyone can "actively ignore" anything, but, it was because of the points I talked about above - I didn't personally agree with it, but I also didn't necessarily think you were wrong for thinking it such that I wanted to go out of my way to defend Meinberg.

Again, just to reiterate, I don't think the vig kill was scummy or townie. I think it was something Meinberg would have been inclined to do regardless of alignment. The second point you had was in a similar vein - it's less a sign of him being scum or town and more a sign of him not really playing the game (heck he came in today and straight up said in more polite words "I don't think I'll be posting yet, it's too boring!"). This doesn't make him scum, but it also doesn't make him town, and it doesn't make him someone I want to defend.

I figured a post quoting your post saying "I disagree, but, I don't care enough to persuade you otherwise" would be a waste of both our times.

Most of the cases made this game so far are similar; I haven't read a case today other than Opop's->JJ that has made me say "I agree," nor have I read cases against players (other than me) which make me say "you're wrong and here's why."

I understand why you find it scummy that I don't "walk the walk" despite talking the talk, but I hope I've made it clearer for you why I didn't initially respond to your case until you prompted me.


This goes for everyone else, too; I respond to cases that give me something to say, but if you want me to talk about your case (or ask me why I am so rude as to think your great case wasn't worth my time!!), just ask me, I'll do it, and I'll try to be polite and clear as to why I didn't find it persuasive.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

I figured a post quoting your post saying "I disagree, but, I don't care enough to persuade you otherwise" would be a waste of both our times.

I'm not really sure how you expect the game to be played other than some people giving opinions and other people agreeing or disagreeing and then going from there. Everyone saying whether they agree or disagree is not a waste of time in mafia.

EccoRaven posted:

Most of the cases made this game so far are similar; I haven't read a case today other than Opop's->JJ that has made me say "I agree," nor have I read cases against players (other than me) which make me say "you're wrong and here's why."

I think it really says a lot about you that you think your role in the game is to tell people when and why they are wrong.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

I'm not really sure how you expect the game to be played other than some people giving opinions and other people agreeing or disagreeing
"oh that's very reasonable, well..."

quote:

I think it really says a lot about you that you think your role in the game is to tell people when and why they are wrong.

"Oh, ok."


I mean ignoring that I also said I comment on cases I agree with, I've been putting an effort to tone down my own hostility towards you - can you please try to do me the same?

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

"oh that's very reasonable, well..."


"Oh, ok."


I mean ignoring that I also said I comment on cases I agree with, I've been putting an effort to tone down my own hostility towards you - can you please try to do me the same?

Any hostility you read in my post came from your interpretation. I didn't write it with any in mind.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

Any hostility you read in my post came from your interpretation. I didn't write it with any in mind.

fiery_valkyrie posted:

I think it really says a lot about you
Come on.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

Pointing out a personality tell is not a hostile act.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

So Ecco, what's your opinion on Asiina?

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


When the "personality tell" is "you feel the need to tell people when they're wrong," in the context of "I hate playing with you because you're an rear end in a top hat," yeah it's hostile.

What was the point of it if not a barb at me? Again, it wasn't even an accurate summary of what I said - it was just a snipe.

I know I was (and have been always and forever) insufferable to play with, but, I'm really trying. Please try to do me the same.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

So Ecco, what's your opinion on Asiina?

I don't really have one. But you don't really have much of a case, either.

She dismissed your Meinberg case for reasons that seem eerily similar to mine. Ok. She didn't answer your question when you asked her who she thought was scum. Ok. She hasn't given reasons why she's voted for me. Ok.

In a vacuum that's alright, but in the context of the game, it's not really very scummy. Again, I agree with her about the Meinberg case. It's dumb she hasn't responded to you but it's not like she's posting left and right and is ignoring it - she clearly isn't really paying close attention to this game, as are many players.

It's silly of her to vote me and run, it's silly of her to ignore your question, and I don't particularly care about defending her. But I also don't think that makes her scummy in and of itself.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Something that I think would be an effective way to go about this game (and every game, really) is for you (and everyone, really) to make a clear explanation for why a particular thing a player said or did was scummy. That is, why is that particular thing something that scum would be substantively more inclined to do? And what about this particular thing is an example of that?

For instance, one can say that Meinberg's vig on a player nobody would miss early into Day 1 was something scum are more inclined to do because it's a way to remove a player without a) dying before getting to use it, or b) being held accountable for using it. The kill was an example of that because...

and that second part is the hard part, because, it's not something surprising for any player to do regardless of alignment, and it's especially not surprising for Meinberg. And we can think of reasons why a scum player wouldn't do it. For instance, like Somber said, scum would be inclined to save the vig for as long as possible, since an unstoppable daykill is really really powerful in scum hands. Or, in my opinion, I would use it on someone more threatening to me.

Players often post in a way that doesn't help the town advance their win condition. But that doesn't make them scum.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

EccoRaven posted:

I don't really have one. But you don't really have much of a case, either.

*sigh*

Ok I'm done. I've been trying to make cases and get a discussion going and all you can do is poo poo all over it while at the same time complaining that town have all given up.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

These were the events leading up to Meinberg vigging Met.

*a whole bunch of people saying Met should be vigged*

Asiina posted:

Except this isn't just drama. If someone is going to be a lurker or a distraction to town through their behaviour then best to get rid of them as soon as possible. I don't know if Met is scum, but I know that the game will be a higher quality without him in it.

##vote Met

EccoRaven posted:

See while I don't disagree at all in theory, I still feel like we should be trying to actually hunt scum.

Removing worthless, obnoxious, or toxic players is the job of vigilantes (and good-hearted scum), not the town.

Meinberg posted:

I also think that Met is scummy IRL if not in-game. Seriously, is it that much work to apologize when you use the wrong pronoun and correct your behavior? For real man, be a decent human being for a change.

Meinberg posted:

Well, Ecco has failed us. It's time for Meinberg to shine.

You can just call me a Social Justice... Vigilante.

##shoot Met

So I saw it as a townie act. He heard people call for Met to be vigged, and we agreed that distracting players are things that a vig should deal with, so he acted. Also I don't believe that a scum vig would ever blow his shot on D1. His posting also seems right on point with regular Meinberg. I strongly believe he's town.

What else was it you wanted me to do?

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

People who are scum: Ecco. Ecco's scumbuddies.

Real talk though, you've said it yourself f_v in that despite the :words: he's just shutting down conversation and turning it into mafia dadding and meta chat.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


fiery_valkyrie posted:

Ok I'm done. I've been trying to make cases and get a discussion going and all you can do is poo poo all over it while at the same time complaining that town have all given up.

You could, you know, try to talk with me in return - explain why I'm mistaken, and why your belief is the correct one. "No, Ecco, Meinberg's vig really was scummy because of these reasons:". You know, something like that?

Asiina posted:

Real talk though, you've said it yourself f_v in that despite the :words: he's just shutting down conversation and turning it into mafia dadding and meta chat.

I disagree.

Ixtlilton
Mar 10, 2012

How to Draw
by Rube Goldberg



Asiina is the cum (wo)man, I have foreseen. f_v is doing her town thing and so is Ecco. I can't read Somber very well since he just posts up a storm as any alignment but this seems more sincere than his scum posting. merk was right for the right reasons and scum merk would probably be less right for less right reasons maybe, merk's not a busser as far I can remember and casing properly is almost like bussing.

Peta is a guy, hi Peta. Bowmore is lazy as town but this is more like lazy scum bowmore as far as I can tell. Although he didn't insult me before voting me so that gives me pause there. I was about to read PM but then realized he's dead.

Pig, if I update the alive lists every day will you edit the OP by copy/pasting them?

In conclusion, the town are f_v, Ecco, merk, and Motley. The scum are probably Asiina, and maybe bowmore or Punti. The other people can wait.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Players still in the game:
- Asiina
- AtrociousToaster
- bowmore
- Dugong
- EccoRaven
- EXAKT Science
- fiery_valkyrie
- HiipFire
- Ixtlilton
- Mad Rancher
- Meinberg
- merk
- Monathin
- Peta
- Opopanax
- Puntification
- Somberbrero
- The Science of Suck
- Tremendous Taste

People who have posted today more than once and said something substantive:
- Asiina
- Dugong
- EccoRaven
- EXAKT Science
- fiery_valkyrie
- HiipFire
- Ixtlilton
- Mad Rancher
- Opopanax
- Peta
- Puntification
- Somberbrero
- The Science of Suck

People who have posted frequently and clearly been putting in clear effort into the game:

- Dugong
- EccoRaven
- fiery_valkyrie
- Puntification
- Somberbrero


This is a comment to the mods to make some prods and replacements. Out of 19 players, only 5 are clearly playing (whether they're doing so in a scummy, conversation-shutting-down-y way is up for debate).

Ixtlilton
Mar 10, 2012

How to Draw
by Rube Goldberg



In other news, that was the writing of someone who got a 4.5 on the writing part of the GRE, which I emailed to me today.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Oh hi Ixt.

So 6 people now. Cool.

Ixtlilton
Mar 10, 2012

How to Draw
by Rube Goldberg



Hi Ecco! I had a really good dinner tonight and I still have leftover chocolate gateau. I would give you some if you were here, it's good.

Retro Futurist
Aug 8, 2007

Yesterday's Tomorrow,
Today!




I don't think ecco is being exceptionally scummy. My point on merk that nobody but somber seemed to notice is that scum also want to kill the SK, so finding them gives no town cred whatsoever. Merk, of course, knows this, so him pointing to it as some sort of badge of towniness is in bad faith

Ixtlilton
Mar 10, 2012

How to Draw
by Rube Goldberg



Opop, what is the significant difference between SK and scum play in a game like this that merk would risk properly casing the SK? He even said he's playing like a survivor, which seems like a pretty big "slip" for what your going after if he is scum.

Ixtlilton
Mar 10, 2012

How to Draw
by Rube Goldberg



Also, that case has Town Opop written all over it, but now Opop's going to be scum and be the last guy alive and eat me again and it'll be his lynch-proof game all over again.

EXAKT Science
Aug 14, 2012

8 on the Kinsey scale


Hey I'm here too. There are just a lot of people posting who are very much better at Mafia than I am, as well as the fact that this is the largest game I've been in yet and it's all a bit intimidating :shobon:

Ecco, I'm not sure how to feel about you, partially because I've never played with you before and thus have no meta whatsoever to go off of. Your D1 callout of Ernie's (imo flawed) "hey everybody let's act scummy" seemed pretty townie to me, but I don't know how to feel about the repeated volleys beetween you and Somber. It seems to me more like two townies going at each other to me than anything else, though.

Hurt's flip is really interesting to me. He came up as Military-Aligned, and while that may just be a third party group of which he was the only member, it could also mean that we're dealing with multiple scumteams.

Retro Futurist
Aug 8, 2007

Yesterday's Tomorrow,
Today!




Ixtlilton posted:

Opop, what is the significant difference between SK and scum play in a game like this that merk would risk properly casing the SK? He even said he's playing like a survivor, which seems like a pretty big "slip" for what your going after if he is scum.

Can you rephrase that? I don't knwo what you're asking

Ixtlilton posted:

Also, that case has Town Opop written all over it, but now Opop's going to be scum and be the last guy alive and eat me again and it'll be his lynch-proof game all over again.

:devil:

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


The players who haven't said anything substantive this day so far (Monithan, Taste, Meinberg, bowmore, Toaster, and merk) need to get off their butts. I would be fine voting for any of them except merk, since merk correctly cased the SK yesterday, but, that generosity is waning, and if he can't put in the effort into this game, he should ask for a replacement.

Here are my thoughts on a handful of players who are here but haven't said much:

- I don't like how Asiina voted for me and ran, and I don't agree with her reasoning when she finally gave it. It feels less like "I think Ecco is scum," and more like "hey, come on f_v, stop fighting it just agree with me!". I also don't like that she was on the wrong side of the Ernie plan Day 1, since it was something opportunistic for scum to do (especially if they thought Ernie was one of their own).

- EXACT Science only just barely made the cut, and should probably be considered as a general "come on, post more already," along with Opop, Peta, and JJ. On that note though, as much as I like JJ agreeing with me, I still liked Opop's comment about JJ's reaction at the start of the day, and, and I hate saying this, but his agreement felt a little bit like buddying up in a way that made me read it as a little insincere (even if by agreeing with me JJ was being Super Sensible).

- Hiipfire never did come back with his own thoughts on the game, though, like he said he would here. Combined with only engaging with the JJ challenger discussion, he has also been a non-entity. I think, though, promising content and not delivering makes him worse than the others above, and I would happily vote for him.

- Monithan is a weird one because I sense there's more going on than he's willing to talk about, but he's not willing to share it, and I wish he would, because it's letting people make easy cases against him (Peta comes to mind).

- The cases against Monithan feel opportunistic, too. It screams "vote and forget," a strategy scum can easily do this game where posting is low.


And my thoughts on players who are here and posting:

- fiery and I have our differences but nothing about her posts makes me think she's scum.

- I really think Somber's points against me building up to his Big Post were silly, and were a lot of words trumped up on nothing. I like that I've apparently finally convinced him, but, I didn't actually say anything I hadn't already said I don't think. I think I could see a scum Somber making those points, but I would have a hard time seeing a scum Somber backing down from it, especially when I am (inadvertently) digging my own grave.

- I like Punt. I would be surprised if he was scum at this point in time.

- Dugong seems like a sensible fellow and he should post more.

Ixtlilton
Mar 10, 2012

How to Draw
by Rube Goldberg



Opopanax posted:

Can you rephrase that? I don't knwo what you're asking

Sure, what's the difference between SK and scum behavior in a game like this in your opinion?

Retro Futurist
Aug 8, 2007

Yesterday's Tomorrow,
Today!




Ixtlilton posted:

Sure, what's the difference between SK and scum behavior in a game like this in your opinion?

There isn't any. I mean theoretically scum will want to try and wink at each other but I'm not sure how that would be accomplished.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


EXAKT Science posted:

I don't know how to feel about the repeated volleys beetween you and Somber. It seems to me more like two townies going at each other to me than anything else, though.
For Somber:

EccoRaven posted:

I have a gut feeling about you, but I can't substantiate it, and... if we got embroiled into it people would dismiss us both as "townie slapfighting."

EXAKT I know you're intimidated but if you actually read the back and forth (and I'm so sorry if you did you sweet summer child), saying "just a townie slapfight" comes off a lot like a cop-out. It may very well be true that both me and Somber are townies, but, it would be more helpful for us to hear why you think it was a townie slapfight - what about his posts or my posts told you we're both townies? That sort of thing.

And if you just skimmed it feel free to say so, I wouldn't blame you, and nobody else would either.

Other than that I'm glad you're posting! It's a little embarrassing making a big post saying you should post more and here you are right before I post it; keep at it! You're better than you think.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Opopanax posted:

There isn't any. I mean theoretically scum will want to try and wink at each other but I'm not sure how that would be accomplished.

I think what Ixt is saying is that, we need to throw out the "results." In every other game, merk hunting down an SK wouldn't mean a thing about him being town or scum. But in a game where every scum player is a functional SK, it's less about the results and more about the process. Did it feel like merk's casing on Hurt was sincere? Did it feel like merk was actually going after someone he suspect was Scum, regardless of what that player's scum-alignment actually was?

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Merk is saying (and I have said regarding my casing on Ernie), that in order for either of us to be scum, you have to think either:

- We were sincerely casing someone we genuinely believed could be our own scumbuddy (this game's version of bussing), or
- We were insincerely casing someone we genuinely believed was just a dumb townie, not a scumbuddy.

Those are not unreasonable things to say, but the point is, just saying "merk is scummy for using an SK as cred" isn't really enough.

For what it's worth I felt like his casing of Hurt was sincere, though much more brief than he gives it credit for being.

Retro Futurist
Aug 8, 2007

Yesterday's Tomorrow,
Today!




Merk is good and cuthroat enough to case Hurt thinking he was scum, too.

merk
May 20, 2003

##interact

If I was scum, since I don't know my scum buddies, I'd be playing this game like a Survivor. I wouldn't give a poo poo who got lynched as long as it wasn't me, and I'd look drat persuasive not giving any of that poo poo when I made cases. I wasn't using the SK thing to throw in your face as a LAMIST (hate that acronym) but more of a 'how can you say I'm not trying when my efforts got us the SK?'

merk
May 20, 2003

##interact

wolfy

Jato
Dec 21, 2009

hootin' and hollerin'


Oh lord so many posts. D:

Sorry for my lack of activity, I've just been crazy busy with school and work lately and this game takes a lot more effort and attention than I expected it to. I should have some free time tomorrow to get caught up and put some thoughts together. At the moment I really just have no idea who to believe and I think I'm just too new and bad at this game and need some more practice in smaller games.

Anyway the only person I have any real opinion of right now is ecco. Something about his arguments with Ernie just strike me as fake and scummy. I'll put together some more concrete thoughts tomorrow when I am not in as much of a hurry.

merk
May 20, 2003

##interact

We're scum hunting in the wrong way. We need to be looking for people who are trying to find their scum buddies while themselves faking content. Ecco's d1 case on Ernie is a really lovely case, which is why I kind of think he's scum.

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merk
May 20, 2003

##interact

Like, yeah: ##vote Ecco

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