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SirDrone
Jul 23, 2013

I am so sick of these star wars

Blaze Dragon posted:

How to fix the issues between Digimon and humans when they are quickly getting closer?"
Oh god those rabid digimon fans are going to take this the wrong way

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The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008



Blaze Dragon posted:

As someone who has never watched the US dub and everything he's read about it makes him sick, I have to wonder why people defend it so much. I have to defend my own Latin American dub though, directly from the Japanese version and masterfully dubbed, though with a bit of confusion over which names to use (they always stuck to the same, but it was a weird mix of original and dub names). Apparently Savers was dubbed from the US version, but by that time I was already watching subs anyways.


All four main characters (Takato, Ruki, Jen, Ryo) in Tamers get Matrix Evolution/a Mega form, as does Impmon. While Takato gets a form beyond it in Crimson Mode, it's used once and just everyone reaching Mega was a massive step in the right direction from how main character-centric Adventure and 02 were. And then Frontier was even worse, and Savers gave all four mains the super mode and it was great.

And then Xros Wars was weird and gave two out of three a Super Evolution. Poor Nene. At least the manga rectified it and even Akari and Zenjirou get to evolve Digimon.

Ok well I also agree with you because I was a border kid so I literally would watch both and the Spanish version owned.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



SpazmasterX posted:

Probably because no one looks at it and goes "oh yeah that could totally take on all these giant armored dinosaurs and jet wolves"

It was the same with Gatomon. She was a loving Champion level just chilin' with a bunch of Rookies. It was always weird that they treated Angemon and Angewomon as a pair, when MagnaAngemon was her technical equivalent.

Sato
Apr 28, 2013


AlternateNu posted:

It was the same with Gatomon. She was a loving Champion level just chilin' with a bunch of Rookies. It was always weird that they treated Angemon and Angewomon as a pair, when MagnaAngemon was her technical equivalent.

Maybe because MagnaAngemon appeared so rarely?

Really, there was a lot of weird stuff going on with Gatomon. She was able to armor digivolve despite being a champion because her tail ring was gone which is really weird. She also went back to being Salamon while pretty much all the newbie Digimon went back to being babies after DNA digivolving. I always figured the writers forgot she was supposed to be a champion at times.

K. Flaps
Dec 7, 2012

by Athanatos


I still don't understand the logic behind dog --> cat --> angel --> that dragon thing from the movie.

Brony Hunter
Dec 27, 2012

Motherfucking Mannis

They'll bend the knee or I'll destroy them

There was one scene in Adventure where she fended off some of the Digidestined's Champion Digimon when she was still under Myotismon, but after that she was treated like a glorified Rookie. Funnily enough her Armor Digivolution is technically a "sidewise" one powerwise.
However, Gatomon DID reach her Champion state naturally (which implies she was much older than the other partner Digimon) which was probably why she rarely reverted to Rookie or anything lower.

KoB
Apr 30, 2009


Sato posted:

Maybe because MagnaAngemon appeared so rarely?

They also seemed to treat Angemon as way more powerful than the other champions.

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich


KoB posted:

They also seemed to treat Angemon as way more powerful than the other champions.

On the "lore" set by the games is stablished that the Angemon line is stronger naturally. So Angemon has strenght comparable to an Ultimate while MagnaAngemon is comparable to a Mega.

Zedd
Jul 6, 2009

I mean, who would have noticed another madman around here?




Angemon beat Devimon, they where both Champion but this one was more thematic light/dark.
Angemon (Champion) was able to hurt Myotismon (Ultimate) about as much as the other Digidestined (Ultimate)
Angemon's arrow as champion had the same effect as Angewoman (Ultimate) to awaken/trigger WarGreymon/MetalGarurumon.
MagnaAngemon (First time Ultimate) pretty much solo'd Piedmon (Mega).

His thing is being loving powerful, but rare.

I also believe the main reason for Gatomon being a champion as base form is mostly because of practical reasons for the show.
By that time Ultimate's where the only form that mattered and it would save them the hassle of going Rookie > Champ > Ultimate all the time with a new-ish partner Digimon.
This only became awkward in Adventure 02 when they introduced the armor form sidegrades and DNA Digivolution IMO.
Gatomon (without ring) was pretty much a somewhat weak champion in power, but armor stuff put her at: still champion level

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Brony Hunter posted:

However, Gatomon DID reach her Champion state naturally (which implies she was much older than the other partner Digimon) which was probably why she rarely reverted to Rookie or anything lower.

I don't think this is the case. The Digieggs of all eight Chosen's Digimon were together at first (as seen in the flashbacks in the Dark Masters arc), so they likely hatched around the same time too. Tailmon just had a far harsher life than the rest, and with that, a far greater need of strength, causing her to evolve from Baby I to Adult all on her own, while the rest lived more relaxed lives and as such could stay on their Baby II forms until they met the Chosen (and were forced into battle).

Her lack of reversion to lower levels is also explained (I think during the VenomVamdemon part of the Vamdemon arc), because she's been more trained than the rest, she can keep her Adult form even after Perfect evolution. Agumon is also able to keep his Child form at that point after becoming MetalGreymon, though the rest are unable to not become Baby IIs after evolving into Perfects.

During Adventure 02, Tailmon regresses to Plotmon after Jogress, and Patamon regresses to Tokomon, both only one level below their usual. Everyone else regresses to their Baby I forms, two levels lower, suggesting that they're more experienced and trained than the other four.

KoB posted:

They also seemed to treat Angemon as way more powerful than the other champions.

Constantly. Patamon as Angemon and HolyAngemon gets treated as far stronger than anyone else, even Digimon above his level. Angemon is able to do far more to Vamdemon than MetalGreymon and the rest of the Perfects (not counting Angewomon), and HolyAngemon is vital to beat Piemon, who had defeated WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon before. Even in 02, HolyAngemon is able to fight evenly with BlackWarGreymon, and only loses because BWGreymon destroys the Holy Stone that's allowing Patamon to keep his Perfect form.

On the other hand, the Angemon line gets treated horribly outside of these. Angemon dies against Devimon (the only partner Digimon in Adventure to do so), Seraphimon gets destroyed by Cherubimon in The Golden Digimentals and only serves as a glorified powerup for V-mon and Terriermon, both forms get annihilated easily in Frontier, and another Angemon is killed by Baalmon in Xros Wars.

Digimon just has a really weird love-hate relationship with Angemon, where he either is a total badass or cannon fodder that'd make Krillin proud. No middle point.

Rudoku
Jun 15, 2003

Damn I need a drink...




Sato posted:

Maybe because MagnaAngemon appeared so rarely?

Really, there was a lot of weird stuff going on with Gatomon. She was able to armor digivolve despite being a champion because her tail ring was gone which is really weird. She also went back to being Salamon while pretty much all the newbie Digimon went back to being babies after DNA digivolving. I always figured the writers forgot she was supposed to be a champion at times.

Hell, the old PSX card game had two different Gatomon. One Rookie (as a Partner), one Champion.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Rudoku posted:

Hell, the old PSX card game had two different Gatomon. One Rookie (as a Partner), one Champion.

That's because Digital Card Battle was based on the Adventure and 02 anime, and every Partner card was a 02 Partner (all of whom had two Armor Evolutions, adding some nice monsters that didn't get to shine in the series, Shadramon for instance). However, card fusion was also a thing, and you can't fuse Partner cards and they had to have the anime Jogress evolutions, so there's a 02 Tailmon card (the Partner card, Child level) and an Adult Tailmon card (referred to as R-Tailmon in-game, and has a special Jogress animation with Aquilamon for the Silphymon card)

To add to this, every 02 partner has a special arena for them and their evolutions, named Extra Arena, plus some appear in the normal arenas of their cities as well. Tailmon has both her Child and Adult forms as different encounters, shown by having different mugshots (in one, her tail can be seen and she clearly doesn't have the Holy Ring).

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich


Blaze Dragon posted:

That's because Digital Card Battle was based on the Adventure and 02 anime, and every Partner card was a 02 Partner (all of whom had two Armor Evolutions, adding some nice monsters that didn't get to shine in the series, Shadramon for instance). However, card fusion was also a thing, and you can't fuse Partner cards and they had to have the anime Jogress evolutions, so there's a 02 Tailmon card (the Partner card, Child level) and an Adult Tailmon card (referred to as R-Tailmon in-game, and has a special Jogress animation with Aquilamon for the Silphymon card)

To add to this, every 02 partner has a special arena for them and their evolutions, named Extra Arena, plus some appear in the normal arenas of their cities as well. Tailmon has both her Child and Adult forms as different encounters, shown by having different mugshots (in one, her tail can be seen and she clearly doesn't have the Holy Ring).

That game was loving awesome.

I never managed to get BlackWarGreymon to show up or the Miracles Digi egg, though.

Genocyber
Jun 4, 2012



I always figured Angemon was so strong because pretty much every Digimon we fought against was some sort of incarnation of evil and well, he's an angel.

KittyEmpress
Dec 30, 2012

Jam Buddies



They actually did explain why Gatomon was naturally a champion. Since she didn't find her partner as quickly as the rest of the digimon meant to find and be with a digidestined, she 'grew up' on her own.

The digidestined were portrayed as sort of a crutch in the first series - digimon with one could quickly reach forms they'd never think of reaching on their own (remember that getting to like, Ultimate or Mega is something portrayed as super rare, once in a thousand years, then remember that all of them do stuff like that) but for some reason they never really 'grew up'. They always seemed to revert to their rookie form, or even worse In Training.


In reality the reason why is probably just 'gatomon was a cuter champion than having something like Greymon with them constantly' same reason one of the kids got MarineAngemon in Tamers.

Rudoku
Jun 15, 2003

Damn I need a drink...




Blaze Dragon posted:

Digimon just has a really weird love-hate relationship with Angemon, where he either is a total badass or cannon fodder that'd make Krillin proud. No middle point.

And Leomon. Never forget Leomon.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



Genocyber posted:

I always figured Angemon was so strong because pretty much every Digimon we fought against was some sort of incarnation of evil and well, he's an angel.

Yeah. Didn't they have the whole Data -> Virus -> Vaccine triangle? Pretty much all the partner digimon are Data types which are naturally weak to Virus types (the entire Devimon evo line, Piedmon, Puppetmon, etc.) and Angemon/Gatomon were the only Vaccine types in the team. So, yeah, it was a mix of Angemon being strong for a Champion and getting a natural edge against 90% of the big bads due to typing.

I mean, they also treated Andromon like a loving powerhouse. He was a Champion holding off Megas in the second half of Adventure.

Edit: Oh. I remember him being a Champion. Shows what I know.

AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jan 13, 2015

Rudoku
Jun 15, 2003

Damn I need a drink...




AlternateNu posted:

Yeah. Didn't they have the whole Data -> Virus -> Vaccine triangle? Pretty much all the partner digimon are Data types which are naturally weak to Virus types (the entire Devimon evo line, Piedmon, Puppetmon, etc.) and Angemon/Gatomon were the only Vaccine types in the team. So, yeah, it was a mix of Angemon being strong for a Champion and getting a natural edge against 90% of the big bads due to typing.

I mean, they also treated Andromon like a loving powerhouse. He was a Champion holding off Megas in the second half of Adventure.

Andromon was a Perfect/Ultimate, and they said it was one of the strongest Digimon of it's class.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

That game was loving awesome.

I never managed to get BlackWarGreymon to show up or the Miracles Digi egg, though.

It's definitely my favourite Digimon game, and probably my favourite PS1 game, up there with FF Tactics. It's basically the only Digimon game I will call good without a second thought, and I fully recommend it.

Rudoku posted:

And Leomon. Never forget Leomon.

Leomon keeps to one side of the love-hate though, and it's definitely hate. If a Leomon appears, he dies. Even if he is or was a human (hi, Koichi and Suguru). I sure hope tri brings back (Saber)Leomon so he can die again, 02 felt so empty without a Leomon dying!

AlternateNu posted:

Yeah. Didn't they have the whole Data -> Virus -> Vaccine triangle? Pretty much all the partner digimon are Data types which are naturally weak to Virus types (the entire Devimon evo line, Piedmon, Puppetmon, etc.) and Angemon/Gatomon were the only Vaccine types in the team. So, yeah, it was a mix of Angemon being strong for a Champion and getting a natural edge against 90% of the big bads due to typing.

I mean, they also treated Andromon like a loving powerhouse. He was a Champion holding off Megas in the second half of Adventure.

The entire Agumon, Piyomon, Gomamon and Tentomon lines are Vaccine. Only the Gabumon and Palmon lines are Data, making them an absolute minority in the first team (that had no Virus whatsoever, Wormmon was the first Partner to be Virus not counting SkullGreymon, and Guilmon was the first Partner to keep being a Virus during his entire line).

Andromon is a Perfect, not an Adult. And nothing in the series ever states the triangle exists in-series.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




The Vaccine-Data-Virus triangle of weaknesses was a thing in Digimon World 2 and a semi-thing in the American release of the Digimon Card Game. It might have been a thing in some of the old V-Pets but hell if I know. It's also a sort of understandable idea derived from descriptions in Adventure 99 about what the 3 types mean, but like so many other elements of Digimon it's a vaguely accepted setting concept that doesn't actually have real traction in the anime.

Astro Nut
Feb 22, 2013

Nonsensical Space Powers, Activate! Form of Friendship!

AlternateNu posted:

Yeah. Didn't they have the whole Data -> Virus -> Vaccine triangle? Pretty much all the partner digimon are Data types which are naturally weak to Virus types (the entire Devimon evo line, Piedmon, Puppetmon, etc.) and Angemon/Gatomon were the only Vaccine types in the team. So, yeah, it was a mix of Angemon being strong for a Champion and getting a natural edge against 90% of the big bads due to typing.

I mean, they also treated Andromon like a loving powerhouse. He was a Champion holding off Megas in the second half of Adventure.

Edit: Oh. I remember him being a Champion. Shows what I know.

To be fair, I'm not sure the notion of him being a level higher as solidly in stone at the time - the same way Whamon has shifted about a bit.

But yeah, whilst the typing of the digimon wasn't a detail that wasn't strictly adhered to (and even less so outside the anime), I think it was one of those things that the writers might have had as a small influence. The episode where they use the cards to get back home does establish (if loosely) the concept of three attributes being a key factor in determining how a digimon works, and virus in particular having a tendency towards evil. But beyond that, they certainly don't rely on it (especially, I imagine, since it would kinda put a damper on having a new evolution show up if it was still at a disadvantage against its first foe).

Rudoku
Jun 15, 2003

Damn I need a drink...




Astro Nut posted:

To be fair, I'm not sure the notion of him being a level higher as solidly in stone at the time - the same way Whamon has shifted about a bit.


The old keychains had Perfect/Ultimate as the final stage, so there was that at least.

Kuroyama
Sep 15, 2012
no fucking Anime in GiP


Genocyber posted:

I always figured Angemon was so strong because pretty much every Digimon we fought against was some sort of incarnation of evil and well, he's an angel.

I remember seeing something on like a wiki that said Ange(wo)mon have an extra advantage against devil-type digimon. Like, they have one or two lines of code that make their attacks X% stronger against them.

But as other posters have pointed out, all the series have had different rules about how power is determined outside of digivolution levels.

Zedd
Jul 6, 2009

I mean, who would have noticed another madman around here?




As an aside, in a way I always thought both the original and the dub stages should be reordered namewise.
Rookie > Champion > Mega > Ultimate
Child > Adult > Ultimate > Perfect

That said, I also think that Mega's that can go beyond should get a new name for that instead of still being a Mega but stronger.

Astro Nut
Feb 22, 2013

Nonsensical Space Powers, Activate! Form of Friendship!

Those would be Super Ultimate/Ultra digimon, though the term is used sparingly and not to all the cases that really should count.

MorningMoon
Dec 29, 2013

Goons Steal?
No Dignity!



The latin dub went with Child>Adult>Ultra>Mega and I think that makes sense

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



ArmyOfMidgets posted:

The latin dub went with Child>Adult>Ultra>Mega and I think that makes sense

Far as I remember, the Latin American dub went with Novato -> Campeon -> Ultra -> Mega, taking from the English dub (the first two are literally Rookie -> Champion), which I can't say I'm a big fan of but removing Perfect is a good thing because Perfect makes no sense for a non-final stage (admittedly, it was the final stage back when it came out, but still), even if Ultimate shares a similar meaning of something that cannot be surpassed (and indeed, Ultimate/Mega-level Digimon can only evolve into stronger Digimon of their own level).

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




Rudoku posted:

The old keychains had Perfect/Ultimate as the final stage, so there was that at least.

Those were only the very first keychains though. Ultimate/Mega was introduced well before Adventure 99.


Astro Nut posted:

To be fair, I'm not sure the notion of him being a level higher as solidly in stone at the time - the same way Whamon has shifted about a bit.

Whamon has both an Adult and Perfect version for whatever reason. Same thing as Minotarumon which was initially a perfect and then appeared as an Adult in 02. And of course Arcadimon is named the same thing no matter how high it evolves.

Flippinlikebirds
Feb 2, 2007
I'm an ideas man Michael. I think I proved that with Fuck Mountain.

What was up with that episode in season 1 where Tai goes back to the real world for like a day? I remember the animation being really different. Was it originally part of a movie or something and they edited it to make it into an episode for the english dub?

Zedd
Jul 6, 2009

I mean, who would have noticed another madman around here?




Astro Nut posted:

Those would be Super Ultimate/Ultra digimon, though the term is used sparingly and not to all the cases that really should count.
The more you know.

I agree that different names altogether would be best, but here I am arguing logic in the stages of a mon-series.

MorningMoon
Dec 29, 2013

Goons Steal?
No Dignity!



Flippinlikebirds posted:

What was up with that episode in season 1 where Tai goes back to the real world for like a day? I remember the animation being really different. Was it originally part of a movie or something and they edited it to make it into an episode for the english dub?

It was the only anime episode directed by Mamoru Hosoda, animation director for the first digimon short and Our War Game (and currently he does movies such as Wolf Children and Summer Wars)

Also, anyone itching for more Digimon before Tri starts should just watch Summer Wars, it's essentially a remake of Our War Game.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



Angemon isn't stronger than the other digimon in Adventure. His attacks are just doubly effective against evil digimon. This is explained in 02 when Okuwamon wrecks him.

People who point out how he killed Piemon ignore the fact that MetalGarurumon and WarGreymon contributed just as much to taking him down.

As for Seraphimon, every single one of his fictional appearances involves him getting his poo poo wrecked

MorningMoon
Dec 29, 2013

Goons Steal?
No Dignity!



TFRazorsaw posted:



People who point out how he killed Piemon ignore the fact that MetalGarurumon and WarGreymon contributed just as much to taking him down.

Did they? Did they really? Cuz all I remember is them getting played for chumps in ten seconds and everyone getting turned into keychains one by one until MagnaAngemon popped up to wreck poo poo.

Abitha Denton
Jan 10, 2012


I mean obviously there must be some lore explanation why the first time a new digivolution is seen it's always immensely strong and can beat everyone else involved in the story up to that point. Whatever that lore explanation is, it's probably what Magnaangemon was taking advantage of.

What do you mean it's a toy commercial

Nahxela
Oct 11, 2008

Execution


The weird thing about MagnaAngemon to me is how his attack sent Piedmon and his Vilemon lackeys to another dimension, but when he used it on Black Wargreymon, it was like a vaccum cleaner instead of a gateway to another dimension. Maybe there's something I'm forgetting.

SpazmasterX
Jul 13, 2006

Wrong about everything XIV related
~fartz~


Nahxela posted:

The weird thing about MagnaAngemon to me is how his attack sent Piedmon and his Vilemon lackeys to another dimension, but when he used it on Black Wargreymon, it was like a vaccum cleaner instead of a gateway to another dimension. Maybe there's something I'm forgetting.

It was still a vacuum cleaner the first time around, it just actually worked a lot better.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



ArmyOfMidgets posted:

Did they? Did they really? Cuz all I remember is them getting played for chumps in ten seconds and everyone getting turned into keychains one by one until MagnaAngemon popped up to wreck poo poo.

It's at the end of the episode. He's managing to keep himself from being sucked into the Heaven's Gate, but then WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon use Grey Force and Garuru Tomahawk to blast him into it.

all HolyAngemon did was knock him down and run off with the keychains before that

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014



everythingWasBees
Jan 9, 2013



Okay I really really like the new art style.

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Astro Nut
Feb 22, 2013

Nonsensical Space Powers, Activate! Form of Friendship!

Gotta say, Agumon looks even more top heavy than before.

Beyond that though, has anyone translated the text yet?

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