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Chakram
Jun 3, 2010

Conquest.

I think it'll be fine. Tri will be the seventh series, and the general rule seem to be that only even-numbered series are awful.

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Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Chakram posted:

I think it'll be fine. Tri will be the seventh series, and the general rule seem to be that only even-numbered series are awful.

But Xros Wars was freaking awesome until Time Hunters, which could easily count as a separate series. Also a deliberate attempt to make the exact same mistakes 02 made.

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

Burkion posted:

Season 2 could very easily be re-written with minor alterations to be the Davis (and Ken in much smaller writing) show.
Yeah, 02 is pretty similar to a Red and Sixth centric Sentai series.

Chakram posted:

I think it'll be fine. Tri will be the seventh series, and the general rule seem to be that only even-numbered series are awful.
Despite the myriad problems it has, I still have a soft spot for Frontier.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




Onmi posted:

But Xros Wars was freaking awesome until Time Hunters, which could easily count as a separate series. Also a deliberate attempt to make the exact same mistakes 02 made.

Well love of Xros Wars isn't universal, I know I hated it. I'm hoping Tri is a show with a less divisive appeal.

Chakram posted:

Who's ready for lots of downplaying of anything relating to Adventure 02?

They've already announced they'll be focusing on the initial 8 in Tri. I still hope they don't completely ignore the 02 cast though, they already had one series where they were poorly handled and mistreated and it would be shame to be saddled with another.

Level Slide
Jan 4, 2011




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKoh5nBxfGw

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Burkion posted:

*Highfive*

I don't care who likes Season 2, it's just an objectively poor sequel.

Season 1 is a fantastic kids adventure series with strangely tight writing that helps you ignore the fact that the animation budget was enough to buy pizza so the animators didn't starve to death. Season 1 has amazing writing in that all of the kids are equally important, and hell, even the Digimon have pretty distinct and unique personalities, though part of that comes from the dub I admit.

That's 14, eventually 16, main characters who all work fantastically and all get moments to shine in important ways.

Season 2 could very easily be re-written with minor alterations to be the Davis (and Ken in much smaller writing) show.

And that's just from the character POV, Oh Jesus does season 2 have other issues.

I'd much prefer it if Season 2 was ignored entirely, but I'm willing to give Tri the benefit of the doubt on this. Hopefully they can recapture what made season 1 work, like Tamers did in its own unique way, and get away from Season 2's nonsense.

I'll debate some points here. First, that season 1 made everyone equally important: it's blatantly false. Sure, it was far better than its sequel or Frontier, but the focus was still very much uneven: you could remove Mimi, Joe and Sora from the series and it'd change little. Taichi and Yamato are important because of obvious hero/rival reasons, Takeru and Hikari serve as constant deus ex machina (which is bad writing), and Koushirou oddly gets an incredible amount of spotlight despite not falling into either category, likely because Adventure tried to put some importance in the "Digi" part of the title and he was the only one who could do anything with it. Sadly, no other series apart from Tamers does the same, but that's another topic entirely.

Second, that the Digimon had personalities. Only Tailmon shows a proper, developed personality, and even there it fades quite a bit after she joins Hikari. The other seven show a single personality trait each, and could as well not have any personality and it'd be almost entirely the same.

I'll agree with the 02 being the Daisuke/Ken show point (although Frontier is FAR worse in that regard), but I need to point out that the others do get some cool moments, which only makes it even worse. Whenever Miyako, Iori and even Takeru get the spotlight they're really cool and interesting characters. It's even more impressive in the last case, he was insanely boring and stupid in Adventure, 02 shows him with severe anger issues after the poo poo he went through, which would've been a really cool thing to explore more (his fight with Ken as the Kaiser, as well as against BlackWarGreymon, are basically the only two points where this shows). Hikari still lacks a personality and now she isn't even deus ex machina, but that's a problem for Adventure in general, not just 02.

I just cannot agree with ignoring 02 though. Apart from my hatred of retcons, 02 is key to the tri plot as we know it: Digimon and humans coming together more and more, leading to the 02 epilogue (which was horrible, but having an actual lead to it should make it far better in hindsight). As well, it'd mean ignoring/deleting Ken, and he's a really, really good character that I fully hope gets some spotlight even if he's not a main anymore.


Omnicrom posted:

Well love of Xros Wars isn't universal, I know I hated it. I'm hoping Tri is a show with a less divisive appeal.

You clearly aren't part of the fandom. No series is less or more divisive, every series other than Adventure will be hated by a specific part of the fandom for not being Adventure.

About Xros Wars, it's good. Not amazing, definitely not the best of Sanjo's works (probably Kamen Rider W) or the best Digimon series (definitely Tamers), but I'd rank it as good enough, ignoring that Hunters ever happened. The Xros Wars manga, on the other hand, is really good, and a must-read if you ask me. Better than Next, not as good as V-Tamer but what is?

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


So, people still didn't put together that for the initial 7 children that their Digimon were just extensions of their chosen trait? Agumon was Courageous, Gabumon was friendly (and shy), Piyomon loved pretty much everyone and clung to Sora from the beginning like that, Tentomon was Smart, Palmon was Pure, Gomamon was Sincere to the point of being a little poo poo about it because the concept of tact didn't exist to him, and Patamon was hopeful.

the only one who is their own character is Tailmon, who you know... grew up on her own and evolved and all that poo poo.

And you could not remove any of the 8 children, they all play their role in the story, are they 'as important' as one another? No. But they play their role.

And you're quite honestly ignoring 02's other problems, like how it had plotholes all over the place and was directly inconsistent with Season 1 both thematically and literally. I mean that's not surprising, it was directly inconsistent with itself and its own 'canon' side material.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


I can only speak from seeing the dub, though I will soon watch the Japanese original, but the Digimon all had very interesting personalities to me. Because, on the face of it, they are of course mirrors of their kids, as you mentioned. But most of them go their own way with it and are distinct for one reason or another.

Agumon is both a bit more sensible than Tai, and not as driven. He's brave, but doesn't have the bravado that Tai does, so he's often more careful than Tai can be.

Gabumon is far more honest and open than Matt ever is, even near the end. But he's also more emotional in general, easier to hurt while Matt brushes things off. And pretty shy about being seen without his fur.

Tentamon shares Izzy's curiosity, but that's about it. Tentamon isn't an especially intelligent Digimon though he some times pretends to be, and is very pessimistic. He's also a bit of a nag, worrying over Izzy more than the other Digimon do with their partners. Honestly he and Izzy have very little in common but do care for each other quite a bit, and they're nearly the most separate of the Kid Digmon dynamic.

The most, of the core 7, would be Goamamon and Joe. As was said above, he is utterly care free, while Joe is a huge stick in the mud- but this is where my having only seen the Dub starts to color things, I imagine, because in the Dub Joe had the crest of Responsibility- MIMI had the crest of Sincerity. So Goamamon lacking in responsibility was a very interesting thing, almost like Joe was hogging it all leaving none for his Digimon to worry about.

Mimi and Palmon are the other odd duck of the group, with Palmon being infinitely more sincere with herself than Mimi tended to be, Mimi not understanding Palmon's belief in simpler things or natural beauty.

And Biyomon might be the closest to her partner, though definitely with a much more pure outlook- a good parallel to Gabumon and Matt really.

Patamon, who arguably got the most focus of the main Digimon as his own character, was often more childish than TK and quicker to get upset or give up than TK. He also did not have TK's sense of humor about being a pork product, but that's neither here nor there.

Finally Gatomon. Gatomon was a cat brought to life, largely independent, even when she becomes a good guy, with a fierce streak to her.

More could have been done with her but there was a LOT of poo poo going down after she joined the team, and Season 2 pretty much wrecked her character and shunted her off to the side lines with Patamon.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Burkion posted:

I can only speak from seeing the dub, though I will soon watch the Japanese original, but the Digimon all had very interesting personalities to me. Because, on the face of it, they are of course mirrors of their kids, as you mentioned. But most of them go their own way with it and are distinct for one reason or another.

Agumon is both a bit more sensible than Tai, and not as driven. He's brave, but doesn't have the bravado that Tai does, so he's often more careful than Tai can be.

Gabumon is far more honest and open than Matt ever is, even near the end. But he's also more emotional in general, easier to hurt while Matt brushes things off. And pretty shy about being seen without his fur.

Tentamon shares Izzy's curiosity, but that's about it. Tentamon isn't an especially intelligent Digimon though he some times pretends to be, and is very pessimistic. He's also a bit of a nag, worrying over Izzy more than the other Digimon do with their partners. Honestly he and Izzy have very little in common but do care for each other quite a bit, and they're nearly the most separate of the Kid Digmon dynamic.

The most, of the core 7, would be Goamamon and Joe. As was said above, he is utterly care free, while Joe is a huge stick in the mud- but this is where my having only seen the Dub starts to color things, I imagine, because in the Dub Joe had the crest of Responsibility- MIMI had the crest of Sincerity. So Goamamon lacking in responsibility was a very interesting thing, almost like Joe was hogging it all leaving none for his Digimon to worry about.

Mimi and Palmon are the other odd duck of the group, with Palmon being infinitely more sincere with herself than Mimi tended to be, Mimi not understanding Palmon's belief in simpler things or natural beauty.

And Biyomon might be the closest to her partner, though definitely with a much more pure outlook- a good parallel to Gabumon and Matt really.

Patamon, who arguably got the most focus of the main Digimon as his own character, was often more childish than TK and quicker to get upset or give up than TK. He also did not have TK's sense of humor about being a pork product, but that's neither here nor there.

Finally Gatomon. Gatomon was a cat brought to life, largely independent, even when she becomes a good guy, with a fierce streak to her.

More could have been done with her but there was a LOT of poo poo going down after she joined the team, and Season 2 pretty much wrecked her character and shunted her off to the side lines with Patamon.

Yeha the Dub crests don't line up necessarily with the orignial crest names.

Honesty was really a pretty perfect one for Job because his character arc involves him growing up to decide that living the life that his father has planned out for him and never speaking out on what he wants to do or how he feels wasn't how he SHOULD live his life. In the end he makes the decision that he will become a doctor, but not because his father demanded that's where he take his life, but because he has a passion for it. And I thought that worked really well because It wasn't saying the career path was something he didn't want to do, just he was doing it for the wrong reasons.

Gomamon still has that brutal honesty with everything he does in comparison to Jou's silence on the matter. Another look into Jou's character arc is that he feels responsible for everyone because again, that's what he was told and taught he had to be, He's the oldest, ergo he's responisble for his Juniors, that's what Society says. His entire character is built upon society or his father or something else telling him "You have to live your life like X" instead of letting him come to the conclusion himself.

The key moment is when he meets his brother, who in fact doesn't follow their fathers wishes, and I think it's a testament to his character arc that his crest can be changed to 'Reliability' and still carry a lot of the same themes. 'Responsibility' also fits.

Mimi and Purity/Sincerity is a far stranger one. Mimi was 'Pure' in the sense that she was a kind soul who didn't judge others, or hold grudges, or really had any negative 'wants'. Which really doesn't fit with the personality the dub gave her. I think 'Purity' was sort of an abstract concept but it essentially was an all encompassing acceptance and love of all beings, which is characterized by Lilymons initial power being to convert enemies into friends, and Mimi's own ability as a person to convince formerly bad people to her side, because she just had that natural sense of not rejecting people based on who they were.

It's also why she's so distraught at the deaths in the world, she truly cares for all the beings that exist, and isn't good at bottling up or hiding those feelings. There's a neat moment in the first novel as well, when they're talking about Koushiro and basically how Mimi's friends would tease him, but Mimi herself never saw anything wrong with him. It fit her perfectly to me, because Mimi really wouldn't ever see Koushiro as anything different to what he was, or see the need to mock or tease him.

One of the main things that piss me off about 02 is their explanation for lacking 'Perfect' evolution is "They gave up the power of their crests" but the entire point of the original series was that the crests were nothing more than Placebo's for the kids to focus on when they needed to call on the 'power' inside them. And the 'power' inside them wasn't an actual power, it was just the personality traits a computer read for them at one point in time.

For 02 to have worked, Taichi would literally have had to give up his courage, Yamato his friendship, Sora her love etc. And don't even get me started on the Crest of Kindness bullshit. You can get away with a Digimental but Crests do NOT WORK THAT WAY.

ConanThe3rd
Mar 27, 2009



You laugh but as a Zeromus Boss that sort of dialogue is pretty much on the money.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Onmi posted:


One of the main things that piss me off about 02 is their explanation for lacking 'Perfect' evolution is "They gave up the power of their crests" but the entire point of the original series was that the crests were nothing more than Placebo's for the kids to focus on when they needed to call on the 'power' inside them. And the 'power' inside them wasn't an actual power, it was just the personality traits a computer read for them at one point in time.

For 02 to have worked, Taichi would literally have had to give up his courage, Yamato his friendship, Sora her love etc. And don't even get me started on the Crest of Kindness bullshit. You can get away with a Digimental but Crests do NOT WORK THAT WAY.

This was always something that bugged me too.

Season 2 is just incompatible with season 1 as far as ANY of the backstory goes.

Astro Nut
Feb 22, 2013

Nonsensical Space Powers, Activate! Form of Friendship!

Its honestly just a retcon to help smooth over maintaining the series status quo for several dozen more episodes after they had written out the control spires. Like, after those went bust, they could've just as easily said that original 8 minus T.K. and Kari were off in different parts of the digital world, and thus just not around for the action. Or have Black WarGreymon, since he's made of the freaking things, emit some kind of similar effect so that he suppresses the previous evolution methods. Bam, you have a reason for creating a new method, and the previous cast out of the way to let the new people still shine.

That in a way raises one of the interesting questions about Tri: Since its about the original cast, will they really keep the full digivolution set, or hit the reset button so they can have them go through the standard character development again?

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Astro Nut posted:

Its honestly just a retcon to help smooth over maintaining the series status quo for several dozen more episodes after they had written out the control spires. Like, after those went bust, they could've just as easily said that original 8 minus T.K. and Kari were off in different parts of the digital world, and thus just not around for the action. Or have Black WarGreymon, since he's made of the freaking things, emit some kind of similar effect so that he suppresses the previous evolution methods. Bam, you have a reason for creating a new method, and the previous cast out of the way to let the new people still shine.

That in a way raises one of the interesting questions about Tri: Since its about the original cast, will they really keep the full digivolution set, or hit the reset button so they can have them go through the standard character development again?

The thing is it's a dumb way to go about it. Why the gently caress didn't you just take away their Digivices? You know the things they actually well and truly NEEDED to evolve their digimon? That way you don't have to rape the established lore in the rear end.

As for Tri, man... I can't even think about what this series will be about.

Rudoku
Jun 15, 2003

Damn I need a drink...




Burkion posted:

This was always something that bugged me too.

Season 2 is just incompatible with season 1 as far as ANY of the backstory goes.

That and I wanted to see what Wormmon's Perfect form would be if the D.Kaiser didn't waste his crest making a shitmon.

Hitlersaurus Christ
Oct 14, 2005


Rudoku posted:

That and I wanted to see what Wormmon's Perfect form would be if the D.Kaiser didn't waste his crest making a shitmon.

It didn't exist at the time of 02 but probably this

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




Hitlersaurus Christ posted:

It didn't exist at the time of 02 but probably this

Back when 02 was new Wormmon's "official" Perfect was Dinobeemon. Note the quotation marks around "official" of course.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



Omnicrom posted:

Back when 02 was new Wormmon's "official" Perfect was Dinobeemon. Note the quotation marks around "official" of course.

Except they jogressed into Paildramon?

Montegoraon
Aug 22, 2013


Rudoku posted:

That and I wanted to see what Wormmon's Perfect form would be if the D.Kaiser didn't waste his crest making a shitmon.

Chimeramon? Sure, it was terrible. It was only one of the two precursors of the strongest digimon that had ever existed up to that point, who still has a very good claim to being one of the top badasses in the franchise.

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich


AlternateNu posted:

Except they jogressed into Paildramon?

ExVeemon and Stingmon are the only pair (that I know of at least) that have two possible jogress fusions according at who served as the base for the jogress.

Surprised at the compliants about the original digidestined losing their powers. At least on the latinamerican dub they made clear that they had to give their powers to fix the digiworld, not the crests.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Montegoraon posted:

Chimeramon? Sure, it was terrible. It was only one of the two precursors of the strongest digimon that had ever existed up to that point, who still has a very good claim to being one of the top badasses in the franchise.

In the Xros Wars manga, its final form ends up being defeated indirectly, because defeating it directly would be flat-out impossible. It's no joke that Millenniumon is still one of the strongest things in an universe of ridiculously broken monsters that could annihilate all of existance by sneezing.

I mean, Masaru could still probably punch Zeed, but the fact that I add "probably" is proof of how dangerous he is.

Omnicrom posted:

Back when 02 was new Wormmon's "official" Perfect was Dinobeemon. Note the quotation marks around "official" of course.

Well, it's as official as we're getting (short of tri showing it, which I seriously doubt). At least the 02 lines are consistant, unlike the Adventure lines that have gotten a few retcons (Gomamon's Mega went from Plesiomon to Vikemon and Tailmon's went from Holydramon to Ophanimon despite evolving on-screen)

Also Dinobeemon is cool and it should've appeared instead of the lame Paildramon. GranKuwagamon is badass as hell too, though I like Imperialdramon a lot too.

Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

Surprised at the compliants about the original digidestined losing their powers. At least on the latinamerican dub they made clear that they had to give their powers to fix the digiworld, not the crests.

Did it? I remember it saying that they were giving up their Crests, although I haven't watched the Latin American dub in ages, so you might be right. In any case, it's still a plothole, the powers were their feelings. Giving up that would make them empty shells, which they very clearly aren't.

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich


Blaze Dragon posted:

Did it? I remember it saying that they were giving up their Crests, although I haven't watched the Latin American dub in ages, so you might be right. In any case, it's still a plothole, the powers were their feelings. Giving up that would make them empty shells, which they very clearly aren't.

Yes and no. You have to remember that the partner digimon were also "probe digmon" made by Genai's buddies and not regular digimon (they were also designed to work in tandem with the crests) so I don't find that of a stretch the idea of they giving up some of their power to fix the digiworld.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Omnicrom posted:

Back when 02 was new Wormmon's "official" Perfect was Dinobeemon. Note the quotation marks around "official" of course.

And Gatomon had Magnadramon for her Mega level- mistakes were made back in the day.

I personally hope they just go full bore and give all of the original 8 fully stoked Digivolutions.


Though one thing I adored about season 1 as that the levels didn't matter TERRIBLY much. Every now and again you had the freakishly powerful Digimon, like Magna Angemon who never fought an enemy in EITHER series he couldn't have defeated, or you had the kids being very smart, such as Zudomon finishing off Metal Etemon with the help of SaberLeomon.

....thinking on it I think the biggest issue with Season 2, on top of everything else, was the utter lack of villains they had to fight.

Season 1 you had Devimon, Etemon and Datamon, Myotismon and Venom Mystoismon, The Dark Masters (Metal Seadramon, Puppetmon, Machinedramon, Piedmon, with each of them having at least one notable general), Metal Etemon, and Apocalymon for the big guns.

Season 2 we have.... Ken, kinda sorta though it never becomes a really personal fight. Chimeramon, Mummymon and Arukienimon *, Black War Greymon **, uh, Dagomon? does he count?, and Malo Myotismon

MAYBE six, if you count a filler villain who only showed up so Davis could get another power up, and a few of those are super questionable.

For further fun, the kill list also belies who was important for what series.

Devimon got ganked by TK

Etemon wasn't killed

Myotismon was killed by Kari

Venom Myotismon was killed by Tai and Matt

Metal Seadramon was killed by Tai

Puppetmon was killed by Matt

Metal Etemon was finally killed by Joe

Machinedramon was technically killed by Kari, as it was her power that gave War Greymon the strength.

Peidmon got killed by TK

And EVERYONE killed Apocalymon- though more appropriately, he killed himself.

Tai, Matt and Joe all got one kill by themselves, though Joe had assistance from Saber Leomon- otherwise the other big moments were either team events or because of TK or Kari. And that's really cool, to me.

Then we get to season 2 and of the six villains...

Chimeramon- killed by Davis

Malo Myotismon- killed by Davis and bullshit.


Goddamn season 2, what the hell.

* They weren't defeated by the Digi Destined, but instead Malo Myotismon

**Ditto, killed by Malo Myotismon


Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

ExVeemon and Stingmon are the only pair (that I know of at least) that have two possible jogress fusions according at who served as the base for the jogress.

Surprised at the compliants about the original digidestined losing their powers. At least on the latinamerican dub they made clear that they had to give their powers to fix the digiworld, not the crests.

I'd have to track down the Japanese version, but the English dub, it was the Crests they gave up- which is utter nonsense.

As was pretty expertly gone over, the crests are bullshit because they don't matter. The power is the kids themselves, their own traits. Apocalymon literally destroys them and they never get recreated- yet some how they give them up in season 2 to fix the Digital World that was already fixing itself?

Burkion fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Feb 22, 2015

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

ExVeemon and Stingmon are the only pair (that I know of at least) that have two possible jogress fusions according at who served as the base for the jogress.

Surprised at the compliants about the original digidestined losing their powers. At least on the latinamerican dub they made clear that they had to give their powers to fix the digiworld, not the crests.

Dark, the problem is that in itself is a plothole. the Kids didn't have any special 'Power'

Also the fact that despite having this 'Power' we have clearly Evil digimon running about with no trouble AND the 4 Gods are sealed (Again, because they got unsealed after adventure and RESEALED for 02) means that this 'Digital World Protect' was the dumbest drat poo poo that ever came along.

Also who made the Crest of Kindness? None of the other Crests just existed, Ken wasn't scanned with the rest of them, neither was his brother.

So did Ryo exist? if he did, then how come none of the other children remember him?

Why the gently caress has everyone in the real world forgotten about Digimon and the need to hide them has come up again? This isn't just randoms Koushiro's mother doesn't recognize them. I think the show tries to justify this by going "Gennai! That's why!" but that's bullshit!

Montegoraon
Aug 22, 2013


Onmi posted:

So did Ryo exist? if he did, then how come none of the other children remember him?

They did kinda gently caress him over pretty terribly. It's understandable that bringing him up would be rather uncomfortable.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




Onmi posted:

So did Ryo exist? if he did, then how come none of the other children remember him?

Why the gently caress has everyone in the real world forgotten about Digimon and the need to hide them has come up again? This isn't just randoms Koushiro's mother doesn't recognize them. I think the show tries to justify this by going "Gennai! That's why!" but that's bullshit!

Montegoraon posted:

They did kinda gently caress him over pretty terribly. It's understandable that bringing him up would be rather uncomfortable.

Not even that, Ryo's games suggest he got retconned out of the Adventure universe and ended up in Tamers. Interdimensional Time Travel is a hell of a thing. Remember the third Ryo game had a massive international Chosen Child fighting tournament presided over by the four gods that appears excised from existence.

Also Koushiro's Mother actually does remember Tentomon considering she asks about "Tento-san" in one of the exposition scenes at his place. Of course they still play the stuffed animal thing when she walks in, but I think that's somewhere between a gag and a reflex. I don't recall if there are any other scenes about the 99 kids hiding Digimon from their families, and both Iori and Ken had scenes where their families learned about their Digimon. I honestly don't have a problem with how 02 deals with Digimon existing. Adventure 02 plays "Monsters exist" as a thing that seems generally known but "They have kids they hang around with to power up" being mostly unknown. Considering the best known instance of Digimon running around was when Vamdemon conquered a city it roughly makes sense from a kids' perspective to keep having a Digimon partner a secret.

Really if you want plotholes rewatch the last 5 episodes of 02, the show falls absolutely to tatters. Take special notice of how many problems there are with Oikawa/Vamdemon's SORE MO WATASHI DA speeches in episodes 47 and 48.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Omnicrom posted:

Really if you want plotholes rewatch the last 5 episodes of 02, the show falls absolutely to tatters. Take special notice of how many problems there are with Oikawa/Vamdemon's SORE MO WATASHI DA speeches in episodes 47 and 48.

To be fair, I'd say it started falling apart by the end of the Kaiser Arc, but the rest of it was just "And it's time to go BANANAS!" Like deciding in the 40's that now was the time to have the kids freak out about killing. Or that Daisuke had no desires, or what the gently caress was up with Demon. Or why they thought locking Demon up with Dagomon was a smart idea! He's all "Oh, oh my goodness you have no idea where I'm being sent, hahahahahahaha"

And then NOTHING.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Can I ask, why the Hell did they tie Ken's back story to such ludicrously tenuously 'canon' things that weren't even available everywhere?

Ryo existing in the Adventure time line, circa season 1, takes some gymnastics pirouettes off of a loving stump to make any kind of sense what so ever to begin with.

Like what was the sense in this? Mind I'm PRETTY sure when Season 2 started, they didn't even know how season 1 ended and didn't care, considering how disconnected the two series feels and the fact that they imply Gatomon could Digivolve into Angewomon if it wasn't for the spires/her tail ring (which never mattered in season 1) before revealing OH YEAH THEY LOST THEIR CRESTS.


And of course Ken could make Agumon digivolve without a crest because of reasons but whatever.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Back when this show was originally dubbed, before fan pages were obsolete by Wikipedia, I had a fairly popular one for a time about this show. The second season wiped out my enthusiasm, though, and the games and whatnot always had this sort of "Star Wars Extended Universe" feel that felt almost completely divorced from the anime.

I'm kind of glad they're bringing back characters I can pretend to give a poo poo about. If it turns out this isn't actually any good, though, at least I'll always have Summer Wars as a modern take on the same sort of idea.

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich


Burkion posted:

Can I ask, why the Hell did they tie Ken's back story to such ludicrously tenuously 'canon' things that weren't even available everywhere?

Ryo existing in the Adventure time line, circa season 1, takes some gymnastics pirouettes off of a loving stump to make any kind of sense what so ever to begin with.

Like what was the sense in this? Mind I'm PRETTY sure when Season 2 started, they didn't even know how season 1 ended and didn't care, considering how disconnected the two series feels and the fact that they imply Gatomon could Digivolve into Angewomon if it wasn't for the spires/her tail ring (which never mattered in season 1) before revealing OH YEAH THEY LOST THEIR CRESTS.


And of course Ken could make Agumon digivolve without a crest because of reasons but whatever.

Was Ryo that much of a big deal to understand 02?

I didn't knew of him existing until years later and never had an issue understanding Ken's backstory.

And Ken evolved Agumon into a different version of Metal Greymon was more of a throwback/fanservice to the original Digimon toys.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

Was Ryo that much of a big deal to understand 02?

I didn't knew of him existing until years later and never had an issue understanding Ken's backstory.

And Ken evolved Agumon into a different version of Metal Greymon was more of a throwback/fanservice to the original Digimon toys.

As an older fan who knows Ryo's deal, his presence is still head scratching because his adventures make no sense in what Season 1 showed us.

As a kid who grew up and watched these shows airing at the time, I didn't know what the gently caress was up with Ken and Ryo and it bothered me. Season 2 bothered me a lot as a kid, because it just seemed kind of lame compared to season 1, with weaker plots and weaker characters. Literally and otherwise.

Ryo I didn't think much about at the time just because I had no idea what the gently caress was going on there and assumed it was some alternate universe bullshit. I never even connected the dots when he showed up in Tamers, that wasn't until later when I tried to get into the Digimon fandom online. So speaking from the target audience's POV, Ryo was a confusing mess best not thought about. Which is a good summary for season 2 I guess.

At least here in the States devoid of any extra material.

Maybe fans who grew up where his story was known at the time cared more

Montegoraon
Aug 22, 2013


Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

Was Ryo that much of a big deal to understand 02?

I didn't knew of him existing until years later and never had an issue understanding Ken's backstory.

Well, yes and no. The key point was that Ryo's mortal foe, Millenniumon, was the origin of the dark spore that made Ken a super genius and also turned him evil (as well as presumably manipulating his memory). The implication being that driving Ken to create Chimeramon, a precursor to Millenniumon, was the spore trying to recreate his old body. Which would have been an instant game over.

Millenniumon is one of my favorite digimon villains, because he's just so audaciously outrageous. He's the one who released Apocalymon from behind the fire wall, resulting in the events of season one. Then, as a follow-up act, he caused most of the events of season two, with nothing more than fragments of himself that he cast off as he was "dying." Malomyotismon was just cribbing off of the power left over by his corpse, except he wasn't even dead. He's seemingly unkillable, far beyond the norms for digital life.

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich


Montegoraon posted:

Well, yes and no. The key point was that Ryo's mortal foe, Millenniumon, was the origin of the dark spore that made Ken a super genius and also turned him evil (as well as presumably manipulating his memory). The implication being that driving Ken to create Chimeramon, a precursor to Millenniumon, was the spore trying to recreate his old body. Which would have been an instant game over.

Millenniumon is one of my favorite digimon villains, because he's just so audaciously outrageous. He's the one who released Apocalymon from behind the fire wall, resulting in the events of season one. Then, as a follow-up act, he caused most of the events of season two, with nothing more than fragments of himself that he cast off as he was "dying." Malomyotismon was just cribbing off of the power left over by his corpse, except he wasn't even dead. He's seemingly unkillable, far beyond the norms for digital life.

But that is the point, you didn't even see Millieniunmon clearly on the shot. You just see a big thing blowing up and Ken being hit by the spores. For the average american kid seeing the show the whole thing was pretty clear and straight forward.

Montegoraon
Aug 22, 2013


Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

But that is the point, you didn't even see Millieniunmon clearly on the shot. You just see a big thing blowing up and Ken being hit by the spores. For the average american kid seeing the show the whole thing was pretty clear and straight forward.

Yeah. It's really not needed to understand, or rather, it doesn't make the story any more coherent. But it does add a little subtext to the whole thing.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


Montegoraon posted:

Well, yes and no. The key point was that Ryo's mortal foe, Millenniumon, was the origin of the dark spore that made Ken a super genius and also turned him evil (as well as presumably manipulating his memory). The implication being that driving Ken to create Chimeramon, a precursor to Millenniumon, was the spore trying to recreate his old body. Which would have been an instant game over.

Millenniumon is one of my favorite digimon villains, because he's just so audaciously outrageous. He's the one who released Apocalymon from behind the fire wall, resulting in the events of season one. Then, as a follow-up act, he caused most of the events of season two, with nothing more than fragments of himself that he cast off as he was "dying." Malomyotismon was just cribbing off of the power left over by his corpse, except he wasn't even dead. He's seemingly unkillable, far beyond the norms for digital life.

So Ryo was basically part of a season to season metaplot that occurred through material outside of the series that never developed into its own?

Montegoraon
Aug 22, 2013


Xelkelvos posted:

So Ryo was basically part of a season to season metaplot that occurred through material outside of the series that never developed into its own?

Ryo's story spanned four games, one of which was even dubbed into English. But by the time he appeared in Tamers, that storyline had already been concluded. They ultimately defeated Zeedmillenniumon in the only way they possibly could, by sealing him in a prison he did not want to escape.

Allarion
May 16, 2009

がんばルビ!


He was basically the main characters for the games that happened in the background of Adventure 01 and 02, and through fan popularity was included as a character in Tamers.

Astro Nut
Feb 22, 2013

Nonsensical Space Powers, Activate! Form of Friendship!

Personally I find that, once you do know his story, Ryo is problematic for the franchise, but its almost something that really couldn't be helped. He's an OG character made for a video game, so of course he's gotta be able to bend the rules a little in order for him to be able to fit at all. And to be fair, from what I can recall of it, his first game wasn't that crazy, mostly rehashing characters from the show for Ryo to smash through in order to fight the new villain - pretty basic tie in stuff.

But then he sold well, and there was a need and demand to continue 'his' story. And his story, had it not been done through video games, would have stuck out like an absolute sore thumb because its utterly centred around him, and escalates massively to make his story (and more emphatically, the player's) ever more special. Like, tough poo poo digidestined, you may have been the ones to defeat everything else in the franchise by that point, but you're just not strong enough to face Millenniumon, so let's have Ryo do it instead. Oh and he was secretly Veemon's original partner, Ken's close friend before he became evil, the gods of the digital world make a whole secret tournament to test his strength, and then he gets to discover the origins of the digital world which will be subsequently ignored by every other incarnation of the franchise.

I'm honestly glad that managed to restrain themselves when making him outright appear in Tamers, and give him a backstory that was just kinda incidental to that setting. Like, he's just kinda trying to deal with controlling his partner more than anything else before the others give him some plot direction. Don't think I would have tolerated finding out his actual backstory in the show itself.

Montegoraon
Aug 22, 2013


Well, who's to say that ENIAC did not eventually develop into Yggdrasil? After all, in the real world, ENIAC only existed until the 50's.

And Ryo was not Veemon's partner. He had only one true partner, and that was Millenniumon. All the others except Monodramon were borrowed.

As for why only Ryo could beat Millenniumon, as well as his other most hard-to-believe feat, that he was able to have multiple digimon partners and power them up more quickly and to a higher level than their true human partners, the answer to both is really quite simple. The connection between human and digimon that allows the energy transfer needed for digivolution works in both directions. The whole time, Ryo was weakening Millenniumon to power up the others.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


You know this is one case where I'm super happy with the comparatively simplified Dub universe.

There, season 1 Digital World is just some weird dimension that borders the real universe, vaguely digital in nature compared to our organic stuff, but ultimately pretty similar. Just some weird poo poo goes down. And then a dude who was locked out of both universes looks in and goes gently caress everyone, then he breaks reality and tries to end everything twice over.

During one of those attempts some Digimon ended up in the real world, but kids bonded with one of those Digimon and made it more powerful than it naturally could have been, letting it take down the hostile Digimon. The people trying to contain the damage saw this, and selected a small group of kids who witnessed the event, gave them Digital partners-then got their poo poo wrecked by the Dark Masters who worked for the bigger dude. Kids get brought in a few years later when poo poo's pretty bad and they punch everything in the face until everything goes back to normal.

Season 2 can go gently caress itself for adding in useless digital gods and bullshit.

Season 3 then comes along and it's notably not the same time line or universe as the original, so different rules. Here the Digital World wasn't a naturally formed symbiotic thing with the real world, it was created and evolved on its own, and was thus WAY more digital and computery than the original Digital World EVER was. Here the Gods are an established fact and Ryo gets introduced in a super sane fashion- he's just another kid with a Digimon like the main group.

No bullshit multi game Gary Stu narrative, he's just some rear end in a top hat who got a troublesome partner and he got stuck in the Digital World way earlier than the others.

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Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Burkion posted:

You know this is one case where I'm super happy with the comparatively simplified Dub universe.

There, season 1 Digital World is just some weird dimension that borders the real universe, vaguely digital in nature compared to our organic stuff, but ultimately pretty similar. Just some weird poo poo goes down. And then a dude who was locked out of both universes looks in and goes gently caress everyone, then he breaks reality and tries to end everything twice over.

During one of those attempts some Digimon ended up in the real world, but kids bonded with one of those Digimon and made it more powerful than it naturally could have been, letting it take down the hostile Digimon. The people trying to contain the damage saw this, and selected a small group of kids who witnessed the event, gave them Digital partners-then got their poo poo wrecked by the Dark Masters who worked for the bigger dude. Kids get brought in a few years later when poo poo's pretty bad and they punch everything in the face until everything goes back to normal.

Season 2 can go gently caress itself for adding in useless digital gods and bullshit.

Season 3 then comes along and it's notably not the same time line or universe as the original, so different rules. Here the Digital World wasn't a naturally formed symbiotic thing with the real world, it was created and evolved on its own, and was thus WAY more digital and computery than the original Digital World EVER was. Here the Gods are an established fact and Ryo gets introduced in a super sane fashion- he's just another kid with a Digimon like the main group.

No bullshit multi game Gary Stu narrative, he's just some rear end in a top hat who got a troublesome partner and he got stuck in the Digital World way earlier than the others.

Well... there is ONE last tie-in game that explains how Ryo got to the Tamer universe. But more to the point if you didn't know they existed it wouldn't impact the show at all for you. If you did, then neat.

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