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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


It's not feudalism, it's the late 19th/early 20th century's view of the Japanese past which, hilariously, was filtered through a reverse-weeaboo's idea of what medieval Europe had been like.

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Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

HEY GAL posted:

It's not feudalism, it's the late 19th/early 20th century's view of the Japanese past which, hilariously, was filtered through a reverse-weeaboo's idea of what medieval Europe had been like.
Really? I seem to remember something different, but lets take that back to the history thread.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Hey guys, you know snake style kung fu, right? Today I went back to the class for the first time this year, and found the t-rex style longsword!

Hunched back and tiny stiff arms. Rawr. Gonna take a couple of weeks to get back in the saddle.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



I think I have a new record for gear failures in one day: two tip explosions (foil and epee) and a second foil not registering on switch press. Only my sabre survived!
I have spares for the tips, but god drat do I hate troubleshooting possible blade wire/socket faults.

Is there an actual good reason for using a single tiny wire instead of a proper sheathed multi-strand cable? I've always wondered this. Then again, bayonet plugs still exist.

BirdOfPlay
Feb 19, 2012

THUNDERDOME LOSER

It's a system that was designed in the 60's (30's for epee) and hasn't changed.

Seriously, from an engineering stand-point, how is using a Cat-5 in your foil better than the single wire currently used? I ask because most people (including loving engineers and designers of modern systems) fail to ask this question before redesigning something.

The main good from the current system is that it doesn't generate false positives. A broken blade constantly fires in foil and never fires in epee. Both are trivial to prove that the weapon is faulty rather than something else in the system.

EDIT: In regards to broken weapons, there's a reason most serious epeeists have 3+ weapons at tournaments. poo poo just sometimes doesn't work. It happens and sometimes you get a card for it. I see this at every major event I work, especially in pools. One bout, the weapon is fine, and the very next bout, something happens. Tip screw goes missing. A spring weakens. If you haven't had one of your weapons act weird, you haven't been fencing long enough or you do sabre.

BirdOfPlay fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Apr 30, 2015

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Oh yeah, I've wrecked a few weapons before, everything except the grip is basically a consumable. But I've never smashed 3 in the space of 2 hours until now...

The deal with using a cable with multiple strands is that it can be more flexible than a thicker gauge. And there's the big advantage that if one strand breaks, you're not totally screwed.

Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Apr 30, 2015

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Crazy Achmed posted:

Is there an actual good reason for using a single tiny wire instead of a proper sheathed multi-strand cable? I've always wondered this. Then again, bayonet plugs still exist.

Bayonet master race 4 lyfe.

Do sheathed cables 1/3 the diameter of the cables we're already using exist? Really, sounds like more complexity and cost for what's a fairly minor (if annoying) problem.

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery


Not to mention that most fencers are absolute geeks about shaving off as many grams as possible from their weapon. A sheathed cable may weigh just a little more. Another good reason is simplicity and cost, and the Way Things Are Done. I bet if you could come up with a superior wiring scheme that has a competitive cost and meets the regulations then it'd sell. Like tips, there are several different tip designs out there and fancy new ones come out all the time. Yet all I ever see are german tips, they just work well and are easy to fix and replace.

Granted, my weapons tend to last quite a while since I'm a posty french-gripper, but I still bring a minimum of 3 weapons and 5 body cords to a tournament. The worst I ever did though was lose two blades and the second only because it kept throwing a tip screw.

I saw one guy's epee literally shatter in his hand. We were halfway through the bout, and I came in and hit his bell guard on the way and all of a sudden his entire weapon falls apart into pieces. Blade, bell guard, plug assembly all fall on the floor and he's just standing there holding the grip attached to nothing.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



dupersaurus posted:

Bayonet master race 4 lyfe.

Do sheathed cables 1/3 the diameter of the cables we're already using exist? Really, sounds like more complexity and cost for what's a fairly minor (if annoying) problem.
My foils are bayonet, it's not a bad connector functionally but it's kinda overcomplicated for what it needs to be.

Thinking more about it, a sheathed multi strand cable would definitely be bigger in diameter than the existing blade wire, but surely the blade could be changed slightly to suit, we're talking 1mm or less here. Plus since the strands themselves aren't glued in, they can move inside the sheath as the blade bends, which should also extend their life.
But it'll probably only happen slightly after the US switches to the metric system...

curious lump
Sep 13, 2014

by zen death robot


El Spamo posted:

I saw one guy's epee literally shatter in his hand. We were halfway through the bout, and I came in and hit his bell guard on the way and all of a sudden his entire weapon falls apart into pieces. Blade, bell guard, plug assembly all fall on the floor and he's just standing there holding the grip attached to nothing.

I had that happen to an opponent after I did a particularly hard inside glide. Turns out it managed to break the tang at the top of the handle, causing it to practically disintegrate in his hand.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

For whatever reason that's a fairly common saber break, where the tang breaks in the grip and the whole weapon tumbles apart, leaving an empty guard in your hand.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

dupersaurus posted:

For whatever reason that's a fairly common saber break, where the tang breaks in the grip and the whole weapon tumbles apart, leaving an empty guard in your hand.

This is because lateral impacts (from cutting movements) put a lot stress on the shoulder of the tang. I do not know if fencing sabres are particularly prone to it because they are so light but in the instances I've seen with historical reproduction swords it's been chalked up to poor heat treatment.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



I've seen what dupersaurus is describing, and it's hilarious.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

If there's one thing I regret about not fencing saber, it's being able to spend just $30 to replace a broken blade.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





I'm curious, but why are fencing blades so easily breakable? Speaking with people who fence smallsword, rapier, or french foil, their weapons don't seem to break anywhere near as often as sport fencers. I mean, they're paying between $200 to $300, so there's that. Longswords can break from time to time, but it's mostly due to defect, problems with heat treatment, or using way too much force to begin with.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

We want our blades to bend. Even the best-made steel will eventually fail from fatigue when it's thin and you double it over dozens of times a week. YMMV, but I usually get 12-18 months out of a good foil blade. Saber blades are pretty much expendable. I imagine epees are pretty stout, but that's probably because epeeists are doing anything most of the time.

Edit: I'm presuming non-sport blades are made stiff like real weapons, don't have any actual experience with them.

dupersaurus fucked around with this message at 13:19 on May 4, 2015

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Verisimilidude posted:

I'm curious, but why are fencing blades so easily breakable? Speaking with people who fence smallsword, rapier, or french foil, their weapons don't seem to break anywhere near as often as sport fencers. I mean, they're paying between $200 to $300, so there's that. Longswords can break from time to time, but it's mostly due to defect, problems with heat treatment, or using way too much force to begin with.
I want them to bend and I want them to be as light as possible. Those two aren't compatible with durability. My high-end epee blades cost ~$150 and last me a little over three years of practice and competition. They also last that long because the international fencing body mandates a few things that lead to a slightly heavier and slightly less whippy blade than the USFA does. A cheap blade costs ~$75 and lasts about a year.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks


Verisimilidude posted:

I'm curious, but why are fencing blades so easily breakable? Speaking with people who fence smallsword, rapier, or french foil, their weapons don't seem to break anywhere near as often as sport fencers. I mean, they're paying between $200 to $300, so there's that. Longswords can break from time to time, but it's mostly due to defect, problems with heat treatment, or using way too much force to begin with.

Anyone who has ever fenced with a well-used Vniti epee knows that an indestructible blade is not a good thing. Those blades last forever, but the stress from bending over and over again gives them the consistency of a wet noodle after a while.

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005






ScratchAndSniff posted:

Anyone who has ever fenced with a well-used Vniti epee knows that an indestructible blade is not a good thing. Those blades last forever, but the stress from bending over and over again gives them the consistency of a wet noodle after a while.

yeah i do not think you could make a sport fencing blade as strong as a smallsword blade without just being a real sword.

DandyLion
Jun 24, 2010
disrespectul Deciever


I'm incredibly impressed with how precise and accurate high level sport fencers can be with blades essentially unstable/whippy compared to their historic martial counterparts. Any amount of wobble/flex inherintley adds another factor to account for when aiming the point onto target, and the fact that sport fencers accomplish precise target control with an implement that is essentially flexing like an arrow being shot from a bow as they travel to the target in some ways seems even more impressive than if they had a stiff rod-like blade.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Today I stabbed a cabbage to death with a dagger. What cool stuff have you guys been up to lately?

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

DandyLion posted:

I'm incredibly impressed with how precise and accurate high level sport fencers can be with blades essentially unstable/whippy compared to their historic martial counterparts. Any amount of wobble/flex inherintley adds another factor to account for when aiming the point onto target, and the fact that sport fencers accomplish precise target control with an implement that is essentially flexing like an arrow being shot from a bow as they travel to the target in some ways seems even more impressive than if they had a stiff rod-like blade.

And then you lose a touch because your wiggling tip bounced off of the target before the box registered it.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


dupersaurus posted:

your wiggling tip

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Siivola posted:

Today I stabbed a cabbage to death with a dagger. What cool stuff have you guys been up to lately?

I sparred my teacher and did pretty well (but honestly he could destroy me if he wanted)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUrUoD3j4-k (I'm in the black jacket)

Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 04:09 on May 8, 2015

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Verisimilidude posted:

I sparred my teacher and did pretty well (but honestly he could destroy me if he wanted)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUrUoD3j4-k (I'm in the black jacket)

It seems like in general you guys don't really bind a lot. Is that a consequence of the flexibility of the swords?

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Rodrigo Diaz posted:

It seems like in general you guys don't really bind a lot. Is that a consequence of the flexibility of the swords?

That's what I'm trying to work on in this video. You can see me trying to initiate a bind sometimes, but usually it ends up with one of us sailing off. The flexibility of the swords is fine, but they are pretty blunt which means swords have to bind somewhat artificially.

Neon Belly
Feb 12, 2008

I need something stronger.


dupersaurus posted:

And then you lose a touch because your wiggling tip bounced off of the target before the box registered it.

Gotta love the guys who wear chest protectors.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Gadamer posted:

Gotta love the guys who wear chest protectors.

Oh, I'm quite capable of doing it without the help of a chest protector.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Verisimilidude posted:

I sparred my teacher and did pretty well (but honestly he could destroy me if he wanted)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUrUoD3j4-k (I'm in the black jacket)
You're both wearing black jackets. Are you the one in the Leon Paul mask?

Siivola fucked around with this message at 21:43 on May 8, 2015

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Siivola posted:

You're both wearing black jackets. Are you the one in the Leon Paul mask?

Technically his is really dark green, but you're right, thats dumb. I'm in the black mask with the metal gloves.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Okay, that helps. You're both playing pretty passively, so if you're looking for binds, you could try just attacking more. Whether you end with swords bound or if they bounce off depends hugely on the initial strike and how the attacker supports his sword. You get deflected when your blade is smacked in a direction it's not supported in, so if you want to really stick, you need to shift your grip a bit for more lateral support.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



dupersaurus posted:

Oh, I'm quite capable of doing it without the help of a chest protector.
It might feel better without protection, but is it worth the risk?

serioustalk: maybe try pronating/supinating more if you're attacking to the sides of target? Or begin your attack/extension from slightly further away.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Crazy Achmed posted:

It might feel better without protection, but is it worth the risk?

serioustalk: maybe try pronating/supinating more if you're attacking to the sides of target? Or begin your attack/extension from slightly further away.

It's just the tip!

Starting too close is a problem, but in these cases it's more finishing too hard with the hand (oh god they keep multiplying)

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



What weapon are you talking about? If you're thrusting, you just need to relax, launch your attack from a fraction further away than normal, and make sure your hand goes first before your feet.
Think of just placing the point on target and touching it, rather than punching or trying to put power behind it.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Foil. And, yeah, I know what needs to be done; I'm climbing out of that gap between knowing and executing, but I've been making good strides on it. I tend to finish marching attacks a tempo or two later than I should (which causes all sorts of fun problems), and getting my brain to accept that I'm long enough to hit from out there has been an exercise. Sure makes life easier, though.

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless


Reading through this thread (on page 4 so far). I've always found fencing super interesting even from an early age, but I never knew where the hell to go to do it and my parents were never very motivated to help me out (just in that one regard). Kinda forgot about it until I saw this thread but now that I'm an adult with some disposable income this seems like a hobby I'd really like.

I'm in San Diego - any clubs you can recommend to a total beginner? Either modern fencing or historical fencing types?

Also how old is too old to start fencing? I'm not trying to be competitive or anything, I just want to duel with some swords and have fun getting exercise.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:30 on May 14, 2015

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


If you go back a page or two, somebody else asked about HEMA in the San Diego area. Kron is probably your best bet.

About age, if you don't care about competing, it doesn't matter when you start. One guy in our sidesword group is in his mid 60s. Watching him roll onto the lot on his giant fuckoff motorcycle with a sword strapped to the fairing is the high point of my day.

I've been trying to talk him into attaching a pirate flag to the fender, just so I have a new role model.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Moridin920 posted:

Also how old is too old to start fencing? I'm not trying to be competitive or anything, I just want to duel with some swords and have fun getting exercise.
You're never too old, as long as you've got a working arm.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Moridin920 posted:

Reading through this thread (on page 4 so far). I've always found fencing super interesting even from an early age, but I never knew where the hell to go to do it and my parents were never very motivated to help me out (just in that one regard). Kinda forgot about it until I saw this thread but now that I'm an adult with some disposable income this seems like a hobby I'd really like.

I'm in San Diego - any clubs you can recommend to a total beginner? Either modern fencing or historical fencing types?

Also how old is too old to start fencing? I'm not trying to be competitive or anything, I just want to duel with some swords and have fun getting exercise.

Yeah, KRON is probably your best bet for that area. They have a ton of students and they're a really good school, very well respected in HEMA circles. And you're never too old! It's actually good exercise so long as you're not hyperextending your wrists/elbows.

Though if you're very old you may want to take necessary precautions. We had a dude in his 60's for a while but he ended up quitting after getting a finger snapped. He had calcium issues that were brought on by age.

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Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless


I'm only 25, I was just noticing a lot of people earlier in the thread talking about destroyed joints and stopping in their 30s. Although I'd guess they were very competitive or whatever. I already do a martial art so I'm not super worried about it really, just thought I'd ask.


I'll check out KRON, thanks.

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