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ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013



Crazy Achmed posted:


Kendoworld seems to have a lot of the tournament up here: https://www.youtube.com/user/KendoWorld/videos
Looks pretty awesome, but I don't know what the rules are that govern the periods of time where the competitors are just kinda nudging each other with their weapons. I figure it must be kind of like in boxing where you end up with them just kinda leaning on each other sometimes (I know gently caress all about boxing, clearly), and either someone needs to do something or the ref breaks them up?
Also, it sounds like there's a second bout going on within earshot of the first - surely the screaming coming from one would be horribly offputting for the other match?

The 'nudging' is called tsubazeriai. You are supposed to actively to be seeking an opportunity for a strike. However, it's a very neutral position. The rule is that if neither competitor is actively trying to get out, you will separate them after 10 seconds. If this happens repeatedly, you can give both fighters a warning and if it's only one side trying to hang out, you can give that fighter a warning (2 warnings = 1 point). While it was better enforced this year than it has previously, it still has some ways to go and the team final especially, was very poor. It kinda always is. The problem is partly that the best referees are the Japanese/Koreans, but as Japan/Korea are always in the final, they can't use those.

There's 4 courts going at the same time...and no, you don't notice the other ones.

ImplicitAssembler fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jun 9, 2015

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Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


I need those uhlmann tips oh my god.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Crazy Achmed posted:

How do the judges' hand signals work (with the little red and blue sticks)?

It's sort of a work in progress, and the guy with the red shirt actually had his sticks backwards (his red stick should have been in his left hand to point at the red fighter). Essentially there are four judges (two head judges, two normal judges) and one ring boss (the guy with the pole). The two head judges get a red and blue stick and they watch both the red and blue fighters, and the two normal judges each get one stick (one red, one blue) and they watch their respective colored fighter. If the judges see one of the fighters hit the other, they'll yell "point!" which prompts the ring boss to yell "hold!" (until the ring boss yells hold, you can continue fighting). The system then goes as follows:

The ring boss yells "judges?"

>IF a head judge saw the blue fighter hit the red fighter, and was not hit in return, the head judge holds out the blue stick. The ring boss yells "clean hit on blue; target?". The head judge and blue judge (the one with the blue stick) then use the stick to indicate where they hit the opponent. If it was a thrust they kinda stab where they hit with the stick to indicate a thrust. This is important because a thrust to the chest or head is worth three points, while a thrust anywhere else is worth a single point. Cuts and slices to the head and above the shoulder are also worth three points.

Note: If the hit didn't have "quality", meaning the fighter hit with the flat of the blade, the "strong" of the blade (the half of the blade closer to the crossguard), the very tip of the blade, or the fighter didn't have good balance or stable footing), when the ring boss yells "target?" the judges will cross their hands beneath their waist to indicate no quality. A hit without quality counts for zero points.

Note: if the hit had "control", meaning the fighter did a textbook maneuver that effectively stopped the opponent from delivering any kind of blow in return (an example of this would be a disarm or takedown), when the ring boss yells "target?" the judges will indicate the target as they would normally, and then spin the stick above their head to indicate control. A control point is worth six points. Double note: if you are more than six points ahead of your opponent you automatically win.

>IF a head judge saw the blue fighter hit the red fighter, but the red fighter hit back after the initial blow, the head judge holds out the blue stick and raises the red stick above his head. The ring boss yells "failure to defend on blue; target?" and then the target is indicated just as before. Assuming the hit had quality, it can only ever count for one point (even if it would have normally qualified for three points). This blow can never count for control.

>IF a head judge saw both the blue and red fighter hit each other simultaneously, the head judge holds out both sticks. The ring boss yells "double" and there's some vague rule about if a double occurred because they both tried to do a maneuver (crossed double) or if both fighters just swung stupidly at each other without regard for their own well-being (open double). Crossed doubles are just thrown out and you keep fighting. If you get three open doubles in a match you both count as having lost and get zero points for the match.

It sounds really confusing on paper, but when you actually sit down and do it it works pretty well. Ultimately the ring boss gets the final say, so if they saw something egregious that everyone else missed they can rule in that favor (which happened a few times. Ring bosses are usually seasoned fencers with extensive judging backgrounds). There was a bit of an issue with really slight blows being counted sometimes, and other times being ignored entirely, but otherwise the judging was consistently good this year.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


It doesn't seem like there is a way to win a knife fight. And that seems much more likely than a sword fight. Tomorrow I am going to suggest a Mexican knife fight.

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


thewireguy posted:

It doesn't seem like there is a way to win a knife fight. And that seems much more likely than a sword fight. Tomorrow I am going to suggest a Mexican knife fight.

I've seen some guys spar with knives at my school and have decided it is the dumbest thing.

I watched one guy 'win' a match that would have left him minus three organs and use of an entire arm.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Yeah, if you ever watch a real knife fight you'll see how careful everyone is and how little actually happens. There's a video on facebook (I think the page Bloodiest Fights has it) of two dudes fighting with knives and it's pretty intense considering how timid they both are. It's a lot of slashing at legs and arms, because they're usually the closest target, and getting in close with a knife means your opponent is also in range. A knife is so small it can't easily be blocked off.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


This confirms my suspicion that anything like this is dumb as hell. Mutually assured destruction. I will continue training because I am a huge nerd who has played too much d&d as a kid. That and I am getting old and need to stay in shape... I was limping after the last session, staying in squat position for so long. Once I get used to this, I should be able to bounce up stone mountain next time.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Just wear a harness of plate like a proper knight. What are you, some kind of peasant? :smaug:

I've been thinking about daggers a lot recently, but man, every time we drill I realize I have no dang idea how to grapple. All this poo poo would be so much easier if I had spent my youth wrestling with the neighbourhood kids instead of holing up inside to read D&D novels. I'm pretty certain if I actually knew how to wrestle, even making the covers would be easier.

Guess I know what I'll be focusing on for the next while.

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


I'm coming into the hema thing with very little grappling experience but quite a bit of boxing experience and it's clear that apart from the speedy footwork I got from boxing, grappling would have been a much more useful thing to have trained.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

Verisimilidude posted:

It's a lot of slashing at legs and arms, because they're usually the closest target, and getting in close with a knife means your opponent is also in range. A knife is so small it can't easily be blocked off.
As far as I know thats the "right" way to do it - cut/stab the arms until he can no longer use them to wield the knife, then move in.

When unarmed against knife its "run" or as a last resort "get control over the knife at all costs and then win somehow. What do you mean "its sticking in my arm what did I do wrong?". Its GOOD thats its just sticking in your arm.".

If you even know that a knife is in play before you got cut/stabbed a few times of course :shobon:

DandyLion
Jun 24, 2010
disrespectul Deciever


thewireguy posted:

It doesn't seem like there is a way to win a knife fight. And that seems much more likely than a sword fight. Tomorrow I am going to suggest a Mexican knife fight.

Considering Tallhoffer (European fightmaster of the Renaissance time period) made the following statement :

Hie Facht an das Messer. – Gott wöll vnnsr nit vergessen.

Here they fight with Messers (knives). -- May God remember them.

Even the master's knew a knife fight was a suicide proposition.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Class time in 30 minutes, maybe I will level up this time :)

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery


Aim for the flashing part of your opponent, that's the weak spot

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


I did the konami code but I died more than 30 times... :(

Chillbro Baggins
Oct 8, 2004
Bad Angus! Bad!


thewireguy posted:

It doesn't seem like there is a way to win a knife fight. And that seems much more likely than a sword fight. Tomorrow I am going to suggest a Mexican knife fight.

"Winner dies in the ambulance, loser dies at the scene" is a pretty good description of fights with bladed weapons in general -- there are plenty of stories of sword duels where the "winner" preserved his honor by stabbing the other guy in the heart/brain and killing him on the spot, only to succumb a day or three later to a sucking chest wound because the loser stabbed him through the lung(s) early in the fight.

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


William E. Fairbairn's style of knife fighting that he developed is all slashing all the time, plus keeping your bodylow and out of the way

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


Yeah. The masters of swordplay aren't the guys that can defeat other masters, it's the guys that can defeat novices and drunks.

If you fight suicidally (or, worse, don't know that you're fighting suicidally) it's actually not that hard to stab somebody with more experience.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


tirinal posted:

Yeah. The masters of swordplay aren't the guys that can defeat other masters, it's the guys that can defeat novices and drunks.
but they are also the drunks

it's the middle ages/early modern period, it's drunks all the way down

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Delivery McGee posted:

"Winner dies in the ambulance, loser dies at the scene" is a pretty good description of fights with bladed weapons in general -- there are plenty of stories of sword duels where the "winner" preserved his honor by stabbing the other guy in the heart/brain and killing him on the spot, only to succumb a day or three later to a sucking chest wound because the loser stabbed him through the lung(s) early in the fight.

The only winning move is not to play... Yet we do. Is anyone going to Dragon con this year? Y'all can crash at my place and let's have a melee!

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


HEY GAL posted:

but they are also the drunks

it's the middle ages/early modern period, it's drunks all the way down

That's me! Maybe I have a chance after all!

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

As my coach says when people ask him what he'd do in a real swordfight: "bring a gun"

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


dupersaurus posted:

As my coach says when people ask him what he'd do in a real swordfight: "bring a gun"

Indiana Jones? You jus t can't parry that poo poo. It is suicide unless the other guy is unarmed. Well, as long as everyone keeps the kid gloves on, it is all fun and games.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

DandyLion posted:

Considering Tallhoffer (European fightmaster of the Renaissance time period) made the following statement :

Hie Facht an das Messer. – Gott wöll vnnsr nit vergessen.

Here they fight with Messers (knives). -- May God remember them.

Even the master's knew a knife fight was a suicide proposition.

The messers in this case are more like swords than stilettos, not really an applicable example.

Also I think everyone in this thread is being unreasonably dire about the difficulty of defending yourself skilfully with hand weapons. There are plenty of examples of such fights ending with clear victors and losers, the most stunning of which usually involve large weapons such as the montante.

I mean, if fights were such a death sentence how would we even develop the techniques to begin with? There is clearly more to the fechtbuchs than guys who have never fought before suddenly sitting down to write comprehensive systems of defence.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Rodrigo Diaz posted:

The messers in this case are more like swords than stilettos, not really an applicable example.

Also I think everyone in this thread is being unreasonably dire about the difficulty of defending yourself skilfully with hand weapons. There are plenty of examples of such fights ending with clear victors and losers, the most stunning of which usually involve large weapons such as the montante.

I mean, if fights were such a death sentence how would we even develop the techniques to begin with? There is clearly more to the fechtbuchs than guys who have never fought before suddenly sitting down to write comprehensive systems of defence.

How rare is it to kill someone before they can stick you? I would think that hitting a leg and waiting for them to bleed out is fine, but I think sport stuff implies prolonged brawling where both parties score, and therefore die.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


thewireguy posted:

How rare is it to kill someone before they can stick you? I would think that hitting a leg and waiting for them to bleed out is fine, but I think sport stuff implies prolonged brawling where both parties score, and therefore die.
you can get cut w/o dying

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


HEY GAL posted:

you can get cut w/o dying

Great, so I win but am crippled? I guess that is something. You can take a punch and shake it off, but getting stabbed? I guess defense first, always.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Rodrigo Diaz posted:

I mean, if fights were such a death sentence how would we even develop the techniques to begin with? There is clearly more to the fechtbuchs than guys who have never fought before suddenly sitting down to write comprehensive systems of defence.
I agree entirely. One medieval author writing about dagger defenses you maybe could disregard as ~low percentage~ bullshido, but the same techniques pop up time and again across centuries and whole continents. There's probably a meaningful difference between Fiore's abrazare, Meyer's ringen and Japanese jujutsu schools, but man, poo poo looks identical. It just makes no sense we have all these dudes laying down all this stuff for surviving a dagger assault (in Fiore's case, over 100 dang illustrations) if they make no meaningful difference. Not to mention all the German fencing guilds that made their money by training people to fight in a context where getting stabbed at was still a respected profession.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Siivola posted:

I agree entirely. One medieval author writing about dagger defenses you maybe could disregard as ~low percentage~ bullshido, but the same techniques pop up time and again across centuries and whole continents. There's probably a meaningful difference between Fiore's abrazare, Meyer's ringen and Japanese jujutsu schools, but man, poo poo looks identical. It just makes no sense we have all these dudes laying down all this stuff for surviving a dagger assault (in Fiore's case, over 100 dang illustrations) if they make no meaningful difference. Not to mention all the German fencing guilds that made their money by training people to fight in a context where getting stabbed at was still a respected profession.
Clearly, I have a lot to learn. Nice drawings. I may buy a book when I have money to burn.

Waci
May 30, 2011


thewireguy posted:

Great, so I win but am crippled? I guess that is something. You can take a punch and shake it off, but getting stabbed? I guess defense first, always.

You grossly underestimate the human body.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Waci posted:

You grossly underestimate the human body.

I know if somebody stabbed me, I would stab them back. Loss/lose

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Waci posted:

You grossly underestimate the human body.

It's not even that. When Hegel mentioned cuts I don't think they meant exclusively "full force and unimpeded slashes", though those are survivable as well, but rather smaller nicks and flesh wounds that one accrues in the course of a combat.

Your point is valid as well, of course. Jean de Joinville, for example, mentions a companion (who survived) that was stabbed with a spear and blood flowed from him like a wine cask with the bung pulled but continued fighting. Robert Bruce suffered a sword wound over one eye, the future king Henry V received a deep arrow wound to the face, etc.

EmmyOk
Aug 11, 2013


Had my first night back training after a 10 month lay off with a snapped ligament. Hoping to 'reset' all my bad habits and breed some new good ones.

DandyLion
Jun 24, 2010
disrespectul Deciever


Rodrigo Diaz posted:

The messers in this case are more like swords than stilettos, not really an applicable example.

Fair enough, they were in fact generally closer to short 1 handed swords than modern knives. Still, why would Tallhoffer say something like that and not similar remarks for the rest of his 1 handed sword material? Genuinely curious.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





http://www.mandatory.com/2015/06/15/this-is-what-happens-when-you-give-drunk-people-a-sword/

Drinking AFTER swords is fine. Heck, drinking while using gekken swords is also fine (and really fun). Drinking with sharp swords (especially if you're a bunch of bros) is not cool.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

DandyLion posted:

Fair enough, they were in fact generally closer to short 1 handed swords than modern knives. Still, why would Tallhoffer say something like that and not similar remarks for the rest of his 1 handed sword material? Genuinely curious.

Without strong corroboration from a similar source there is no way to know for sure. It could be that grossemessers are generally associated with peasants and thus the fighters are implicitly unskilled. Could be that it was seen as a more vicious weapon, or maybe that because the men in the plate in question fight without shields (which may again relate to them not being professionals) they are more likely to both receive grievous injury. Could be any combination of those, or something I haven't considered.

My point is you cant draw strong conclusions about weapons of substantially different physical properties based on a comment with very little context. A 2 lb grossemesser is not going to behave the same as a <1 lb dagger or knife, and would not have been used the same.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


Vnnsr means "us," not "them." Perhaps some sort of ritual beginning to the fight? "We're starting to fight now: may God not forget [either of?] us." (Not sure what the genitive is doing there)

DandyLion
Jun 24, 2010
disrespectul Deciever


I only mention it because in my local group the knife fights are by far the hardest to win unanimously with. Even the best members in the group win no more than 50% of the time, and usually you end up being cut/stuck a half dozen times even when you 'win'. We felt the correlation in the aforementioned quote related to how difficult it was to isolate/limit your opponent before they injured you, and since injuries could mean death a while later, the context seemed to our eyes to imply that Tallhoffer was mentioning it because even with the instruction /proper training, there was a good chance one would die anyways.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




DandyLion posted:

I only mention it because in my local group the knife fights are by far the hardest to win unanimously with. Even the best members in the group win no more than 50% of the time, and usually you end up being cut/stuck a half dozen times even when you 'win'. We felt the correlation in the aforementioned quote related to how difficult it was to isolate/limit your opponent before they injured you, and since injuries could mean death a while later, the context seemed to our eyes to imply that Tallhoffer was mentioning it because even with the instruction /proper training, there was a good chance one would die anyways.

This seems likely to me, because knife fights are nasty like that. The first rule of knife fighting has always been that you're going to get cut, win or lose.

If only because it's really hard to do enough damage to instantly incapacitate an opponent with a single knife shot.

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


Liquid Communism posted:

This seems likely to me, because knife fights are nasty like that. The first rule of knife fighting has always been that you're going to get cut, win or lose.

If only because it's really hard to do enough damage to instantly incapacitate an opponent with a single knife shot.

The first rule of any kind of fight is that you're going to get hurt, with knives it may be better to take a cut to the forearm so you can deliver a stab to the neck or something

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thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


I got a blood blister on my big toe.I guess I am not steeping and dragging my feet.I less sore on the quads, but both big toes and balls of feet are rubbed raw

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