Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks


Siivola posted:

If your club is like ours and insists on masks while drilling, you should probably start with that. As long as you make sure it fits properly, having your own mask should be a massive quality of life improvement.

Wearing someone else's mask is sort of like wearing someone else's jockstrap. On your face.

The old-timers at my club said that they used to not wear masks while drilling back in the day and somehow there were zero accidents.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



thewireguy posted:

Holy poo poo, they want 100 to 2,300 bucks for the art of combat by Joachim Meyers.
A new edition was published in December, get that instead. It's like 20 on British Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1848327781

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




Rodrigo Diaz posted:

So hey any of y'all seen this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLTcVJGMBkQ

Anybody familiar enough with tulwar or other South Asian martial arts to tell whether he's full of poo poo? because it seems like he is but idk for sure.

It's interesting, but if any of his opponents actually knows how to use a buckler (hint, punch his dumb rear end with it), then he's going to have trouble.

That said, with the beard and turban I'd guess he's Sikh, and they had a pretty fearsome reputation as swordsmen back in the day. This could be historical, I'd have to see sources.

HEY GAL posted:

the difference is because americans, in my experience, are huge babies about getting hit on the hands

Hands, eyes, throat/spine. None of these things are optional to have protected.

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


Kemper Boyd posted:

The old-timers at my club said that they used to not wear masks while drilling back in the day and somehow there were zero accidents.

There's an Irish stick fighting drill/game where you have to knock the top hat of your opponents head, I'd love to see it done. That said, I think doing drills with no protection is a great way to learn control, all martial arts clubs need way to weed out the egomaniac assholes that make everything dangerous for people.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Kemper Boyd posted:

Wearing someone else's mask is sort of like wearing someone else's jockstrap. On your face.

The old-timers at my club said that they used to not wear masks while drilling back in the day and somehow there were zero accidents.

We only wear masks when we're practicing strikes to the head. We haven't had any accidents outside of incidental contact. I think there's something to be said about expecting a level of control from students, but every now and then you get an rear end in a top hat who will literally whack you with the sword. There's a new guy in our school who is way too into things and will blame someone else for getting hit even if it's a drill where you're supposed to get hit. He'll then try to counter what you're doing in the drill, which makes everything completely pointless. The higher level students had to talk with him, and I haven't seen him back in class in a few weeks.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Kemper Boyd posted:

Wearing someone else's mask is sort of like wearing someone else's jockstrap. On your face.

The old-timers at my club said that they used to not wear masks while drilling back in the day and somehow there were zero accidents.

You have convinced me to get a mask first.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





My fencing teacher is trying to get more involved with media, and he decided to start up a YouTube channel dedicated to HEMA. His first video is titled Practicing Parrying with Structure and Precision. It's good for all levels of longsword fighters (even novices) and it's well worth a look. Like and subscribe if you can, he needs at least 500 subscriptions in order to change his URL from alphabet soup into something proper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J7AORhi7cw

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Okay which one of you is the guy going "this would never work in the cage" in the comments?

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Siivola posted:

Okay which one of you is the guy going "this would never work in the cage" in the comments?

It is suicide unless you are Conan or kung fu. But I would totally watch that, like mmabattlebots thunderdome. I would be in favor of the new death race 2000 sorta law.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Siivola posted:

Okay which one of you is the guy going "this would never work in the cage" in the comments?

That's me. Trolling Tristan is one of my life's efforts.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


I would pay per view for Mexican knife fighting hobos.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


It seems like everyone paints their facemask... Post yours? I was thinking of a comedy/tragedy mask, but I would like to see yours.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Verisimilidude posted:

My fencing teacher is trying to get more involved with media, and he decided to start up a YouTube channel dedicated to HEMA. His first video is titled Practicing Parrying with Structure and Precision. It's good for all levels of longsword fighters (even novices) and it's well worth a look. Like and subscribe if you can, he needs at least 500 subscriptions in order to change his URL from alphabet soup into something proper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J7AORhi7cw
Looks like solid stuff to practise, and nicely explained, but oh god oh god oh god why are they not wearing any protection? Especially when they demo the face-stabbing riposte exercise and emphasise that the cut-to-flank should be done with intent to hit

I don't know if I could ever be bothered painting my mask, but maybe I could put a bullseye on it for when I'm fencing foil.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Crazy Achmed posted:

Looks like solid stuff to practise, and nicely explained, but oh god oh god oh god why are they not wearing any protection? Especially when they demo the face-stabbing riposte exercise and emphasise that the cut-to-flank should be done with intent to hit

That's just how we roll, baby.

Actually we've had a string of newbs hitting each other in the hands which is prompting more and more newbs to practice with big bulky gloves with I think is actually hindering them, personally. You should be able to control your strikes enough that you don't hurt your training partners, and as the person defending you shouldn't be blocking with your hands to begin with. Usually when we do stuff specifically to the hands/head we wear gloves/masks, but for a body drill where accidental contact won't really hurt you we shouldn't bother. What ends up happening is people get too reliant on wearing protection and don't have the fear of bodily harm that should come with practicing weapons-based martial arts. Too much protection and you become careless. If you're getting hit in the hands during a not-hand-targeting exercise then someone in that pair is doing something fundamentally wrong.

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


I wish getting hit on my hands was a thing. When I was a newb I somehow kept getting stabbed in my right nipple.

Elegant dance of finesse that rapier is, it turns out it's hard to feign dignity with an inflamed nipple. Alas.

Speaking of which, my ex-girlfriend does fencing occasionally and adamantly refuses to wear a chest protector even though it's strongly encouraged at her level for all the girls. Not from indifference, but because she quickly discovered that for most guys that entire area is forbidden for lunges, which she cheerfully exploited to do utterly bullshit things that nobody would counter.

I'm still trying to decide if this is a step forward or back for feminism.

tirinal fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Jul 5, 2015

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

If we're talking Olympic fencing, then it's actually a rule that she has to wear one.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Also, her partners need to suck it up and fence her normally regardless.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


When I went to get my lacrosse gloves, the guy showed me fencing gloves that were thin leather with no padding. I know I don't know what I am talking about, but is he right?

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


For hema? You want some heavy padded fuckers

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





thewireguy posted:

When I went to get my lacrosse gloves, the guy showed me fencing gloves that were thin leather with no padding. I know I don't know what I am talking about, but is he right?

You want the lacrosse gloves. A typical fencing glove may stop you from getting cut or bruised from a foil, saber, or epee hit (though I imagine the guard on the weapon is what really keeps you safe) but for longsword or practically any HEMA-related weapon you'll want something a bit more padded, at least until you feel comfortable enough to use something lighter, or upgrade to something a bit more suited to the weapon (like sparring gloves).

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Verisimilidude posted:

A typical fencing glove may stop you from getting cut or bruised from a foil, saber, or epee hit (though I imagine the guard on the weapon is what really keeps you safe)

Really they're about penetration protection, and even then they're sketchy. Bruising happens.

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks


Rabhadh posted:

For hema? You want some heavy padded fuckers

Or just go the whole hog and get some gauntlets while at it.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks


Verisimilidude posted:

That's just how we roll, baby.

(safety stuff)

This is pretty irresponsible IMHO. You can talk all day about how much control you have, but all it takes is for the other guy to spaz out for one second to seriously hurt you. I would recommend anyone doing this kind of thing to wear eye protection, if nothing else.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

Kemper Boyd posted:

Or just go the whole hog and get some gauntlets while at it.
One thing to consider is that metal gloves are a good knuckleduster and will gently caress up your opponent given the chance.

Unless maybe you exclude all the wrestling moves, only use metal if your opponent is clad in metal too.

Verisimilidude posted:

You want the lacrosse gloves. A typical fencing glove may stop you from getting cut or bruised from a foil, saber, or epee hit (though I imagine the guard on the weapon is what really keeps you safe) but for longsword or practically any HEMA-related weapon you'll want something a bit more padded, at least until you feel comfortable enough to use something lighter, or upgrade to something a bit more suited to the weapon (like sparring gloves).
Lighter cloves are useful for technical drills where you dont suffer unwanted contact though. The sword just gets less rusty if your sweaty palms are inside a glove.

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


Nektu posted:

One thing to consider is that metal gloves are a good knuckleduster and will gently caress up your opponent given the chance.

Unless maybe you exclude all the wrestling moves, only use metal if your opponent is clad in metal too.

Lighter cloves are useful for technical drills where you dont suffer unwanted contact though. The sword just gets less rusty if your sweaty palms are inside a glove.

Why don't people wear steel gauntlets or cuisses in hema tournaments? Is it purely a weight thing?

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


Rabhadh posted:

Why don't people wear steel gauntlets or cuisses in hema tournaments? Is it purely a weight thing?

Steel gauntlets are necessary against sharpened steel delivered with great force. Most HEMA tournaments do not allow sharpened steel or particularly excessive force.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

Kemper Boyd posted:

Might be a local thing, because around here, I've seen both feders and regular longswords used in tournaments. At least those of my buddies who got gauntlets for sparring say that it was totally worth it for the added protection.
Also, they use federschwerter for sparring which are lighter than swords and flexible (reduced danger of hurting someone with a thrust!).

Especially thrusts are a bitch with solid weapons (even if they have rounded points).

Nektu fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jul 5, 2015

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks


Might be a local thing, because around here, I've seen both feders and regular longswords used in tournaments. At least those of my buddies who got gauntlets for sparring say that it was totally worth it for the added protection.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

Kemper Boyd posted:

Might be a local thing, because around here, I've seen both feders and regular longswords used in tournaments. At least those of my buddies who got gauntlets for sparring say that it was totally worth it for the added protection.
The "ask me about medieval combat" thread had a video of a sword-and-buckler match were a guy broke one of the bones in his opponents arm with a not-even-very-hard stroke.

She kept fighting and won the bout though

Still, if your opponent brings a sword, bring appropriate protection....

(Cant find the link atm.)

ANIME AKBAR
Jan 25, 2007

afu~


Ravenfood posted:

Its loving boring as poo poo and as soon as you stop concentrating, someone will go for a toe touch right next to the edge of the piste (or its ungrounded) while the other person is stepping off the side and then you have to make the only call of the match that's actually interesting and you blew it because even as a pretty decent epee fencer a day of reffing it sounds like hell. Especially if the quality of the bout is lower.

e: Like, I'll watch high-level epee bouts for fun and the idea of reffing epee all day makes me cringe.

The two highest level refs I've met (both were olympic level) told me straight up that at that level, epee is the hardest weapon to referee properly. You start your day, get through four bouts with nothing notable happening. During the second period of the fifth bout, you close your eyes to yawn, and when you open them one fencer is on is rear end, the other fencer has a foot off the strip and their weapon is broken. Both lights are on, and they are both looking at you wondering what just happened. And since it's epee, you aren't allowed to make any mistakes with calls. Practically all calls in epee are technical, so there is no wiggle room. You have to be perfect, or you're done for. Even when completely insane poo poo happens.

At a high level, foilists and sabrists are used to adapting to differing conventions of priority. Epeeists tolerate none of that poo poo.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Learning to yawn with your eyes open is a requirement to ref epee

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





ScratchAndSniff posted:

This is pretty irresponsible IMHO. You can talk all day about how much control you have, but all it takes is for the other guy to spaz out for one second to seriously hurt you. I would recommend anyone doing this kind of thing to wear eye protection, if nothing else.

We usually weed out people who are complete spazzes prior to allowing them to practice with steel or with blade-on-blade contact. You are right though, we run a risk. Because of the recent rash of injuries we've been seeing, we either need to teach newbs to tone poo poo down or require people to have at least light protection (perhaps higher level students can forgo hand protection). I'll bring it up to one of the assistant instructors and see what they have to say.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Nektu posted:

The "ask me about medieval combat" thread had a video of a sword-and-buckler match were a guy broke one of the bones in his opponents arm with a not-even-very-hard stroke.

She kept fighting and won the bout though

Still, if your opponent brings a sword, bring appropriate protection....

(Cant find the link atm.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7bh9RHfOnI

Kristine Konsmo is a badass.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks


Verisimilidude posted:

We usually weed out people who are complete spazzes prior to allowing them to practice with steel or with blade-on-blade contact. You are right though, we run a risk. Because of the recent rash of injuries we've been seeing, we either need to teach newbs to tone poo poo down or require people to have at least light protection (perhaps higher level students can forgo hand protection). I'll bring it up to one of the assistant instructors and see what they have to say.

Even experts have bad days now and then. For the sake of everyone else reading this: Even blunted weapons can mess up your eyes pretty badly. If someone points a weapon at you and you aren't protected, you are taking a serious risk.

Edit: Other protective stuff depends on the drill or whatever. Some crazy people fence sabre shirtless and walk away with nothing worse than some nasty bruises, but even they wesr masks.

ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jul 5, 2015

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Until you have your poo poo down, just GO SLOW. I need to be reminded.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



ScratchAndSniff posted:

Even experts have bad days now and then. For the sake of everyone else reading this: Even blunted weapons can mess up your eyes pretty badly. If someone points a weapon at you and you aren't protected, you are taking a serious risk.
This is our teacher's stance too. Way he tells it, he started insisting on masks during all pair drills after his friend (a very experienced fencer) walked into a wooden practice dagger and lost an eye.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




I actually got knocked loopy in a SCA match one day and it reminded me why I love proper protective gear. Total my-fault accident while training with 4 foot axes, I was new with them and ducked just wrong into a shot that was headed for my shoulder. Instead I caught the haft square between the eyes about a foot above his hands, and got my bell rung. He tried to pull it but I basically headbutted his stick.

Safety gear isn't to keep normal practice hits from hurting you, it's to keep one-off dumb accidents from hurting you.

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


I was told not to duck when sword fightin' as it apparently makes your head an easier target, its a tough habit to break from boxing. Maybe it's different when the ranges are a lot closer, but the longsword guy I was sparing said it was good advice.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

Rabhadh posted:

I was told not to duck when sword fightin' as it apparently makes your head an easier target, its a tough habit to break from boxing. Maybe it's different when the ranges are a lot closer, but the longsword guy I was sparing said it was good advice.
Ducking works in boxing, because your opponent has to pull back his hand to attack again (fists are blunt weapons). Not so with swords.

If you duck (maybe against a horizontal attack at head level) your opponent's sword will end up right above your head. Now he only needs to cover some very few centimeters for a thrust against your face or a cut/cleave into your neck or shoulder. An edged weapon does not need force to do its damage, so it doesnt matter that he did not build that much momentum.

Evading attacks is a thing though, but for me it feels more like a matter of playing with distance (and the miscalculation of distance) and sometimes, maybe, sidestepping or twisting out of his line of attack if he is thrusting or attacking vertically.

But if you are squarely in range, the only way to protect yourself is to threaten him so urgently that he needs to abandon his attack and go on the defense instead and/or to bind his sword and work from there.

Nektu fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jul 6, 2015

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Rabhadh posted:

I was told not to duck when sword fightin' as it apparently makes your head an easier target, its a tough habit to break from boxing. Maybe it's different when the ranges are a lot closer, but the longsword guy I was sparing said it was good advice.

You can duck slightly if your sword is in place to defend yourself from immediate counterattack. A drill I learned from JSA utilizes a very minor duck: one person has a padded gekken, and one person has nothing (hand/arm takes the place of a sword, or you can use a sword if you like). The goal of the drill is to not step backwards, which is the typical movement people tend to make when being attacked. You want to step towards your opponent, preferably off to their side (and within the reach of their sword), such that they need to turn their head to see you. Using your sword to shunt their blade (with longsword you can do this safely down to the crossguard or schilt). This teaches you to intercept a blow as it's coming towards you while simultaneously putting yourself into a very advantageous position to either strike or use a takedown. It also embodies the JSA concept of "seme" or pressure, part of which requires your defensive actions (blocking the sword) to be inherently offensive in nature (putting yourself into a strong position).

In practice (unless your opponent is much larger than you) you typically need to duck slightly in order to get your sword underneath theirs to protect you from an immediate counterattack. Better timing requires less of a duck as your sword is safely blocking theirs (and your form is strong enough that your weapon doesn't collapse).

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply