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Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



I'm short, so ducking into a squat and counterattacking (cut/thrust to the forearm for sabre or epee, thrust to six just under the armpit for foil) is a very viable strategy for me - but only against tall people who aren't expecting it.

Not to derail on to the subject of gloves again, but I've been hit hard enough to make me bleed through my glove before. With a foil.
(glove in question was one of these - thin leather with padding on the outside of the fingers and hand. Probably not so good for heavy weapons but definitely saved me a lot of grief for foil/sabre/epee.)

We practised fleches this week in training, drat that was fun. There are also a couple of newbies who are just on the verge of getting good enough to be fun to fence with without having to hold back too much.

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thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


That is one thing I learned from capoeira, to step in. The meaty part of your leg does not hurt like the heel would. I also am having a hard time maintaining sword distance.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Relearned an old lesson. Footsweeps do not work unless you are picking up or putting down your foot. drat, I am rusty.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




Verisimilidude posted:

You can duck slightly if your sword is in place to defend yourself from immediate counterattack. A drill I learned from JSA utilizes a very minor duck: one person has a padded gekken, and one person has nothing (hand/arm takes the place of a sword, or you can use a sword if you like). The goal of the drill is to not step backwards, which is the typical movement people tend to make when being attacked. You want to step towards your opponent, preferably off to their side (and within the reach of their sword), such that they need to turn their head to see you. Using your sword to shunt their blade (with longsword you can do this safely down to the crossguard or schilt). This teaches you to intercept a blow as it's coming towards you while simultaneously putting yourself into a very advantageous position to either strike or use a takedown. It also embodies the JSA concept of "seme" or pressure, part of which requires your defensive actions (blocking the sword) to be inherently offensive in nature (putting yourself into a strong position).

In practice (unless your opponent is much larger than you) you typically need to duck slightly in order to get your sword underneath theirs to protect you from an immediate counterattack. Better timing requires less of a duck as your sword is safely blocking theirs (and your form is strong enough that your weapon doesn't collapse).

Yeah, as I was taught it, the drill is to step in and to their weak side, shunt the attack past your weak shoulder, and throw the snap cross to their face. Unfortunately I failed at it.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Liquid Communism posted:

Yeah, as I was taught it, the drill is to step in and to their weak side, shunt the attack past your weak shoulder, and throw the snap cross to their face. Unfortunately I failed at it.

I never really thought about this, but I wonder if this would give me a slight advantage being left-handed. If I do this against a right-handed fencer and I step in on their weak side, I am now present with my strong side.

Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jul 8, 2015

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Oh, trust me, you have an advantage being a lefty. Everything is backwards, and beat/opposition to quarte has to be done really, really well or else it doesn't work at all

thewireguy, if you are having trouble keeping distance, grab a partner about the same height as you and work out how far away you need to be to hit them with a lunge or similar attack. Then, from that distance, look at how far your tip is from theirs when you're both standing en garde.
For foil, anyway, the "danger zone" is usually roughly when the tips cross - I'm not sure how much this changes for longsword (what is the typical en garde position for that, anyway?) but maybe there's some rough equivalent for you.

Keldoclock
Jan 5, 2014

by zen death robot


Is there anything like spear fencing? Always seemed like it would be easier to learn and more effective, but google only gives results for like, wooden fences with decorative spears.

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Keldoclock posted:

Is there anything like spear fencing? Always seemed like it would be easier to learn and more effective, but google only gives results for like, wooden fences with decorative spears.

Or axes? Maybe that sca stuff... I am not trying to get Olympic, just have fun. And be king nerd one day.

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


Keldoclock posted:

Is there anything like spear fencing? Always seemed like it would be easier to learn and more effective, but google only gives results for like, wooden fences with decorative spears.

Quite a bit yeah

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Staff_Weapons

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Crazy Achmed posted:

For foil, anyway, the "danger zone" is usually roughly when the tips cross - I'm not sure how much this changes for longsword (what is the typical en garde position for that, anyway?) but maybe there's some rough equivalent for you.
It's kind of a tricky thing, because the way longsword masters thought about it was, you don't really stand in a static guard like later fencers would. Instead, guards are a tool for breaking movement down. In Fiore, you might start in posta di donna destra, strike a mandritto fendente through posta longa and finish in posta di dente di zenghiaro. Or, in English, start with your sword on your right shoulder, strike a descending forehand blow through your full extension and finish with your sword at your left hip, pointing down and forward.

(I find the Italian useful, since it reminds me that Fiore is not Liechtenauer is not Suio-ryu. All of these have descending forehand blows, but the context is probably different across the styles.)

So yeah, there really isn't a knack to measuring your distance in longsword. You kinda just have to see it, and that's something that comes with pair drills and pellwork.

Keldoclock posted:

Is there anything like spear fencing? Always seemed like it would be easier to learn and more effective, but google only gives results for like, wooden fences with decorative spears.
Not to the extent people have written about the longsword, but there are a bunch of sources. Probably the most approachable are Antonio Manciolino's Opera Nova from 1531 and Joachim Meyer's A Thorough Description of the Art of Combat from 1570 (note that he only writes about the staff, but the principles are the same), and Diacomo di Grassi's The Way to Employ Arms with Certainty, also from 1570.

They're approachable because it's Renaissance and they write like actual people. Doesn't hurt, of course, that you can find all three books published fairly recently in modern English, too: Manciolino on Freelance Academy Press, Meyer also on Amazon, and di Grassi on Lulu.

If you want a more sporting version, you can look up naginata-do (or, occasionally, atarashii naginata). It's kind of like kendo, but with the Japanese glaive.

Siivola fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Jul 8, 2015

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


I think it's George Silver that said you use a longsword exactly the same way you use a spear.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


it's all a knife-on-a-stick, there's just different stick : knife ratios

Keldoclock
Jan 5, 2014

by zen death robot


HEY GAL posted:

it's all a knife-on-a-stick, there's just different stick : knife ratios

I see you've played knifey spooney before.

I appreciate all of the HEMA links, but I don't start a martial art unless I can practice it at least three times a week. I'll look into new Naginata. I won't be able to train, but I'm very interested in just what I can learn in my first six hours, and there's a place I can do it less than a day's travel from me.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



I suspect that wushu might also have a spear form of some kind, but I can't say I really know anything about that.

Siivola, so what are you generally doing with your weapon, then, if you're not attacking or being attacked by your opponent - surely you'd be doing some kind of guard or threaten? Or do you mean that there's no particular preference/tendency (whether taught as a "default" or just what people usually gravitate towards) for any particular stance?

Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Jul 8, 2015

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

Crazy Achmed posted:

I'm short, so ducking into a squat and counterattacking (cut/thrust to the forearm for sabre or epee, thrust to six just under the armpit for foil) is a very viable strategy for me - but only against tall people who aren't expecting it.
I fully appreciate that us historical fencers can learn a LOT about speed from sport fencers, but could you leave his area of influence after you scored your hit before he can smack you back with a long and deep lunge like that one going for his armpit?

Crazy Achmed posted:

For foil, anyway, the "danger zone" is usually roughly when the tips cross - I'm not sure how much this changes for longsword (what is the typical en garde position for that, anyway?) but maybe there's some rough equivalent for you.
I learned that distance as the beginning of the danger zone for longsword too.

Regarding th eguard posiiton, the sources present it roughly like this:

They encourage you to keep changing your en-guard position constantly to keep your opponent from adapting his attack and his defense to your current guard. Each of the basic positions lends itself to attacks from certain directions or to certain types of attacks (thrust, cut). And each basic position lends itself to certain parries.

In the end both parties will keep moving/changing/adapting until one thinks that he can attack into an opening and takes that opportunity (that said, longpoint is a nice and easy position with a lot of flexibility if you are unsure what to do). One (or both fencers) may score/take a hit now. If no clear hit was scored, they will probably be in the bind and continue from there.



Also re: ducking in boxing because Muhammad Ali is just
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSFQrPzSAnE

Nektu fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jul 8, 2015

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Nektu posted:

I fully appreciate that us historical fencers can learn a LOT about speed from sport fencers, but could you leave his area of influence after you scored your hit before he can smack you back with a long and deep lunge like that one going for his armpit?

You're planning to do it so that they end up at a distance where they're too close to get to you (say, charging big at you and, whoops, his target is done and he's tripping over you). But we're working with scoring boxes that won't register a second hit after a handful of milliseconds, so, y'know.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

dupersaurus posted:

You're planning to do it so that they end up at a distance where they're too close to get to you (say, charging big at you and, whoops, his target is done and he's tripping over you). But we're working with scoring boxes that won't register a second hit after a handful of milliseconds, so, y'know.
If he gets that close in historical fencing, you wrestle him to the ground and/or make-believe-bash-his-head-in with your pommel

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Crazy Achmed posted:

Siivola, so what are you generally doing with your weapon, then, if you're not attacking or being attacked by your opponent - surely you'd be doing some kind of guard or threaten? Or do you mean that there's no particular preference/tendency (whether taught as a "default" or just what people usually gravitate towards) for any particular stance?
Nektu got it well, our instructor also encourages people to move from guard to guard while out of measure. The guards are such that you can always make a strong strike or a parry from them, and the opponent has to deal with that first before she can proceed to lopping off your head.

That said, if you look at tournament footage, people don't really do that a whole lot. There's a lot of waiting with the point in line sport fencer style, with no passing steps or other historical oddities. It wins points, I suppose.

Here's what I think proper longsword tournament fencing should about look like. There's a beautiful exchange at 1:40.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiuUBu_k170

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

Siivola posted:

That said, if you look at tournament footage, people don't really do that a whole lot. There's a lot of waiting with the point in line sport fencer style, with no passing steps or other historical oddities. It wins points, I suppose.
Its easy to make a good argument about wasting energy with changing guards while not quite in range.

I dont think its useful to change guards while you wait or move around out of range. It makes more sense to me if you see it as something that happens while you start pressuring your opponent with the preparation for an attack - while you are going out there to look for an attackable opening.
(Disclaimer: Actually executing that in a useful way is a different thing altogether ).

Siivola posted:

Here's what I think proper longsword tournament fencing should about look like. There's a beautiful exchange at 1:40.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiuUBu_k170
Hmm. My trainer would call that "Katapultfechten" aka catapult fencing. They hit sword on sword, then flee from the bind and both pull back to strike again.
In theory that fleeing from the bind (and the pulling back!) leaves the person breaking contact first open for a followthrough by his opponent (distance and so on permitting).

Is that just because of the Federschwerter which dont work well for binding because they just wobble all over the place, or is it taught like that?

Nektu fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jul 8, 2015

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013



That was neat.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Now that you mention it, that is pretty odd. I don't think it's that they're actively fleeing the bind as such, it looks more the blades just immediately deflect and it goes into a parry-riposte-parry-riposte rally. I haven't had the chance to do freeplay so I'm just guessing based on the drills we've done, but it's probably a mix of blunts, stiff gauntlets and prioritising speed over strength in the strikes that is to blame.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks


Nektu posted:

If he gets that close in historical fencing, you wrestle him to the ground and/or make-believe-bash-his-head-in with your pommel

Sport fencers do this too. It's frowned upon in tournaments, though.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

My dearly loved neon yellow Balestras have finally bit the dust. I'd get another pair, but do any of you guys have experience with cheaper options? I'm particularly looking at the cheaper Nikes. Adidas historically run too narrow for me, and I'm not sure I have faith in the AF shoes.

ScratchAndSniff posted:

Sport fencers do this too. It's frowned upon in tournaments, though.

I've had to red card this one guy multiple times for grabbing his opponent's foil with his off-hand.

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks


I use an overpriced pair of d'artagnans (would not recommend), but one of the best guys I fence with swears by his cheap squash shoes from sports authority.

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

dupersaurus posted:

My dearly loved neon yellow Balestras have finally bit the dust. I'd get another pair, but do any of you guys have experience with cheaper options? I'm particularly looking at the cheaper Nikes. Adidas historically run too narrow for me, and I'm not sure I have faith in the AF shoes.


I've had to red card this one guy multiple times for grabbing his opponent's foil with his off-hand.

Jesucristo you ref an awful sport

BirdOfPlay
Feb 19, 2012

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Jesucristo you ref an awful sport

All sports are awful to ref, believing otherwise is naive. Only ref if you want to see the absolute dredges of the sport.

That said, Summer Nats just ended, and I'm already getting emails for tourneys for the upcoming season. Oh well, they can't keep me at a 6 forever! Right? Of course they can.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


BirdOfPlay posted:

All sports are awful to ref, believing otherwise is naive.
he meant that at some point in history, fencing changed from a thing where you are encouraged to grab a dude's sword and punch him in the head (good) to one where you are penalized for it (bad)

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


As a rookie, I have been doing mostly basics for a month now, but they will throw in an advanced move at the end, usually in a bind, where you turn the sword upside down, let go with one hand, grab it again and t urn and pull t he other guy, sometimes ending up with his sword in your hand. (this is hems) I never see the other guys doing this when I watch the big boys spar after hours, but it is pretty fun.

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


thewireguy posted:

As a rookie, I have been doing mostly basics for a month now, but they will throw in an advanced move at the end, usually in a bind, where you turn the sword upside down, let go with one hand, grab it again and t urn and pull t he other guy, sometimes ending up with his sword in your hand. (this is hems) I never see the other guys doing this when I watch the big boys spar after hours, but it is pretty fun.

A lot of techniques that work from the bind are impossible to do with blunt weapons which is a huge shame really as I really want to dent some fuckers mask with my buckler

thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Rabhadh posted:

A lot of techniques that work from the bind are impossible to do with blunt weapons which is a huge shame really as I really want to dent some fuckers mask with my buckler

I want a shield bad. I read a book, fiction, not a manual or anything, where the hero was instructed to put the shield in his dominant hand so that he would focus on defense first. I thought that was profound.

Rabhadh
Aug 26, 2007


I'm obvs not an expert here but I would have assumed that if you treat your shield as a purely defensive thing you're wasting a load of potential

ScratchAndSniff
Sep 28, 2008

This game stinks


HEY GAL posted:

he meant that at some point in history, fencing changed from a thing where you are encouraged to grab a dude's sword and punch him in the head (good) to one where you are penalized for it (bad)

Does HEMA or whatever really let you punch each other? I thought most of the historical stuff had more like a limited form of wrestling.

Would seriously like to see a vid where a swordfight ends in a knockout.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Not in a tournament, no. But in the original context, it's anything goes.


I will strike you so hard in the groin
That all of your strength will be taken away.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Siivola posted:

I will strike you so hard in the groin
That all of your strength will be taken away.

Sounds like epee versus someone with bad aim. It's funny, though - for all the safety gear we use, I don't know any guy who wears a cup.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Jesucristo you ref an awful sport

No, he's just a moron.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


Siivola posted:

Not in a tournament, no. But in the original context, it's anything goes.


I will strike you so hard in the groin
That all of your strength will be taken away.

"Taken away so quickly," look at the si p/oi there (scribal abbreviation for presta)

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jul 9, 2015

Rodrigo Diaz
Apr 16, 2007

Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

dupersaurus posted:

No, he's just a moron.

HEY GAL posted:

he meant that at some point in history, fencing changed from a thing where you are encouraged to grab a dude's sword and punch him in the head (good) to one where you are penalized for it (bad)

This is correct, though not "encouraged" in a general sense, just encouraged under the right circumstances.


thewireguy posted:

I want a shield bad. I read a book, fiction, not a manual or anything, where the hero was instructed to put the shield in his dominant hand so that he would focus on defense first. I thought that was profound.

That doesn't make any sense to me. The dominant hand is your weapon hand, so really it would just make him less effective and/or teach him ambidexterity maybe?


Rabhadh posted:

I'm obvs not an expert here but I would have assumed that if you treat your shield as a purely defensive thing you're wasting a load of potential

This is correct. I.33 shows striking with the buckler, and Stephen Hand has shown a pretty good interpretation of attacking with a centre-gripped shield, some of which probably translates over into the flatter kite shapes and other strapped forms.

WoodrowSkillson
Feb 24, 2005






Rodrigo Diaz posted:

This is correct, though not "encouraged" in a general sense, just encouraged under the right circumstances.


That doesn't make any sense to me. The dominant hand is your weapon hand, so really it would just make him less effective and/or teach him ambidexterity maybe?


This is correct. I.33 shows striking with the buckler, and Stephen Hand has shown a pretty good interpretation of attacking with a centre-gripped shield, some of which probably translates over into the flatter kite shapes and other strapped forms.

I guess as like a drill to teach you that if you are good with the shield, relatively simple attacks might work? no one actually fought like that.

curious lump
Sep 13, 2014

by zen death robot


If you wanted to go defense with a shield, you can just shift so that your left foot (and thus your off hand) is forward, which makes it easier (?) to defend, and keeps your weapon in your main hand.

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thewireguy
Jul 2, 2013


Rodrigo Diaz posted:

This is correct, though not "encouraged" in a general sense, just encouraged under the right circumstances.


That doesn't make any sense to me. The dominant hand is your weapon hand, so really it would just make him less effective and/or teach him ambidexterity maybe?


This is correct. I.33 shows striking with the buckler, and Stephen Hand has shown a pretty good interpretation of attacking with a centre-gripped shield, some of which probably translates over into the flatter kite shapes and other strapped forms.

Yeah ambidextrousness. I try that out regularly. I have a fear of losing my hand, maybe star wars did this. Also, the green belt in judo was trying the throes on the other side, so I see how that is valuable.

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