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  • Locked thread
ShadowGlass
Nov 13, 2012



Chili posted:

Yes. It was purposeful, but not informed as such.

At the time, I thought it was a mistake. But I've since seen the light, and recognize how stupid that is.

Wait, you're voting Rarity again. So basically it was like this:

- You voted Rarity for a stupid reason
- You realized it's stupid and unvoted
- Then you found a different reason to vote Rarity (which is that she can't possibly have a read on Pig?)

My vote stays.

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Abyssal Squid
Jul 23, 2003



So has the case on Rarity moved beyond "she said a thing, it's possible she wasn't being truthful so let's squint at it really hard and maybe we can figure out if it's a lie without any other context" yet? Other than CPig, who's offering the very helpful "she's scum."

Sandwolf
Jan 23, 2007

i'll be harpo



Abyssal Squid posted:

So has the case on Rarity moved beyond "she said a thing, it's possible she wasn't being truthful so let's squint at it really hard and maybe we can figure out if it's a lie without any other context" yet? Other than CPig, who's offering the very helpful "she's scum."

Have you not been reading or did you genuinely miss the case on Rarity?

Abyssal Squid
Jul 23, 2003



The whole last page looks like arguing in circles about the meaning of her saying "I'm Hadvar," if there's more to it than that then yes I missed it.

Meinberg
Oct 9, 2011


Voting for Rarity because of the flavor claim, whether true or false, is pretty scrub tier play, to be honest. If there's another case in there, I'm not seeing it, so if you're voting for Rarity for a reason besides her claim, then please illuminate.

While my initial vote on Chili was a joke vote, his behavior has made me feel sufficiently confident in leaving my vote where it is.

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

College kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe

ShadowGlass posted:

Wait, you're voting Rarity again. So basically it was like this:

- You voted Rarity for a stupid reason
- You realized it's stupid and unvoted
- Then you found a different reason to vote Rarity (which is that she can't possibly have a read on Pig?)

My vote stays.

Yes.

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

College kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe

Sandwolf posted:

Have you not been reading or did you genuinely miss the case on Rarity?

Yeah.... I'm a wee bit troubled by this as well, but I'm not seeing scum as much ignorant.

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

College kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe

Meinberg posted:

Voting for Rarity because of the flavor claim, whether true or false, is pretty scrub tier play, to be honest. If there's another case in there, I'm not seeing it, so if you're voting for Rarity for a reason besides her claim, then please illuminate.

While my initial vote on Chili was a joke vote, his behavior has made me feel sufficiently confident in leaving my vote where it is.

Except that I haven't done that thing you said, and I did make a case, albeit minuscule. I mentioned, specifically, that I thought Rarity was scum not for that first stupid thing but for a later scummy thing. That did happen. Whether or not you agree with the reason is a different matter.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

Asiina posted:

These posts are bad, but I don't know if it's "new person saying a dumb thing and then hedging because they're new" bad or "new person saying a dumb thing and getting scolded by the scum team" bad.

Trying to hang Byers because he mimicked Rarity who might have been setting up her fakeclaim is a serious stretch of a case. It's pretty much unbelievable.

The immediately going back on it is bad too.

If you're going to suggest your dumb thing, then stick with your dumb thing. If not then why even post it in the first place?

I think both the suggestions and the immediate hedging of it makes him look bad.

Would vote.

I really dislike this post from Asiina. It starts with a "hey, this might be newbie town or newbie scum, I can't tell", but finishes with a "would vote". It reads to me like she is definite on her opinion from the start, but wants an excuse for when Narc flips town.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

Byers2142 posted:

You agree on flavorful posting from the grave, but what about my Ecco case? I think there's something there, she was just so sure when she went after Rarity, and she's filled in the why for that surety after the fact in a manner that seems scummy.

I think this case is okay, but not amazing. Also, I have a gentleman's agreement with Ecco and my side of the agreement is to not immediately assume Ecco is scum on D1.

fiery_valkyrie
Mar 26, 2003

I'm proud of you, Bender. Sure, you lost. You lost bad. But the important thing is I beat up someone who hurt my feelings in high school.

Chili posted:

Oh. Cool. Now I can just vote you because you're scum, and not because of the bullshit earlier.

##vote Rarity

I do not believe that you either have, or even believe you have the wherewithal to make the distinction that your claiming between a guy amusing himself and actively distracting people.

Also, you're qualifying oh "hitting my gut hard" is a really good way of putting down a strong opinion but still only base it on your subjectivity.

Rarity is scum 1A

I agree with this.

votefinder
Jul 6, 2010

scoop scoop


Votecount for Day 1

Chili (5): Meinberg, fiery_valkyrie, Abyssal Squid, Good Sir, ShadowGlass
Rarity (4): EccoRaven, CapitalistPig, Sandwolf, Chili, Chili, CapitalistPig, Chili, CapitalistPig
Abyssal Squid (2): Glockenapfel, Epsilon Plus, Epsilon Plus, Epsilon Plus, ShadowGlass, Asiina, Asiina, ShadowGlass
CapitalistPig (1): Rarity
EccoRaven (1): CapitalistPig, CapitalistPig, Byers2142
Byers2142 (0): Asiina, Glockenapfel, Glockenapfel, Chili, Asiina, Chili
Opopanax (0): CapitalistPig, CapitalistPig
Meinberg (0): EccoRaven, EccoRaven, Chili, Chili
Asiina (0): CapitalistPig, CapitalistPig, CapitalistPig, CapitalistPig
Epsilon Plus (0): CapitalistPig, CapitalistPig

Not Voting (6): AnonymousNarcotics, Asiina, AXE COP, Chic Trombone, Gabriel Pope, Opopanax

With 19 alive, it's 10 votes to lynch. The current deadline is February 18th, 2015 at 8 p.m. EST -- that's in about 11 hours, 39 minutes.

Straight White Shark
May 16, 2009



Fun Shoe

fiery_valkyrie posted:

I really dislike this post from Asiina. It starts with a "hey, this might be newbie town or newbie scum, I can't tell", but finishes with a "would vote". It reads to me like she is definite on her opinion from the start, but wants an excuse for when Narc flips town.

It seems pretty reasonable to me Those posts are pretty bad and the rest of AnonymousNarcotics's posting is really low content, so I'm definitely watching him. I'm re-reading Asiina's posts but I'm not really seeing anything that jumps out at me.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Did anyone actually explain the case on Chili? I wanna vote for it if it's good. I am still ok voting for Rarity, and I'm not really going to vote for anyone else who has votes right now.

fiery_valkyrie posted:

I really dislike this post from Asiina. It starts with a "hey, this might be newbie town or newbie scum, I can't tell", but finishes with a "would vote". It reads to me like she is definite on her opinion from the start, but wants an excuse for when Narc flips town.

I agree with this post as well and would vote Asiina. I am wondering who else would vote Asiina because I think this is like the third time someone has brought her up.

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

College kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe

I'm pretty sure it's because I came in hot.

Straight White Shark
May 16, 2009



Fun Shoe

EccoRaven posted:

Did anyone actually explain the case on Chili? I wanna vote for it if it's good.

It started because he did this:

Chili posted:

Good Christ, I got town again. Itís literally been over 3 years since Iíve drawn scum.

And because he's been riding Rarity pretty hard. Other than that I'm not really seeing it.

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

College kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe

If I get lynched today, it's whatever. Just get Rarity next.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EccoRaven posted:

I agree with this post as well and would vote Asiina. I am wondering who else would vote Asiina because I think this is like the third time someone has brought her up.

I would, but like most everyone else it's more guts than anything specific I can point to.

Chili posted:

I'm pretty sure it's because I came in hot.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Gabriel Pope posted:

Other than that I'm not really seeing it.

Yeah me neither.

Chili posted:

If I get lynched today, it's whatever. Just get Rarity next.

Honestly I'm softening on Rarity a little bit. I'm interested in moving on if there's something better out there.

Though it's not looking like there is.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EccoRaven posted:

Honestly I'm softening on Rarity a little bit. I'm interested in moving on if there's something better out there.

Though it's not looking like there is.

Given the two-team make-up of the game, I toyed briefly with the idea of no lynching, but I think it makes even less sense here than normal.

Here's my top three right now. Ecco, because I feel that her jump on Rarity was due to out of thread knowledge. Asiina, because she's just not right this game, like her stated opinions are not her true opinions or something. And Opop because he's being snipe-y in posting, looking for things to make one-off comments on that have no real bearing on the game.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Byers2142 posted:

Here's my top three right now. Ecco, because I feel that her jump on Rarity was due to out of thread knowledge.
How do you respond to all the very reasonable and sensible explanations for why I believe the mafias have mod-provided fakeclaims? Sure, you can say I am making up my reasons for voting Rarity going along - though I'd disagree - but how can you say the setup doesn't make mod-provided fakeclaims really obvious?

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

College kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe

EccoRaven posted:

Honestly I'm softening on Rarity a little bit. I'm interested in moving on if there's something better out there.

Though it's not looking like there is.

I don't see a reason to soften. The only other player that's bothering me right now is Gabriel. I'll consider his/her posting for a bit and make a decision there soon.

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

College kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe

EccoRaven posted:

How do you respond to all the very reasonable and sensible explanations for why I believe the mafias have mod-provided fakeclaims? Sure, you can say I am making up my reasons for voting Rarity going along - though I'd disagree - but how can you say the setup doesn't make mod-provided fakeclaims really obvious?

Well hold on a second. If the mod is going to say that flavor may provide some game related information... that may very well mean that the scum don't necessarily have fake claims. It could be that the mod is intending for scum/anti-town players to overcome their potentially problematic flavor and has equipped them with tools to help with that. They could have janitored flips or something. Who knows?

I wouldn't bank on the scum having fake claims.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EccoRaven posted:

How do you respond to all the very reasonable and sensible explanations for why I believe the mafias have mod-provided fakeclaims? Sure, you can say I am making up my reasons for voting Rarity going along - though I'd disagree - but how can you say the setup doesn't make mod-provided fakeclaims really obvious?

Because I don't believe it did; in most flavor-heavy games that have provided fakeclaims to scum, the OP will say that. This OP did the opposite, saying to make flavor claims at our own risk. Therefore, I'd have not expected provided fakeclaims.

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Chili posted:

Well hold on a second. If the mod is going to say that flavor may provide some game related information... that may very well mean that the scum don't necessarily have fake claims. It could be that the mod is intending for scum/anti-town players to overcome their potentially problematic flavor and has equipped them with tools to help with that. They could have janitored flips or something. Who knows?

I wouldn't bank on the scum having fake claims.

See? It's not obvious, but Ecco immediately went "yep, fakeclaims" and then backfilled the reasoning for why a town player would automatically expect fakeclaims. That reads like prior knowledge to me.

Chili
Jan 23, 2004

College kids ain't shit


Fun Shoe

Byers2142 posted:

See? It's not obvious, but Ecco immediately went "yep, fakeclaims" and then backfilled the reasoning for why a town player would automatically expect fakeclaims. That reads like prior knowledge to me.

That's actually an interesting take.

Need to think on this one too.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Byers2142 posted:

Because I don't believe it did; in most flavor-heavy games that have provided fakeclaims to scum, the OP will say that. This OP did the opposite, saying to make flavor claims at our own risk. Therefore, I'd have not expected provided fakeclaims.

What you're saying essentially is the mod is telling us not to claim our flavor because doing so hurts the scum. That's so bizarre and dumb.

Here is a Primer on Flavor in a Mafia Game

Mods often use flavor to make their game more fun. But when using preexisting flavor, doling out who is "scum" and who is "town" can be problematic. If you keep too consistent to the story, with the protagonists being town and antagonists scum, then when people flavor claim it becomes too easy to figure out the setup. A counter to that is mods will often make a "good guy" bad or a "bad guy" good and warn us "don't trust flavor!"

But in a game like Skyrim, with no clear good or evil factions, there isn't that problem. The problem is going to be claiming someone who is a member of a faction, when that faction happens to be, in this game, scum. It would be nonsense for a mod to not give their players fakeclaims in that kind of game. Flavor matters in this game. The mod clearly didn't just make, say, Astrid town and some random villager a member of the Dark Brotherhood, otherwise the mod would have said "don't trust flavor it's just flavor." So, every scum player must be part of their respective faction. The way to avoid outing themselves is by giving them a fakeclaim.

It's really actually quite sensible, and I'm sorry your brain didn't make these assumptions in the first few seconds of the game.

Good Sir
Oct 19, 2008


The recent few pages have made me soften on my vote for Chili and consider Rarity. Also, I want to read over this case against Ecco but to me, at the moment, it seems like a real stretch. I do agree, I don't see any reason to think there are fakeclaims, rather if anything the OP seems to point in a completely different direction. Ecco - Have you been in a game previously that had fakeclaims? Is this some sort of post-mafia-stress induced anxiety?

In the next couple hours I'm going to go back and re-read the entire thread then present what I think is my "best" argument which, being day one, won't be much more than a guess. Also, I been reading up on my Skyrim lore, and better understand my flavour and some of the other players' as well. I now understand why the first three or four pages of this thread didn't make sense.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


As an aside, that the mod gave the town as a whole flavor warnings, instead of just telling the scum privately, tells us that the flavor also probably hurts us in claiming it. Perhaps something like, Nord players can be recruited into the Stormcloaks, or whatever.

Chili posted:

It could be that the mod is intending for scum/anti-town players to overcome their potentially problematic flavor and has equipped them with tools to help with that. They could have janitored flips or something. Who knows?
The easiest tool, though, is a fakeclaim - and in a source material with hundreds of characters, finding some random villager somewhere would be really easy.

Sure, maybe the mafia have really problematic flavor, and if we all massclaimed day 1 the mafia would be in dire straights. Maybe the mafia have problematic flavor but they can janitor flips or steal other people's role characters or who the heck knows. But making a fakeclaim for the scum is just so much easier.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Good Sir posted:

Also, I want to read over this case against Ecco but to me, at the moment, it seems like a real stretch. I do agree, I don't see any reason to think there are fakeclaims, rather if anything the OP seems to point in a completely different direction.

These points contradict themselves. If you think I'm crazy about the fakeclaims thing then the case against me isn't that much of a stretch, especially for a day 1 case.

Good Sir posted:

Also, I been reading up on my Skyrim lore, and better understand my flavour and some of the other players' as well. I now understand why the first three or four pages of this thread didn't make sense.
I have already volunteered to help with that so if you have any questions just post them and I'll get to it~

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EccoRaven posted:

Here is a Primer on Flavor in a Mafia Game

Yes, I know why fakeclaims may be given, but I disagree that they are required. I have played in flavor-heavy games where fakeclaims were not given to scum. I also feel that you do not believe as strongly about this as the post makes it seem you do. You've realized that your blunder is only explainable as town if you can say unequivocally that all flavor heavy games having a fakeclaim is required and a natural assumption all town players should make. Your last line stands out:

EccoRaven posted:

It's really actually quite sensible, and I'm sorry your brain didn't make these assumptions in the first few seconds of the game.

You can't attack the argument because, as evidenced with Chili and me, it's not an immediate reaction. So you attack the players that don't make that jump as being slow in thought, specifically me here but all of the others by association.

I stand 100% behind what I said. You made a jump based on scum knowledge. You are now trying to make it look like a jump town should have made after the fact. You are scum.

Retro Futurist
Aug 8, 2007

Yesterday's Tomorrow,
Today!




Byers2142 posted:

And Opop because he's being snipe-y in posting, looking for things to make one-off comments on that have no real bearing on the game.

Hi Byers nice to meet you

Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


Opopanax posted:

Hi Byers nice to meet you

Yeah, I'm tired of meta excuses for scummy play. I'm tired of meta arguments in genera; I feel they've come to over-dominate the game.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


Byers2142 posted:

Yes, I know why fakeclaims may be given, but I disagree that they are required.
I suppose they aren't required, but it's the single easiest way to avoid running into flavor problems. Again, why would the mod say "beware in claiming flavor!" if claiming flavor for us townies is actually beneficial??

Byers2142 posted:

I also feel that you do not believe as strongly about this as the post makes it seem you do. You've realized that your blunder is only explainable as town if you can say unequivocally that all flavor heavy games having a fakeclaim is required and a natural assumption all town players should make.
In the very post you're quoting I provide the second most common solution to flavor problems that doesn't require a fakeclaim.

Again, Byers, if you're right - if the scum don't have fakeclaims and their flavor is actually really problematic if we know the scum flavor - then it's in the town's interest to do an effective mass flavor claim day 1, since then the scum is left outed. That is, the mod is telling us "don't claim flavor! It can hurt you!" and is probably lying because he's too lazy to find a handful of random villagers. That's so bizarre and dumb.

Byers2142 posted:

So you attack the players that don't make that jump as being slow in thought, specifically me here but all of the others by association.
Nah that's because I'm a jerk, I call people dumb all the time in mafia games, it's one of my flaws that, when I look back on this game a while from now I will regret, but not enough to actually change my ways.

Straight White Shark
May 16, 2009



Fun Shoe

EXAKT Science posted:

RULES
  • Flavor will likely offer clues to role and/or alignment, so be VERY careful about making flavor arguments or claiming your flavor. If you really want to, you can, but don't say you weren't warned.

It sounds like it could go one way or the other on fakeclaims. I suspect the "clues to role" is the real motivation behind the warning, as I'm guessing town power roles have very obvious flavor.

CapitalistPig
Nov 3, 2005

You turn the corner and see a greenskinned fuckmidget.
Roll for initiative.

I bet the two scum teams are The Imperials and The Stormcloaks

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

fiery_valkyrie posted:

I really dislike this post from Asiina. It starts with a "hey, this might be newbie town or newbie scum, I can't tell", but finishes with a "would vote". It reads to me like she is definite on her opinion from the start, but wants an excuse for when Narc flips town.

You don't have to be 100% on a case to vote. I'm not sure if they were just bad newbie town posts, but they were really scummy.

I'm trying to give new people the benefit of the doubt though, so I won't vote for him today.

CapitalistPig
Nov 3, 2005

You turn the corner and see a greenskinned fuckmidget.
Roll for initiative.

Also, Update, I went to whiterun and just finished looting the castle/getting to the part where you go off with Irildra or whatever the gently caress her name is to go fight the first dragon.

EccoRaven
Aug 15, 2004

there is only one hell:
the one we live in now


I mean let's reread this warning:

da OP posted:

Flavor will likely offer clues to role and/or alignment, so be VERY careful about making flavor arguments or claiming your flavor. If you really want to, you can, but don't say you weren't warned.

I could see how someone could read this and think, "yeah, the mafias don't have fakeclaims, it says right there flavor is a clue for alignment." But I see this and think, because it was posted publicly, it's not directed specifically towards the mafia - it's for everyone in the game. It's telling the town that flavor matters. This is in contrast to a game where flavor doesn't matter - an X-Men game where Professor X is scum, for instance. In that kind of game nobody needs fakeclaims because there is a disconnect between source alignment and game alignment.

In a game where flavor matters, the solution to scum being up against a wall with incriminating flavor is to give them fakeclaims. It's a really easy thing to do.

I concede it's possible we are in a game where the scum are all Dark Brotherhood vs. Thieves Guild (or some other opposing pairs), and the scum have no fakeclaims, so as soon as someone says they're Astrid it's as good as scumclaiming, and the scum can't lie about their identities without potentially being counterclaimed or making a claim that doesn't fit with the flavor at all. It's certainly possible.

But the alternative - that Exakt just gave them fakeclaims - is just so much more sensible.

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Byers2142
May 5, 2011

Imagine I said something deep here...


EccoRaven posted:

In the very post you're quoting I provide the second most common solution to flavor problems that doesn't require a fakeclaim.

Again, Byers, if you're right - if the scum don't have fakeclaims and their flavor is actually really problematic if we know the scum flavor - then it's in the town's interest to do an effective mass flavor claim day 1, since then the scum is left outed. That is, the mod is telling us "don't claim flavor! It can hurt you!" and is probably lying because he's too lazy to find a handful of random villagers. That's so bizarre and dumb.

This is not my point. My case is that scum apparently do have fakeclaims, which you knew because you're scum. So you cased Rarity for using her provided fakeclaim, and then realized as town you would have no knowledge that there are definitely fakeclaims in this game. So you've backfilled a reason a town player might make the assumption you made.

I have no interest in arguing the worth of fakeclaims in games right now, as it's a distraction from the matter at hand. It's irrelevant to my case, which is below.

Fact: even in flavor heavy games, fakeclaims are not always provided.

Fact: you immediately acted as though fakeclaims were in play.

Supposition: you knew there were because in your scum role PM, you have a fakeclaim.

Supposition: everything you've posted about fakeclaims since has been backfilling a reason for town players to act as you did.

Two facts, two suppositions. None of this requires a primer on flavor or any of the other smoke you're throwing up right now.

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