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Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!
I'm surprised to learn so many people don't like the Wt/Con system.

Sure it's not so amazing on its own, but I think that having real tradeoffs to consider in 4 categories (Damage, accuracy, effective speed, and price) is WAY more interesting than the 3 you get in most later FEs. Especially since price stops mattering fast in most FEs and so does accuracy. That ultimately leads to only damage left to consider, which is really boring.

I also think some of you Con and Wt opponents may not have fully thought through the tactical implications. Being able to voluntarily slow your own units down at just about any time has HUGE utility! You can use it to ensure a high level unit only weakens enemies without killing them. You can use it to prevent a powerful but fragile unit at a chokepoint from mowing down 6 enemies and then dying. Instead it'll just hit one once and then stop. You can use it to decrease your Avoid so as to create injuries for your healers to level up on. I could go on.


I do agree that it's a problem that almost all female units have lousy Con. Relatedly, almost all female units are in low Con classes like myrmidons and clerics and pegasus knights, but even within those classes they're usually worse off than their male counterparts.

At least for physical units, males usually have better stat caps too- for singleplayer anyway. On the other hand, female magic users do often enjoy some advantages in max magic power, which is even more important than max Str since it lets you do things like use staves at massive range.

Melth fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 11, 2015

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Mzbundifund
Nov 5, 2011

I'm afraid so.

Sorites posted:

The big differences with Advanced Wars are unlimited units (given sufficient resources to create them) and damage scaled to HP. A unit at 2/10 HP only does roughly 20% damage, for example. So combats are largely about getting the first hit.

There's not much counterkilling in Advanced Wars unless you have a giant tank and they have crappy infantry. And in that case, they likely won't attack you at all.

Another big difference is ranges. In FE a long-range tome or ballista is rare, in Advance wars large maps and units with as much as 6 range indirect fire are common and expected parts of everyday strategy, so the ability to be attacked by units not one or two squares away from you is a major part of tactics. Since almost all of the damage is dealt on the attacker's turn, the bulk of the strategy is about luring enemies into killing zones and dealing devastating strikes to prevent enemies from being able to attack you well on their turn, as opposed to setting up juggernaut units and luring enemies into counter-kill chains like in FE.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



Almost all female characters in the GBA games are classes like myrmidon, cleric, pegasus knight, and archer/nomad in the first place. It's very rare for them to be a more traditionally beefy class. I can think of four: Echidna in FE6, Vaida and Isadora in FE7, and Amelia in FE8. I guess you might count Sophia and Niime in FE6, since they account for nearly all of the female druids across all of the GBA games combined and druids are technically the tank of the magic classes.

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!

Manatee Cannon posted:

Almost all female characters in the GBA games are classes like myrmidon, cleric, pegasus knight, and archer/nomad in the first place. It's very rare for them to be a more traditionally beefy class. I can think of four: Echidna in FE6, Vaida and Isadora in FE7, and Amelia in FE8. I guess you might count Sophia and Niime in FE6, since they account for nearly all of the female druids across all of the GBA games combined and druids are technically the tank of the magic classes.

There's also Miledy, same class as Vaida. And maybe kinda sorta Eirika as a cavalier?

Notty
Jun 3, 2010
Don't forget Wendy.

...actually, no, nevermind, best to forget Wendy.

Lord Ephraim
Feb 22, 2008

That's one way to get ahead in life, but nothing beats an axe to the face.
Vaida has the highest Con of any female unit of the GBA games and ties Cormag for largest flying unit. She must be made of pure muscle to be twice the size of Guy. Shame about her 14 speed at so late into the game.

Dr. Buttass
Aug 12, 2013

AWFUL SOMETHING

Krumbsthumbs posted:

since her rescue is a whopping 8, which is terrible for a mounty.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is story and gameplay working together. Judging by her supports only the frailest and most desperate are even going to put up with her.

Dire Wombat
Oct 29, 2011

In this world, there is no truth. The truth is made later on and overwrites what comes before it. Real truth doesn't exist anywhere.

Lord Ephraim posted:

Vaida has the highest Con of any female unit of the GBA games and ties Cormag for largest flying unit. She must be made of pure muscle to be twice the size of Guy. Shame about her 14 speed at so late into the game.

Vaida is totally respectable on Victory or Death, since a lot of enemies are really goddamn slow. That's really her only good chapter, though, since her availability is so bad. Her speed only really hurts her during the boss rush in the last chapter. Also her supports are great and she makes the pegasisters look like twelve-year-olds, so I end up using her every time.

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!

Dire Wombat posted:

Vaida is totally respectable on Victory or Death, since a lot of enemies are really goddamn slow. That's really her only good chapter, though, since her availability is so bad. Her speed only really hurts her during the boss rush in the last chapter. Also her supports are great and she makes the pegasisters look like twelve-year-olds, so I end up using her every time.

Vaida wrecks just about everything just about everywhere. Wyvern riders don't fear archers, so she's perfectly viable on Sands of Time. And with her swords she can take on the berserker swarm of 32x- or the normal mix of enemies there on HNM. Hands down her best chapter though is Unfulfilled Heart. I mean, she could probably wipe out the enemies there singlehandedly.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

Fionordequester posted:

Personally, for me, I am in the camp that the Con system itself is great...but the Con numbers they gave to the characters are oftentimes not chosen well. For example, even Lucius has 6 Con...and yet Lyn only has 5? And Canas has 7? So am I to take it that Lucius and Canas, of all people, could actually beat Lyn in an arm wrestling match?! Or even Isadora, for that matter?

I mean seriously, I know women's muscles generally aren't as thick or as heavy as men, but they aren't THAT much smaller! There's not way that someone in the military, like Lyn, should ever be able to carry any less than a book nerd like Canas :argh: ! So if the Con system seems bad, it's not. It's what they DID with it that's bad.

No that would be strength, which neither of them have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF-YeWnIJfU

But even then, it wouldn't be so unrealistic for them to beat Lyn at Arm wrestling. As that video shows, someone who won a Worlds Strongest Woman competition can still lose 2/3 arm wrestling matches to random blokes.

Notty posted:

Don't forget Wendy.

...actually, no, nevermind, best to forget Wendy.

Considering that her portrait in the array is one of the furthest back, there's a very good chance that yes, she was completely not a character until near the end of the game. Hell most of the boss and enemy portraits go before hers.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



I actually did think of Wendy, but I thought she was in a different game. Miledy completely slipped my mind, though. Eirika is functionally a swordmaster that trades the crit chance for a horse, or at least that's how I think of her.

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!


Well last chapter was the first gimmickless one in a while. Now itís time for one with ALL the annoying gimmicks! This map has it all: hidden secrets which you fail your run if you donít know about, items which you must steal, fog of war, horrible terrain, enemies optimized for the horrible terrain, a secret level with REALLY hard to meet requirements, horrible enemy reinforcements HIDDEN by the fog, absolutely lethal moving bosses, and ridiculously low turn and character limits.
Itís also pretty much pure filler with no redeeming features whatsoever. We arenít fighting anyone important and thereís no new character or setting development from the battle, we just randomly fight some WEIRD bandits to help a guy who didnít need the help.


Chapter Summary:
Following Utherís cryptic advice, Hector and Eliwood walk hundreds of miles out of their way and wander into the Nabata Desert: one of the most inhospitable and dangerous parts of the continent with no idea who or what theyíre looking for. They come across a man completely owning a giant army of bandits led by two weirdoes and decide to help him out. It turns out he can direct them to the man theyíre actually looking for, so everything works out.




Once again, Hector is kind and helpful, offering to carry Nils when the latter is having trouble keeping up. Once again, everyone acts like heís a jerk all the time. This is getting really old. Itís the kind of thing Iíd expect from a pointless filler chapter.




Ok, the picture is kind of cute Iíll admit.




Really Eliwood and Ninianís budding romance is the only thing I like about this chapter.




Meanwhile, in a hidden underground lair, a mysterious old man with epic hair narrates these events to Louise there and then mutters some cryptic ruminations about fate and unintended consequences. This guy is one of my favorite characters, but this isnít his best scene.

Also, have you noticed that that background is EXACTLY the same one as Nergalís mysterious hideout? I say the two of them are actually living in the same place, but they just never happen to run into each other since the place is so huge and they always teleport around instead of walking anywhere.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IawpkSejkQI
And now for something stupid! Paul and Jasmine are a pair of absolutely bizarre bandit twins trying to mug one of the greatest wizards on the continent. Surprisingly, he doesnít just hand over his mysterious treasure which heís been searching for for weeks.







In one of the less serious FE titles, these guys wouldnít be so out of place. Indeed, many other FEs have characters who are basically clones of these guys. Paul and Jasmine are the gold standard of weirdo bandit twins, but they donít really fit with the tone of 7. And again, this level is pointless and so are they.


Battle Preparations & The Map:




Wow, thatís complicated! So the first thing to understand about this map is that there are a ton of secret items on it. Each can be found by having a unit end its own turn (by waiting, attacking, using a vulnerary, etc. but NOT by being dropped into a square) in the area corresponding to that item. You have approximately a 9% chance of actually finding the item if you end your turn in the item find area, unless the unit ending its turn is a thief. In that case itís 100%. So yeah, you need either a thief or a LOT of turns to beat this chapter.

This is on top of 2 very valuable items that must be stolen.

So thereís a ton to do right there, but things are about to get complicated. See, that sandy ground is HORRIBLY hard to move through. It grants a tiny avoid bonus, but itís even harder than forests to move in. Non-nomad cavalry have a particularly lousy time in it, and even nomads are hurt. Picture that as an entire map of forests which grant no bonuses. Yeah, itís an air map. But it turns out that magic users- other than ones on horses like Priscilla- can move through the sands at full speed for reasons never really fully explained. So itís an air and mage map. And guess what the enemy has tons of?

The wyvern riders have more or less been holding steady in power but my pegasus knights have gotten better and I now have an uber-wyvern of my own, so the air war isnít as hopeless as it might look at first. Still- particularly given the significant number of enemy archers- itís going to be rough.

It doesnít help that thereís going to be a steady stream of additional wyverns in the early turns.

Now all of that would be pretty bad, but manageable. But things are about to get much, much worseÖ




Bam! Fog of war out of nowhere, only in Hectorís Hard Mode! And over there in the top left is Pent, a non-recruitable green unit of jaw-dropping power. Heíll solo this whole level or perhaps almost do so and then be killed by one of the bosses. On Eliwoodís story he started much, much closer. With Ninian and a good flying unit, you could grab him on turn 1. Now thatís absolutely impossible before turn 3 or so, which means heís going to have time to slaughter lots of enemies and deprive you of their XP.

And thatís the deal-breaker. See, if you want to get the sidequest then you must get 700 or more XP. And any unit Pent kills is XP lost forever. Itís really hard to get 700 XP here at the best of times without spending many turns grinding out staff or dance XP. On HHM not only do enemies give you much, much less XP at this point, but Pent starts further away so heíll kill many more of the enemy. Itís going to be darned hard to manage this.



Objective: Kill all enemies (and keep Pent alive).
Secondary Objective: Find the Ocean Seal in the desert
Secondary Objective: Find the Body Ring in the desert
Secondary Objective: Find the Filaís Might in the desert
Secondary Objective: Find the Eclipse in the desert
Secondary Objective: Find the Light Brand in the desert
Secondary Objective: Find the Hero Crest in the desert
Secondary Objective: Steal the Guiding Ring from the enemy mage
Secondary Objective: Steal the White Gem from Jasmine
Secondary Objective: Talk to Hawkeye with Hector to recruit him early.
Secondary Objective: Get 700 or more total XP in order to unlock the sidequest
Reinforcements: Hidden by fog, but something like 8 total wyvern riders will spawn in the top left and left bottom in the early turns. Then theyíll give way to shamans and mages. The numbers arenít huge, but the unit types and location are a major problem.
Turn Limit: 9. Impossible. Flat out. You cannot get 700 XP, get all the items, and win in this time limit with this many units (Well maybe with low level but insanely stat-blessed units and massive RNG manipulation, but that doesnít count). For a single thief to get the items on his own- even if there was no movement to do or enemies to fight- would take 8 turns on its own. Even with mass air rescue-dropping of one or two thieves assisted by Ninian, youíd have to spend more than 9 turns to collect them all. And thatís leaving aside having to fight an uphill battle against the enemy forces and commit most of your best units to capturing Pent early on. Think of it as a zero requirement chapter. You auto-fail the time limit, but your tactical skill will control how much you fail by.
Units Allowed: Hector + 7. Argh. Just one more would make this so much more feasible. Just one more mage, just one more thief, just one more ANYTHING. This is what really prevents you from succeeding within the tiny time limit. The limit is brutal, so make every pick count.
Units Brought:
1) Hector. Required but useless. No, worse than useless. Heís level 20 now: any damage he inflicts or kill he gets is an XP drain on a chapter where I canít afford that. And heís always bad against magic users, which this chapter is full of. At least I can use him to hold Pent and recruit Hawkeye.
2) Ninian. Functionally required. There is NOT enough XP on this chapter to get to the 700 goal. But dancing is free 10 XP every turn Ėor 20 with Ninisís grace. So sheíll be hugely helpful toward reaching that goal, plus you definitely need her to do mass rescue-drops effectively and to quickly harvest all the desert items.
3) Legault. Functionally required. Besides 2 items that MUST be stolen, itís completely infeasible to collect the hidden items without a thief and Matthew cannot stand up to the wyverns here.
4) Florina. Functionally required. I need every single air unit on this chapter to deal with the horrible terrain. Only a whole squad of massively mobile air units will be able to hack their way through the enemy, capture Pent, sweep the rest of the chapter, and repeatedly rescue-drop the terribly slow ground forces around so that I can actually get the treasure. Florina is now good enough that sheís almost the match for one enemy wyvern and she can definitely deal effectively with enemy mages.
5) Fiora. Functionally required. Florina but worse. Also, sheís one of my lowest level units, so thatíll make her good for getting XP.
6) Heath. Functionally required. Last level was Canasís chapter, this one is Heathís. If you didnít train Heath hard last chapter and get him some speed, then you probably fail your ranking run honestly. Heath is the only air unit that can reliably take on enemy wyverns and stand up to archers.
7) Serra. Functionally required. You desperately need healing on this chapter, plus healing and staff use in general is one of the few ways to squeeze more XP out of the level in order to hit your goal of 700. Serra moves through sand like mages- at full speed. Priscilla moves through sand like a cavalier. She can move 1 space.
8) Canas. This is pretty much my one and only discretionary slot, but for me thereís no real choice. It HAD to be Canas. I have a severe lack of firepower at the moment considering that I canít let Hector fight. And all the air units have been picked and the only other people who can actually move are Canas, Lucius, and Erk. There are going to be lots of physical attacks on this level, so Canas is the only viable option. Plus his Luna is borderline necessary for beating the bosses since none of my other units can stand up to them.
Notable Units Rejected
1) Matthew. Oh how I wish I could bring Matthew. I could probably shave 3 turns off my time if I brought him. Really itís the air units + Ninian who do the heavy lifting of letting me quickly acquire the hidden items and adding another thief wouldnít make that MUCH faster, but it would let me steal the White Gem much more easily and that alone would save a couple of turns. But Matthew would be instant killed by many of these wyverns because my Matthew turned out terrible. And I desperately need some real firepower and I have only 1 semi-discretionary slot to consider.
2) Priscilla. She canít move! Her whole advantage over Serra is that she moves more squares, but on this chapter she can barely crawl along at 1 square per turn, while Serra moves full speed.
3) Erk and Lucius. If I had one more slot, Iíd definitely bring Lucius. I kept him low level partly so I could massively train him on this chapter, but Iíd forgotten how few party spots I get.
4) ANYONE else. They canít move. If you canít move, youíre worthless.

Ugh. Thereís only so much that tactics can do for you on this chapter. Ultimately, you either have the stats or you donít. I donít. My Florinaís defense is terrible and her speed just isnít good enough to avoid being doubled by quick wyverns while carrying someone. And that means thereís no way to do this that isnít luck based.

Well, thereís really no choice to be made here. I MUST immediately break left with all my air units and immediately take down both archers. Thatís my best chance to get Legault in position to steal that mageís Guiding Ring. Then I need to clear a path through the wyverns and mages for someone- probably Florina- to fly north and grab Pent. Then she has to get back with him alive. Meanwhile, the other two fliers and Legault are going to need to prevent the wyverns from swarming us.

That leaves a grand total of ZERO combat units on the main front. Hector canít be allowed to fight. My Canas is about to hit level 20 and has only 5 uses of flux left and promoted units gain almost no XP, so HE canít be allowed to fight. I just need to hold the line against the huge horde and waste their time while grinding up some XP for Ninian and Serra without killing many enemies until Fiora or someone can come back.

Somehow Iíll have to use those 0 combat units to quickly take down Paul first though. But I absolutely must give the kill to Fiora or someone whoíll gain 100 XP from it. So ultimately, my options are severely constrained. Thereís only one viable plan and it uses this formation.

The more combat-skilled air units (Florina and Heath) will lead the charge against the archers while Fiora concentrates on dropping Legault into position with Ninianís help. Legault should be positioned to grab the ocean seal on turn 1. Canas needs to be able to move up and fight promptly, but itís absolutely imperative that the left slots go to air units and Ninian, so heíll have to take what he can get.


The Characters:

Pent of course is making an appearance on this chapter, but Iíll give him his character intro when he actually becomes available.




ďÖ ÖĒ ĖHawkeye, Chapter 23

The biggest dude in the game, heíll pop out of thin air on turn 2 as a green unit and try his best to join Pent in stealing my XP. Hawkeye is a quiet, taciturn, polite, and savage and ferocious berserker apparently called the ďMad Beast Warrior.Ē Heís rather mysterious and his supports basically reveal 0 about his past. We know his present: heís a guardian of a secret village in the desert and is training his daughter to succeed him. But was he born there? How did he come to work for Athos so closely? Why does his employer even need a warrior like him anyway?

Honestly, I find him to be a very interesting character and I rather like him. All the other mysterious characters in the game ultimately have their secrets brought to light in their supports- even Renault and Nergal- but Hawkeyeís story is just never fully revealed even though he gets a fair amount of screen time and has ties to several characters in both FE6 and 7. It reminds me of something Tolkien said: ďEven in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are.Ē Whatever his flaws, Iím sure youíll agree that Hawkeye is better than Tom Bombadil.

Tom could probably take him in a fight though. His starting stats are bad and his growths are bad. Heís probably better than Dorcas, but heís definitely worse than any other axe user. One of the worst pre-promotes in the game really, a fairly useful class aside.




ďÖ nevermind, I donít like any of the creepy things these guys sayĒ ĖMelth

Ugh, Paul and Jasmine. Theyíre probably some kind of Japanese thing that I just donít get. These two guys show up again and again and again. There are like 4 of them in FE6 alone- two of them even a pair of crazy twin bandits in Nabata. I donít even know how to describe them other than as weird.




And dangerous. His stats are only pretty good, but that killer axe means youíre looking at a 30% chance of instant death every time you fight him in melee.




ďI mean really, whatís up with them?Ē -Melth

Jasmine is WAY more dangerous statistically due to that significant speed boost. Hawkeye is basically on par with Paul, but Jasmine will wreck him.




Honestly that handaxe is as much of a problem as Paulís killer axe because it expands this guyís attack range too much. That he has a white gem means I canít even try to fight him until Legault has some time on his hands.




And the two of them have an A support with each other, so if they ever get close then they receive rather huge bonuses. Donít let that happen. These guys are seriously hard to beat because you canít bring any of your A-list fighters to this chapter while these guys hit harder than anyone fought previously. And the desert terrain and fog make it almost impossible to approach them safely or to have people team up and kill them. Youíve got to kill Paul ASAP so they canít pair up and become nearly unbeatable.


Playing Through




First things first. Note that Legault did not Wait on this square, he used a torch. That works just the same, but it means that when he gets rescue-dropped off, heíll reveal a big area. I need all the vision I can get.




Heath and Florina pave the way by killing the two archers, then Fiora- assisted by Ninian- will get Legault dropped and ready next to the mage with the guiding ring.

EVERYONE on this chapter is packing a vulnerary and theyíll be chugging them almost non-stop.

Iím not sure exactly which of my flyers will be finishing Paul and Jasmine, but Iím betting itís Fiora or Heath, so each one starts with an axereaver as well as iron weapons and a javelin.

Canas has a nearly broken Flux tome because I was too greedy on chapter 21 and didnít buy a second because I couldnít use the silver card for the purchase. So Iím going to have to pay a higher price by having him fight with the hugely expensive Luna instead. Donít make that kind of mistake, itís my second biggest blunder of the LP. He also has a Guiding Ring since heís nearly level 20 and a heal staff so he can jump in on the healing and XP generation.

Legault has a torch and a wyrmslayer to deal with the fog and the wyverns.

And Serra is loaded up with staves of all kinds. Heal, Mend for when her terrible magic power means she canít heal enough, Torch for extra XP generation, Barrier for even more XP generation. Barrier is less cost-effective for this purpose than Torch, but it generates more XP and Iím concerned that every little bit will count. Each enemy kill gives me like 5 XP, so a few uses of Barrier over Torch will quickly add up to extra kills.




After Ninian danced for her, she could rearrange Florinaís equipment before dropping Legaul, thereby making sure everyone in the area can counterattack the several nearby mages (without killing the one with the Guiding Ring).




With torched Legault dropped, most of the nearby map is revealed, so I know how to get Fiora just out of range of the LEFT wyverns. Attracting one of the top wyverns is much less of a problem.




I hadnít actually checked the exact XP and price numbers of Barrier before doing this chapter, I just remembered that Barrier generated more than Torch. Probably I should have just been using Torch staves instead for financial efficiency while generating extra XP, but this works too. Either way, Iím wasting money in order to squeeze out extra XP.




On the enemy turn, Pent kills like 10 units. Thereís no way to prevent that. Darn it.




And Hawkeye poofs out of thin air. You can see that I used Ninian to lure the wyvern riders and Paul to me. If I didnít do that, he might have paired up with Jasmine and then I could never have safely got the White Gem from Jasmine later.




Although Iím at risk of getting overwhelmed on the right, Iíve got to push on and grab Pent ASAP no matter the cost. From this position, Florina will be able to do it- assuming he doesnít move again. If he moves, I might well be sunk since I might not retrieve him before he kills another 10 enemies or the like.




Legault steals that darned guiding ring. Heís in deep trouble. He was hit by the mage, so any of the 3 wyverns in range could kill him now- as could the other mage. I need to find some way to kill them all.




Heath has the speed to take down this wyvern. If Heath couldnít do this, it would be impossible for me to properly complete this chapter. And with him in place, Legault is safe from the left wyverns.




Since I donít want Hector fighting, he just recruits Hawkeye. Hawkeye at least can gain some XP. Just not much because heís promoted.




Ninian took a hit, so Serra heals her. Serra is way more fragile than Ninian and now sheís in the line of fire too, so Iíd better find a way to wall for them and kill all the flying threats. Canas + Ninian + Hawkeye can do it and block Paul at once, but just barely.




Nice, that saves me a bit of cash at least. Now at this point I had to cross my fingers and pray that neither Hawkeye nor Paul critted the other. This chapter is very luck based and thatís really stupid and annoying.




Phew, neither of them did. NowÖ this is still a crisis waiting to happen, but at least most of the initial wyverns are dead as turn 3 begins. Itís going to be darned hard to let Fiora kill Paul. For one thing, I need to weaken him enough that she can actually kill him. For another, I probably need to take out that archer. Ninian will have to spend her dance letting Fiora actually get into position. And that leaves both fronts shorthanded.




HAHAHHAHAHHAHHA! Victory is mine! Pent is the real enemy on this chapter. Fortunately he didnít move last turn- heíd slaughtered everything in range the turn before so there was no reason for him to.




Thereís no way to have someone heal Legault, so he has to drink a vulnerary and equip his wyrmslayer. Any wyvern can 2-hit kill him, so I need to make sure thereís never more than 1 wyvern alive at once and have him keep chugging those vulneraries.




Fiora flies over to the east front and Serra mends her up so she can face the enemy wave after killing Paul. Theyíre mostly weak units, but still dangerous.




Sweet! More speed! Iíve said that Bowieís speed growth is good, but mine is still very lucky. Thatís a short term blessing of course. Heíll almost certainly slam into his cap, but the short term is all I need good luck for.




Again, I had to just hope for no crit here as I weakened Paul for Fiora.




Yes! Apparently I didnít actually screencap the level she got though. Reverse engineering it from the previous and later level screencaps though, she gained Hp and Str and Skil and thatís all. Meh.




Legault gets a much worse level fighting the wyverns.




Ok, so there was about a 60% chance that I would have lost last turn. And there wasnít a darned thing I could do about it. The problem is that this jerk here in the fog near Pent has an IRON lance rather than steel. This means heís fast enough to double Florina when her speed is halved by carrying Pent. Now if she had average Def or above average HP, that would be fine. Sheíd 100% live with 1 HP. Thatís how I beat this chapter on max ranking runs before. But my Florina has terrible Def and moderately bad HP, so the Wyvern rider could 2-hit kill her and doubles her. Now Fiora canít do this, because Fiora has much less HP guaranteed due to no Angelic robe. And Heath canít do it because if Heath is up there, Legault and Florina couldnít survive against the bottom wyverns. So this was the only strategy option Ė other than just letting Pent continue his rampage indefinitely and thereby not getting the sidequest- and it had about 60% odds of failure because of my bad levels earlier.

This chapter is really, really stupid. To be perfectly blunt, I recommend you just save-state or RNG manipulate through it if the units you need to use were stat screwed in critical ways. I didnít do that because I pledged not to, but really thatís what you should do here. It is a luck-based chapter.




Hereís the position as turn 4 begins. Paul is down, but there are a dangerous number of archers around and Florina is deep in enemy territory.
Thereís a swarm of enemies on the right who I canít actually fight with anyone but Fiora because no one else will gain enough XP.
Legault and Heath are completely stalled out. Every turn they just barely take down 1 wyvern while Legault gets injured and has to drink a vulnerary. And every turn another wyvern spawns. Meanwhile he clock is ticking and I still have 6 items of various sorts to acquire all across the map.




I can at least get one item this way.




Yep, the body ring goes straight to Merlinus.




Florina flees and drinks her vulnerary. Again, thereís not much for it but to trust to luck and hope that either the wyvern rider misses her once or she crits him after her first attack. I just checked the numbers though and sheíd actually be OK (as long as she drank a vulnerary) if I had her wielding a slim lance instead of an iron lance. So if I have to restart, thatís what Iíll do. Since almost all enemy wyvern riders have steel lances and that one was apparently hidden in the fog and Pent didnít feel like fighting him so I didnít know he was there, I didnít anticipate this problem to begin with. Thatís fog of war for you.


YES! Canas, youíre the man! He was about 4 XP from level 20 after hitting Paul so I gave him the level and now Iíll have Ninian dance for him so he can promote. Then Iíll finally have 2 healers, which is wonderful for this chapter and will be amazing going forward too. I can finally dump the deadweight Priscilla off the team from now on most of the time.




Fiora scores a wonderful level as the main battle continues on the right. Oddly, itís actually the SPEED Iím most glad to see. My Fiora has been solid in Str and Def but started off horrible for speed and that meant that she couldnít double anything, so sheís been really hard to train.




But weíve still got kind of a bad situation on our hands. Jasmine is lurking just offscreen. I have tons more items to get and I can barely even hold the line on any front and itís already turn 4.




Those are pretty much the sweetest promotion gains imaginable. This is one of the best Canases Iíve ever seen- even an average one is awesomely powerful. Move over Bramimond, thereís a new legendary dark wizard in Elibe.




Turn 5, Florina did get a lucky crit and kill the wyvern pest. Otherwise the status quo continues. Legault and Heath just barely keep the wyverns on the bottom left in check- and now mages and shamans are starting to spawn. Hordes of enemies keep pouring in out of the fog to the northeast. But now Canas can heal and soon Florina will be ready to rejoin the fight. If I can survive this turn, I can definitely win the battle. Itís just a question of how long it takes.




Legault drinks his last vulnerary. Fortunately, thatís the last bottom front wyvern.




I want to feed all these enemies to Fiora if I can because sheís my lowest level unit so she gains the most XP. Ninian helps with that.




More useless staff use just to boost my XP.




Phew, Florina has reached them safety. Now I can pass Pent off to someone useless like Hector and then get Florina into the action. Thinks are looking up.




A beautiful sight!




Turn 6, she passed Pent off to Hawkeye actually so that she can immediately fight this cavalier. Remember, Give is just like Trade in that it doesnít end your turn and you can still do things like attack or trade or drink a vulnerary.




Fiora runs back to help Heath and Legault. The bottom left wyverns are gone, but mages and shamans are coming.




One of them gives Heath another speed level. Man, heís actually turning out kinda suckily for the long term, but in the short run speed is all I care about.




Oh. There were 2 northern wyverns that just hadnít shown themselves. Ok, this is looking bad. Legault canít heal and is 1 hit from death. I only have 2 fighting units in the area. Heath is badly injured.




Well he javelins down the wyvern Fiora had injured and Serra runs in and heals him. Now I need to protect her too of course.




Courtesy of Ninian, Florina soars across the map and takes down the other wyvern. That will let Fiora help form a fence to keep the assorted wizards off of Legault.




Meanwhile, I need to start fighting Jasmine as soon as possible, so Canas heals Hawkeye. Man, that sounds better every time I read it. Canas can heal people now! How awesome is that?




And Ninin gets another respectable level on the next turn. Thatís 54 avoid right now people and sheís barely half-grown.




Hey look! Canas can heal people now! The javelin fence mowed down those mages, as you can see. That meant Legault could take a vulnerary from Heath and drink it and now I can start rescue chaining him around.




Turn 7 I believe, Ninian helps me do just that. Hawkeye and Jasmine exchanged handaxe fire previously, so once I drop Legault in his range as bait, I should be able to steal from him and then kill him in one turn.




Turn 8, I finally got the darned thing. Now I have 1 turn to collect the 4 remaining items and kill all the remaining enemies!




More wasteful barrier staff use.




And more wasteful healing.





Even when I win these guys have to ruin it.




Classic my Florina. One of the worst Iíve seen in a long time, but at least her Strength is good. Not a single point of Def gained in 17 levels though!




Legault gets the Eclipse tome.




And everyone gets in position for rescue dropping Legault over to the next set of items after he grabs Filaís Might.




Hector talks to Pent, who says a bunch of stupid stuff and then stays a green unit.




Ok so, this is actually my second run. See, on my FIRST try I had Heath go left with the other air units to help Legault. On turn 12 I killed the shaman Iíd been keeping alive after getting all the items. And thenÖ I didnít win. No.

It turns out there were some enemies hidden in the top right for no darned reason at all. Out of the initial swarm of top right enemies you can see on the initial map, one of the two nomads and the brigand and one of the cavaliers just doesnít move south while the others do. There seems to be no point to this other than to screw you over if youíre doing a ranking run. Have I mentioned this chapter is really obnoxiously designed?




More XP grind healing.




Legault gets the light brand while Heath engages the top right enemies.




I hope Iíve hit 700 total by now, but I havenít actually been keeping track.




Pretty good, Heath.




Final turn coming up,







Itís turn 13 and Iím about to win.




Fiora kills the last shaman and gets some much needed speed. I win! 4 turns overtime. With better units I could have cut that down a little bit, but thereís no way I could have done it in 9.




Hector gives Pent all the credit for our hardest-earned victory and then reveals our mission to a stranger.




Excellent. Iíd love to spend more time with the most troublesome enemy Iíve had to deal with to date.




Yes! I wasnít sure I got the sidequest or not until now.




One by one apparently the whole party stumbles into concealed pit traps or something and falls into a secret underground lair. Without noticing any of the others disappearing.


Total Restarts: 12 (Stupid top right hidden units for no reason)
Turn Surplus: 4 (Ouch)
Things I Regret Missing: The lockpick on chapter 11, that darned archer on chapter 11, this one brigand who attacked Marcus on chapter 12, 2 more brigands who ignored everyone else to attack Marcus on chapter 13x, and 2 archers who ignored Hector and Dorcas (DORCAS!) to attack Marcus on chapter 14, like 10 more enemies I could have killed if Hector could have survived one more turn on chapter18, and Uhai who decided to take a 100% chance of death to Sain over a free hit on Hector, the chance to finish shopping properly with my silver card on chapter 21, the armorslayer that I have acquired if not for a stupid minor mistake on chapter 22, and these 3 wyvern riders who decided they preferred a 0% chance to hit Isadaora and then 100% chance of death against her to fighting a low level Heath.


SoÖ. yeah. Thatís the worst chapter in the whole game. No question about it. No character development worth mentioning. Nonsensical plot. Pointless fight. Horrible, horrible map with every conceivable way to screw over a max ranking player- including the very nasty surprise of some units on the top right just staying put in the fog so that you think youíre going to win when actually youíre not. As I said, I honestly recommend you just RNG manipulate or save state your way through it. The game designers didnít take it seriously and neither should you. As I recall, thereís a way to guarantee that a non-thief finds an item, but Iím having trouble finding the video of how to do that.

Melth fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Mar 11, 2015

Sorites
Sep 10, 2012

I think the guys in the northeast are there to oppose you if you drive north along the plains tiles before moving west into the desert.

Nihilarian
Oct 2, 2013


Hawkeye's not very good but at least he looks cool.

D3m3
Feb 28, 2013

Why do birds suddenly appear every time you are near?
Ugh, desert levels. Desert...levels...
They are the worst. It's a grand tradition, isn't it? A level where you just go "screw you, game" and it wants to screw you right back.

...And then I played Awakening and discovered that I had developed Desert Level Stockholm Syndrome, and now felt lonely and disoriented crossing deserts that didn't hate that I was alive. Now my own complaints ring hollow to me.

vilkacis
Feb 16, 2011

Melth posted:

Iím sure youíll agree that Hawkeye is better than Tom Bombadil.

I most certainly do not agree, you dastard :argh:

Artix
Apr 26, 2010

He's finally back,
to kick some tail!
And this time,
he's goin' to jail!

Melth posted:

One of the worst Iíve seen in a long time, but at least her Strength is good. Not a single point of Def gained in 17 levels though!

Son, she's not even promoted yet. Get on my level. :colbert:

D3m3 posted:

Ugh, desert levels. Desert...levels...
They are the worst. It's a grand tradition, isn't it? A level where you just go "screw you, game" and it wants to screw you right back.

...And then I played Awakening and discovered that I had developed Desert Level Stockholm Syndrome, and now felt lonely and disoriented crossing deserts that didn't hate that I was alive. Now my own complaints ring hollow to me.

:unsmigghh:

Artix fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Mar 11, 2015

FPzero
Oct 20, 2008

Game Over
Return of Mido

Artix posted:

Son, she's not even promoted yet. Get on my level. :colbert:

Was gonna say, shades of Lyn right here.

David Corbett
Feb 6, 2008

Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.
FE4 had a couple of brutal desert levels, too. Chapters 5 and 7 have sections that can just go die in a fire. It didn't help that the maps were so drat big then.

But even there, I don't think it reached quite this level of BS. The reliance on perfect tactics is OK, but combining that with imperfect information and RNG bullshit confirms that I was correct to never bother with a ranked run. Clearly for way more dedicated people than me. My preference in FE has always more been to crush my enemies, see them driven before me and hear the lamentations of their women.

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!

Artix posted:

Son, she's not even promoted yet. Get on my level. :colbert:


:unsmigghh:

Oh wow, I didn't notice before that you're THE Artix. Awesome. It was your LP that inspired me to make this one.

Yeah, I was thinking about how your Lyn didn't gain any Def till 32x as I wrote that. That's really remarkable bad luck, particularly considering that Lyn has better Def growth. On the other hand, Florina is a character who needs to be on the front lines more than Lyn -especially in a run like this. So while my luck with the character in question isn't as bad, it might be more painful.

ChaosArgate
Oct 10, 2012

Why does everyone think I'm going to get in trouble?

Artix posted:

Son, she's not even promoted yet. Get on my level. :colbert:


:unsmigghh:

It took another 3 levels until that Lyn got a point of Def. I'm disappointed that she did.

MarquiseMindfang
Jan 6, 2013

vriska (vriska)
Sort of late to the party, but re: all the CON chat, if you don't like it, wouldn't tying it to weapon ranks be a better idea? Weapon ranks increase steadily over the course of the game, represent a character's mastery of their weapon of choice, and would make a logical choice. Get rid of rank requirements to use weapons, allow anyone to use any weapon of their class, but each weapon has a "target" rank instead, and using the weapon while below the recommended rank gives you a hit to your AS because you're clumsy and not experienced enough to utilise it properly. So if you have a D in Thunder magic, and attempt to use the B-rank Thoron, you take a hit of 6 AS or so for using something above your pay grade. Maybe even if you use something below your current rank, you could give it an accuracy or crit bonus. Might have to slow weapon EXP gain to compensate for this, or cap weapon levels at various character levels or something.

Something like that, anyway.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

Those two bandits are basically a running gag throughout the series.

You see the joke is that they're strongly implied to be gay lovers.

:shepicide:

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!

vilkacis posted:

I most certainly do not agree [that Hawkeye is better than Tom Bombadil], you dastard :argh:


The mad beast warrior is a scary fellow,
Bright blue his loincloth is, and his hair is yellow!
None has ever trained him yet, though Hawkeye is promoted
His pecks are stronger pecks, but his stats are hopeless!




Dr Pepper posted:

Those two bandits are basically a running gag throughout the series.

You see the joke is that they're strongly implied to be gay lovers.

:shepicide:

And explicitly are twin brothers. Yuck. But the thing is, besides Rose and Maggie and Victor and Vince and Pain and Agony and Paul and Jasmine, there are also several other lone bandit type people with the same portrait. Who are also invariably weird and crazy.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

It's not necessary that they're literally brothers.

Part of the gay stereotype in Japanese pop culture is that one guy will call his partner the words that literally translate "brother" or "big brother".

MarquiseMindfang
Jan 6, 2013

vriska (vriska)

Dr Pepper posted:

Those two bandits are basically a running gag throughout the series.

You see the joke is that they're strongly implied to be gay lovers.

:shepicide:

I always sort of took the main joke of them to be like the Ugly Sisters in Cinderella. Ugly, obsessed with themselves and thinking they're beautiful, and completely divorced from reality.

Sorites
Sep 10, 2012

Zero-requirement chapters are a glitch, right? They were meant to have requirements, and thus have tolerances?

I wonder how the desert map would feel if your buffer wasn't being eaten up by all the zero-requirement chapters.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



I find it kind of odd that you choose to spoiler a guy that has already been mentioned in the thread, let alone the fact that you've gone into deeper plot spoilers in the LP already.

edit: you also referred to Fiora as Priscilla once, and called Heath a girl. You also called him Bowie once, but maybe that's a joke. :v:

Manatee Cannon fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Mar 11, 2015

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!

Manatee Cannon posted:

You also called him Bowie once, but maybe that's a joke. :v:

Yeah, when I introduced Heath last chapter I commented that I can't un-see his hair as a green version of David Bowie's in labyrinth.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010



I figured it was something like that, I just couldn't think of it.

vilkacis
Feb 16, 2011

Melth posted:

The mad beast warrior is a scary fellow,
Bright blue his loincloth is, and his hair is yellow!
None has ever trained him yet, though Hawkeye is promoted
His pecks are stronger pecks, but his stats are hopeless!

:golfclap:


Dr Pepper posted:

It's not necessary that they're literally brothers.

Part of the gay stereotype in Japanese pop culture is that one guy will call his partner the words that literally translate "brother" or "big brother".

Isn't that a yakuza thing, too? I remember someone trying to explain that Hammer in Xenogears was supposed to come off as a low-ranking gangster.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!
I'm not sure what was the original japanese text, but if it involves a lot of "ANIKI!!!" it's a yakuza rank thing, or something similar with mad respect to a senior/higher rank. Sometimes you see it when a guy is really respectful of a girl at times.

Sorites
Sep 10, 2012

There's a similar custom in certain traditional, old-school Chinese cultures. It can start out with using the Mandarin for "older brother" as an honorific for a male of higher standing, but the title will climb up the family tree as the level of deference increases. If you watch Chinese period pieces with overly-literal English subtitles on, this can lead to moments like a new bride calling her husband "grandfather".

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.
Really they're the ambiguously gay Yakuza bandits. They exist to show up in the desert as bosses to be killed by you. They even show up as Laguz in FE10

Melth
Feb 16, 2015

Victory and/or death!

Onmi posted:

They even show up as Laguz in FE10

I believe the proper technical term is "sub-humans". Bleed the half-breed!

Melth fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Mar 12, 2015

Dr. Buttass
Aug 12, 2013

AWFUL SOMETHING
Hey man, be nice. Just because they're disabled doesn't mean they're not people.

Fionordequester
Dec 27, 2012

Actually, I respectfully disagree with you there. For as obviously flawed as this game is, there ARE a lot of really good things about it. The presentation and atmosphere, for example, are the most immediate things. No other Yu-Gi-Oh game goes out of the way to really make
So, in other news, it seems to me like Lyn and Eliwood are a little underpowered, especially considering how tough it can be to promote them, and Hector is a little overpowered, so I've been thinking of how to balance them. What do you all think of the following buffs and nerfs?

code:
Lyn:

HP: 16>18  70>80%
Str:  4>5  40>50%
Skl:  7>8     60%
Spd:    9     60%
Lck:  5>7  55>60%
Def:  2>4  20>25%
Res:    0     30%
Con:  5>7

Eliwood:

HP: 18>19  80>85%
Str:  5>6  45>55%
Skl:  5>6     50%
Spd:    7  40>45%
Lck:  7>5     45%
Def:  5>6  30>35%
Res:    0     35%
Con:  7>9

Hector:

HP: 19>20     90%
Str:    7     60%
Skl:    4  45>40%
Spd:    5  35>30%
Lck:    3     30%
Def:    8  50>45%
Res:    0     25%
Con:   13
I made those numbers around the idea that their stats should be made around patterns. Hence, each of their starting HP and Str totals is different by one point, their Def stats differ by 2 points, each of their Luck is different by 2 points, and etc. And of course, the same applies to their growths.

Not only does this make Lyn and Eliwood a good bit stronger, but it also makes more sense in-universe. Eliwood should be fairly equal to Hector in combat proficiency since in-universe, he's supposed to be very slightly better than Hector (they have regular sparring matches, and Eliwood won a teensy bit more of them than Hector). And yet, if you take two of their Level 1 selves into the Arena, Hector is clearly FAR better than Eliwood, to the point where he can literally 2HKO him, and has 48% accuracy despite WTD. And in return, Eliwood only does 3 Damage per hit to him, and doesn't even double.

So, the number changes also do a bit to address that, so that Hector will usually lose to Eliwood with WTD taken into account, but will usually win without WTD being taken into account. So, it still doesn't perfectly match up in in-universe terms...but it matches up better than it did before. The only other way I could think of would be either ditching the number patterns entirely, or giving Hector 7 Defense, and then giving Lyn 5 Defense, but that seems a bit unreasonable to me, especially since Kent himself has only 5 Defense.

As for Con...alright, so apparently men CAN pretty easily beat women at arm-wrestling matches...but even still, Lyn doesn't really feel like she should be less physically hardy than Canas, especially considering both her background, and the fact that she's a warrior who fights in melee combat. Plus, having only 5 Con kind of works against her I believe, so I think 7 is about right for her.

So what do you all think?

Fionordequester fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Mar 12, 2015

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.

Fionordequester posted:

So, in other news, it seems to me like Lyn and Eliwood are a little underpowered, especially considering how tough it can be to promote them, and Hector is a little overpowered, so I've been thinking of how to balance them. What do you all think of the following buffs and nerfs?

code:
Lyn:

HP: 16>18  70>80%
Str:  4>5  40>50%
Skl:  7>8     60%
Spd:    9     60%
Lck:  5>7  55>60%
Def:  2>4  20>25%
Res:    0     30%
Con:  5>7

Eliwood:

HP: 18>19  80>85%
Str:  5>6  45>55%
Skl:  5>6     50%
Spd:    7  40>45%
Lck:  7>5     45%
Def:  5>6  30>35%
Res:    0     35%
Con:  7>9

Hector:

HP: 19>20     90%
Str:    7     60%
Skl:    4  45>40%
Spd:    5  35>30%
Lck:    3     30%
Def:    8  50>45%
Res:    0     25%
Con:   13
I made those numbers around the idea that their stats should be made around patterns. Hence, each of their starting HP and Str totals is different by one point, their Def stats differ by 2 points, each of their Luck is different by 2 points, and etc. And of course, the same applies to their growths.

Not only does this make Lyn and Eliwood a good bit stronger, but it also makes more sense in-universe. Eliwood should be fairly equal to Hector in combat proficiency since in-universe, he's supposed to be very slightly better than Hector (they have regular sparring matches, and Eliwood won a teensy bit more of them than Hector). And yet, if you take two of their Level 1 selves into the Arena, Hector is clearly FAR better than Eliwood, to the point where he can literally 2HKO him, and has 48% accuracy despite WTD. And in return, Eliwood only does 3 Damage per hit to him, and doesn't even double.

So, the number changes also do a bit to address that, so that Hector will usually lose to Eliwood with WTD taken into account, but will usually win without WTD being taken into account. So, it still doesn't perfectly match up in in-universe terms...but it matches up better than it did before. The only other way I could think of would be either ditching the number patterns entirely, or giving Hector 7 Defense, and then giving Lyn 5 Defense, but that seems a bit unreasonable to me, especially since Kent himself has only 5 Defense.

As for Con...alright, so apparently men CAN pretty easily beat women at arm-wrestling matches...but even still, Lyn doesn't really feel like she should be less physically hardy than Canas, especially considering both her background, and the fact that she's a warrior who fights in melee combat. Plus, having only 5 Con kind of works against her I believe, so I think 7 is about right for her.

So what do you all think?

overall consider that 5% of a growth is +1 more stat on average. But mostly, test it, see how it turns out run the "Averages" in an averages calculator.

Fionordequester
Dec 27, 2012

Actually, I respectfully disagree with you there. For as obviously flawed as this game is, there ARE a lot of really good things about it. The presentation and atmosphere, for example, are the most immediate things. No other Yu-Gi-Oh game goes out of the way to really make

Onmi posted:

overall consider that 5% of a growth is +1 more stat on average. But mostly, test it, see how it turns out run the "Averages" in an averages calculator.

Actually it's an increase of about 2+ more stats on average, at least if you don't skip any levels at promotion. So overall, Hector would lose 2 points from each area at 20/20. Which...still isn't a lot, but I didn't want to fall into the trap of overcompensating, you know?

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Krumbsthumbs
Oct 23, 2010

2nd Place.
1st Loser.
Isn't a 5% growth a +2 over all for a level 1 guy? Technically 1.9, but eh, close enough.

A 2 con boost to Eliwood is an enormous boost to his damage. That's mean he can use Steel weapons with only a small penalty. Lyn doesn't really need a con boost, but if she got one she'd be able to use Killer weapons much more effectively. I guess this would make Lyn a far, far better archer since she can use a handful of decent bows without losing 1/4 of her speed.

The strength growth boosts are a little high. I'd keep Lyn's growths the same, maybe a 5% boost to her strength and defense, but a bump to her starting stats might not be a bad idea. Eliwood is meant to be a little weak early, but he finishes strong. If anything I'd give him a little better speed growth and a better cap.

Edit: The more I look at it, just make Lyn into Eirika. Eirika is already "Lyn, but better" so if she was Eirika it'd be great. Now if only we can get Ephraim into Eliwood's shoes...

Krumbsthumbs fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Mar 12, 2015

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